[Archived] Cameron's thoughts on Europe

[den]

If someone can tell me what we gain from the EU, do let me know.

I tried.

[SydneyRover]

One thing that intrigues me is the fact politicians like Miliband say europe is good for us....yet they`re scared to death of letting the people decide in a referendum.

We`ve fought wars with dictators....yet they dictate what`s good for us!

That's not dictatorship, that's a representative democracy.

No government has ruled this country by way of referendums.

[jim mk2]

GDP falls yet again, heading for the fabled triple dip but we are all worried about Europe

The referendum does nothing to help the economy and creates only years of uncertainty for business with Europe - so well done to Cameron for that

Cameron talks about the benefits of enforced austerity in the EU yet he might take a look in the mirror - economic stagnation, double and possibly triple dip recessions and the public deficit wider now than before the Tories started slashing spending.

[Mike E]

I tried.

I fear I completely missed your post until Paul pointed it out. Food for thought I must say. I'll use the excuse that I'm only 21 and assume I know everything haha.

[thenodrog]

Preventing migrant workers entering the UK would probably bring about the collapse of UK horticulture and agriculture (the food side). Without a migrant workforce production and harvest would be impossible as the industry is reliant on these people. I suspect other industries would be severely impacted as well though can't argue the point with any knowledge.

I'm not having that Paul. Since we first put on woad and painted caves we have managed to feed ourselves for thousands of years .... until according to you Poland joined the EU in 2004 whereupon we immediately turned into a nation of helpless drones.

btw... Some more food for thought regarding a non member and yet the EU's 4th biggest trading partner.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Switzerland%E2%80%93European_Union_relations

[Amo]

One thing that intrigues me is the fact politicians like Miliband say europe is good for us....yet they`re scared to death of letting the people decide in a referendum.

We`ve fought wars with dictators....yet they dictate what`s good for us!

A dictatorship is the best form of government.

It's also the worst.

[Mike E]

A dictatorship is the best form of government.

It's also the worst.

Works on Top Gear haha.

[JAL]

The referendum does nothing to help the economy and creates only years of uncertainty for business with Europe - so well done to Cameron for that

Cameron talks about the benefits of enforced austerity in the EU yet he might take a look in the mirror - economic stagnation, double and possibly triple dip recessions and the public deficit wider now than before the Tories started slashing spending.

Hasnt this referendum come about because of the Tories fears of losing voters to the UKIP party which is kind of linked to those 'dissident Tories that most likely stand to lose their seats to these guys. If this was'nt the scenario surely Cameron would never be looking into this.

[Paul]

I'm not having that Paul. Since we first put on woad and painted caves we have managed to feed ourselves for thousands of years .... until according to you Poland joined the EU in 2004 whereupon we immediately turned into a nation of helpless drones.

You can "have" whatever you want Gordon. Prior to the current wave of Eastern European workers, mainly Polish, but several other nationalities as well, the predominant migrant labour force in the industries was Portugese. As their home economy improved the migrant labour returned home and this coincided with the influx of Polish labour.

For the last 20 years UK horticulture has been highly dependent on migrant labour from the EU. Agriculture is less dependent as much harvesting work is mechanical. It really depends where one draws the line between the two sectors. Is the man with 200 acres of sprouts a farmer or a grower?

Helpless drones is your description not mine. I simply know recruiting 30-40 UK nationals on short term 4-6 month contracts in horticulture every year is something we gave up trying to do 20 years ago.

[jim mk2]

Hasnt this referendum come about because of the Tories fears of losing voters to the UKIP party which is kind of linked to those 'dissident Tories that most likely stand to lose their seats to these guys. If this was'nt the scenario surely Cameron would never be looking into this.

Precisely. The irony is Cameron will campaign to stay in the EU while much of his party fights to leave. The referendum could split the Tory party like no other issue since free trade more than 150 years ago. The Tories have not won an election outright since 1992, and if they continue on this path it will be another 21 years until they win another.

[Steve Moss]

The Tories need to cleanse their party of the unintelligent, the uninformed, and the xenophobic. Otherwise they will be in the wilderness for a long time.

I thought they occupied either the UKIP or British National Party (I confuse the two).

Surely Cameron would gain kudos from the public, and possibly leverage against Brussels, by inviting the public's input on their future?

[Stuart]

Helpless drones is your description not mine. I simply know recruiting 30-40 UK nationals on short term 4-6 month contracts in horticulture every year is something we gave up trying to do 20 years ago.

