[Archived] 4-5-1

[Lie_still_Rover]

Don't understand the obsession, "the games progressed", "no room for strikers like Owen", "can't play two upfront".. Forgive me if I'm wrong but 4-5-1 has been around for ages. Maybe not in the premiership but certainly on the continent. I've seen plenty of teams play a 4-4-2, 4-3-3 even 3-5-2 and beat teams playing 4-5-1. It's just ridiculous.

A few years ago all the premiership teams played 4-4-2 and always got far in the champions league against plenty of 4-5-1 set ups. It's tosh, the game hasn't moved on at, it's still football, 11 vs 11. If you have two quality strikers upfront they are going to cause more problems than 1- simple. Can Rovers play a 4-4-2, yes! I'd say to get the best out of Rhodes we must! Playing a snappy counter attacking game perhaps Murphy would have more passes on too. We are too sedentary playing 4-5-1, it's not dynamic enough for us. We need 2 up top as Rhodes Can't hold the ball and bring other players into the game. Thus we end up playing deep without options on going forward!

[chaddyrovers]

didnt Rovers play 4-4-2 today with Rhodes and CKR up front today.

[RoyRover]

The best teams have worked out that the game is won and lost in midfield. If you control that, then your chance of winning are far better. You see how Germany, Borussia Dortmund or Real Madrid use it - the five stifle midfield, win the ball back and then the attacking 3 midfielders and maybe one of the holding midfielders get forward quickly to support the striker. It's a great system, when you have the players to play it. We quite clearly don't.

[Torgeir]

There will always be room for strikers like Owen.

4-5-1 and 4-3-3 is the same formation, just different 'names'.

Most teams use a midfield enforcer these days, a player that sits just infront of the back four. Using 4-4-2 with an enforcer will expose the midfield and as it's been pointed out - that's where the game is won. Spain even fielded a team with no striker (4-6-0) a couple of times to emphasise that fact.

I think a manager has to adapt the system according to the players at hand, and not vice versa. Another factor equally important to formation is style, the two go hand in hand. Personally I prefer a team set up in a traditional 4-4-2 with classic wingers ala Duff and Ripley, but we don't see teams set up that way anymore because of how it exposes the midfield.

[Andy]

There will always be room for strikers like Owen.

4-5-1 and 4-3-3 is the same formation, just different 'names'.

Most teams use a midfield enforcer these days, a player that sits just infront of the back four. Using 4-4-2 with an enforcer will expose the midfield and as it's been pointed out - that's where the game is won. Spain even fielded a team with no striker (4-6-0) a couple of times to emphasise that fact.

I think a manager has to adapt the system according to the players at hand, and not vice versa. Another factor equally important to formation is style, the two go hand in hand. Personally I prefer a team set up in a traditional 4-4-2 with classic wingers ala Duff and Ripley, but we don't see teams set up that way anymore because of how it exposes the midfield.

Completely agree - a good manager will assess what he has at hand and fit a system around them, not shoehorn players into a system they prefer.

Big Sam, coincidentally, is a master of this and is a reason why I believe with a more talented squad, he'd show that he's no long ball merchant.

Also agree that the 4-5-1 is exactly the same as the 4-3-3, just changes throughout the game depending on the phase (attack/defence).

[Majiball]

Completely agree - a good manager will assess what he has at hand and fit a system around them, not shoehorn players into a system they prefer.

Big Sam, coincidentally, is a master of this and is a reason why I believe with a more talented squad, he'd show that he's no long ball merchant.

Also agree that the 4-5-1 is exactly the same as the 4-3-3, just changes throughout the game depending on the phase (attack/defence).

And yet even when given millions and millions to spunk at Newcastle it was still 1-2-3 punt. He's a master of only one thing, yes it works to a degree but yet at every club he's managed it's been the same system and different players.

[thenodrog]

And yet even when given millions and millions to spunk at Newcastle it was still 1-2-3 punt. He's a master of only one thing, yes it works to a degree but yet at every club he's managed it's been the same system and different players.