Is that down to a lack of applicants (I'm thinking "good work for students"), or wages which are much more "reasonable" to a family with three generations (3, 4 or even 5 migrant workers) in the same rented house covering the household bills, than they might be for a traditional UK couple trying to fly the nest and set up a life for themselves and have a family of their own?

They work hard, don't get me wrong, but this is a false economy. By continuing to employ migrant workers in lower paid roles means that the wages are driven further down (year on year relative terms) to a point where ONLY migrant workers can afford to take them. Either that or it means that children will never afford to move out of their parents home; a situation which is crippling the housing market which much of our economy relies on.

[Paul]

To get an understanding one needs a bit of history, we are basically discussing seasonal workers (now classified as harvets workers). Traditionally these are people who worked "on the land", if you like, moving from one business to another as different crops reached the harvest (season) period. Just about any crop you care to mention has been harvested this way. For some workers this meant moving around the country, for others simply rotating between growers of different crops in the local area.

25 years ago teams would arrive at the appropriate time to work our season of roughly March-June. The majority of these people had worked this way for many years, if not their lives, and had begun to reach retirement. As the numbers dropped we initially looked to recruit through Job Centres. After two years of failing to find sufficient staff we moved to migrant workers, first Portugese, then eastern European when the Portugese went home. The fundamental problem being a generation of workers had reached retirement and there was no generation following behind. Our sites are based within a 20 mile radius of Manchester airport and competition for labour was then very high.

Good work for students is only true in the summer, I used to spend my summers potato harvesting, as they clearly can't fit our March-June need. It is, in my view, a misconception all migrant workers are living badly, yes you will find headlines but that is true for every topic. Yes some people who work for us share accomodation but my son, who works in retail in Manchester, HAS to share a house because he can't afford to live alone. It is not just migrant workers who work in low paid industries. One person he shares with is here from Ireland to find work. I expect the youngest of my three sons to return home after uni for similar reasons and he will have a job.

The work is low paid but is correctly and legally paid by the bulk of the industry. The minimum wage is £6.19, we have to pay by law under the Agricultural Wages Order, £6.96. This equates to £14,100 per annum. Obviously examples of exploitation can be found, I don't deny that, but this is always the headline stuff not the reality. That could give the young couple you refer to the equivalent of £28,000 pa. (most families need to bread winners these days).

My experience is most UK horticultural businesses would happily employ UK workers. It solves a lot of problems, for example when foreign workers arrve we establish who speaks English well enough to understand instruction. The English speakers are then paired with the non-English speakers so they can translate the instructions. We have to give induction in every language, everything has to be labelled in multiple languages etc. I could go on.

Using migrant workers does not drive wages down provided employers follow the law. There are many other factors which drive wages down in many industry sectors, not least in mine the supermarket and public demand for cheap food. If the public will pay more for food basics wages can increase.

[Guest Norbert]

I thought they occupied either the UKIP or British National Party (I confuse the two).

Surely Cameron would gain kudos from the public, and possibly leverage against Brussels, by inviting the public's input on their future?

UKIP=Basically the right wing of the Conservative Party-hates the EU, wants immigration controls, Grammar Schools and so on. Usually found in very middle class parts of cities, or wealthy rural areas.

BNP=Hates Muslims, Blacks, foreigners of all kinds, and would go round every mosque or hindu temple and kick the crap out of everyone there if they could. Usually found in areas with either loads of ethnic minorities, or isolated towns with none (e.g. Bridlington).

As for the EU, it obviously needs a hell of a lot of reform as it is unrepresentative, inefficient and doesn't know what it is for. It is a project loved by the elite as they can all get together, fill their boots and not have to worry about what we plebs think. It is neither a free trade agreement, nor a federal country like Germany or the United States but a vanity project for various veteran politicians and civil servants that the public at large has to pay for.

The only way the EU can work is if the Euro countries all join in as a 'United States of Europe' with it's own federal states (i.e. Italy, Germany and so on), whilst the more Eurosceptic countries such as ourselves, Denmark etc. regain sovereignty and become part of a larger free trade area. At the moment the EU is great at generating hot air, expenses claims, headlines in the Daily Mail and not much else.

[Steve Moss]

The only way the EU can work is if the Euro countries all join in as a 'United States of Europe' with it's own federal states (i.e. Italy, Germany and so on), whilst the more Eurosceptic countries such as ourselves, Denmark etc. regain sovereignty and become part of a larger free trade area. At the moment the EU is great at generating hot air, expenses claims, headlines in the Daily Mail and not much else.

Then get rid of it and start from scratch.

Here's an Investors Business Daily article which doesn't appear to be very EU friendly: http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials/012413-641907-britain-referendum-call-rattles-eu-gilded-cage.htm

[BuckyRover]

I saw a poll today that said that you are much more likely to want to leave the EU if you haven't been abroad in the last three years!

I enjoy being European and consider myself one. I'm not too keen on "ever closer union" however if its a choice between that and leaving I would choose to stay in.

UKIP supporters appear to be living in the 1950s. We aren't that country anymore and need as many friends as possible. However I think the people will vote to stay in. Who would we blame our problems on if we left?

[Paul Mellelieu]

Everyone knows that Cameron's position is about narrow party interest. One should always be sceptical of political figures who seek to gain advantage through one issue plebiscites rather that general elections. Want out of the EU, vote UKIP.

[thenodrog]

Helpless drones is your description not mine. I simply know recruiting 30-40 UK nationals on short term 4-6 month contracts in horticulture every year is something we gave up trying to do 20 years ago.

Just a question of reviewing the benefits system Paul. Simples.

btw I bet you rem students doing seasonal agricultural work here or in France to save up for uni. When was the last time you heard of a student doing that?

Sorry ... just seen you've been spud picking.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

I saw a poll today that said that you are much more likely to want to leave the EU if you haven't been abroad in the last three years!

I enjoy being European and consider myself one. I'm not too keen on "ever closer union" however if its a choice between that and leaving I would choose to stay in.

UKIP supporters appear to be living in the 1950s. We aren't that country anymore and need as many friends as possible. However I think the people will vote to stay in. Who would we blame our problems on if we left?

I agree with most of that. It would be madness to pull out now. Back in the day I voted against joining the EEC but too much water has gone under the bridge to consider withdrawing.

[Al]

As for migration this is another Daily Mail headline grabber. Preventing migrant workers entering the UK would probably bring about the collapse of UK horticulture and agriculture (the food side). Without a migrant workforce production and harvest would be impossible as the industry is reliant on these people. I suspect other industries would be severely impacted as well though can't argue the point with any knowledge.

.

What you really mean Paul is that your source of cheap labour would dry up and you would have to pay proper wages to Brits. If we had to pay a few bob extra for our bedding plants it would be worth it to have decent pay for the indiginous population and cut out the foreign scroungers to boot.

[thenodrog]

What you really mean Paul is that your source of cheap labour would dry up and you would have to pay proper wages to Brits. If we had to pay a few bob extra for our bedding plants it would be worth it to have decent pay for the indiginous population and cut out the foreign scroungers to boot.

Would it? Why? We have plenty unemployed .... unless they have become unemployable.

[Paul]

What you really mean Paul is that your source of cheap labour would dry up and you would have to pay proper wages to Brits. If we had to pay a few bob extra for our bedding plants it would be worth it to have decent pay for the indiginous population and cut out the foreign scroungers to boot.

So what do you feel is a proper wage?

Keeping in mind the government sets the minimum wage at 6.19 and the Agricultural Wages Board, also a government sponsored body, sets the minimum to be paid in Agriculture and Horticulture at 6.96.

You might also take in to account the British Retail Consortium supports the NMW. Will you also be calling for the BRC to pay "proper wages to Brits?" Perhaps you could pay a few bob extra for your food, clothes, shoes, electrical goods, cameras, fishing tackle, in fact anything you care to mention you buy in a retail outlet.

By all means call for decent wages for Brits but by the logic of your argument every employer paying the NMW is exploiting workers.

Ever thought about paying the proper price for milk? 3 chickens for 10 in Tesco last week.

The difficulty with your argument is it simply leads to inflation and does not improve the lot of the low paid.

I have tried to explain migrant labour is a historical part of food production in the UK. East Enders used to take their summer holidays picking hops in Kent, the examples are too numerous to mention

What you mean is why should we allow Europeans to work in the UK?

[jim mk2]

edit

[Mike E]

The bit that worries me is Europeans earning our money and sending/spending it back home. That loses our economy money doesn't it?

I generally feel that you should spend your hard-earned (for yhe most part) in the country you earn it. Obviously holidays and retirement wouldn't be included there.

[jim mk2]

The bit that worries me is Europeans earning our money and sending/spending it back home. That loses our economy money doesn't it?

I generally feel that you should spend your hard-earned (for yhe most part) in the country you earn it. Obviously holidays and retirement wouldn't be included there.

Sending money home is known as remittances and is not a significant problem according to World Bank data from 2010 which estimates that since the mid-1990s Britain has been a net-remittance receiver, in other words people send more money to Britain than people in Britain send abroad. The main countries from which remittances are sent to Britain include Australia, the United States and Canada. Britain is in 14th place place in the world in value of remittances received and the sixth place in Europe.