Crap that. He didn't have the time required at NUFC because Ashley replaced Shepherd within about 3 weeks of Allardyce going. Once that had happened and Ashley took to swilling ale and currying favour with the massed ranks of numptys on the Gallowgate end he was always going to be walking the plank. rem though he certainly didn't play all that stuff at Bolton when he had the midfield talents of Djorkaeff, Campo and Okocha to call on. Sure he also had Davies up top to provide a direct route when required as will always be necessary at some time but his reputation imo was originally formed in the manager's office of the billy big times who hated their pampered poodles getting rolled over by an uncompromising and skilfull northen outfit at Bolton. We had a taste of that too when Hughes was here and the likes of Wenger and Mourhino lit the blue touch paper of their lapdogs in the press and media to have us villified as Blackeye Rovers. Having the type of players to provide many options is the key to success. Wimbledon to name but one fell into the trap of playing route 1 when their best exponents of it left whilst Clough's Nottm Forest fell into the trap of playing too much passing football with no end result. Needless to say both were relegated. Arsenal too have long been accused of taking one touch too many and especially amongst their own fans. No one can win this argument.

[Majiball]

Knew you'd bite.

[thenodrog]

And that I'd be right.

[Majiball]

And that I'd be right.

If he ever gets a top job and backing over time and produces a footballing team I'll bow down as you desire.

[LeChuck]

If he ever gets a top job and backing over time and produces a footballing team I'll bow down as you desire.

Have you watched West Ham this season? They're certainly not long ball merchants.

[McClarky]

Does it really matter what formation you play on paper? I reckon the current obsession with this is just a result of 24 hour sports channels and having to fill space before and after games with some meaningless waffle. You need to get support to your centre forward and whether that comes from a 4-4-2 or a 4-5-1 or a 4-3-3 or a 3-2-3-1-1 doesn't really matter as long as you get folk up there, something Rovers haven't done well recently at all. Nobody is picked to stand in a position for 90 minutes so it's more about how teams play than what the formation is.

[Amo]

Completely agree - a good manager will assess what he has at hand and fit a system around them, not shoehorn players into a system they prefer.

Nikola Kalinic wants a word.

[Majiball]

Have you watched West Ham this season? They're certainly not long ball merchants.

I'm not sure they have a vantage point high enough that I'd medically be able to use as after 3 years of watching the sky under Sam I've only just had my neck brace removed and looking up is still and issue.

[Parsonblue]

I'm not sure they have a vantage point high enough that I'd medically be able to use as after 3 years of watching the sky under Sam I've only just had my neck brace removed and looking up is still and issue.

Well since Sam left you certainly don't need to look up when looking at a League table. Looking down and going down is all we've done since Sam left.

[jim mk2]

I'm not sure they have a vantage point high enough that I'd medically be able to use as after 3 years of watching the sky under Sam I've only just had my neck brace removed and looking up is still and issue.

Apparently intelligent person (although unable to spell "program" correctly) showing extreme lack of intelligence.

[Majiball]

Well since Sam left you certainly don't need to look up when looking at a League table. Looking down and going down is all we've done since Sam left.

I know I wanted it played down on the floor but I never envisaged the basement.

Thankfully I'm fairly certain I never called for his head although thanks to him I may need a new one long term.

Apparently intelligent person (although unable to spell "program" correctly) showing extreme lack of intelligence.

No bloody spell checker on the University computers and not allowed to download one. Thankfully spelling and grammar are not required for science.

Anyway:

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=correlation+spelling+intelligence&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-gb:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&rlz=1I7ADFA_en&redir_esc=&ei=r7oGUcS9LeSq0QXymIHgCQ#hl=en&tbo=d&rls=com.microsoft:en-gb%3AIE-Address&rlz=1I7ADFA_en&sclient=psy-ab&q=relationship+spelling+intelligence&oq=relationship+spelling+intelligence&gs_l=serp.3..0i8.2230.2230.0.4512.1.1.0.0.0.0.68.68.1.1.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.1.MY4l4jE3gao&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.41524429,d.d2k&fp=145e449a990997f1&biw=1280&bih=883

Enjoy.

[Dunnfc]

Not a fan myself of the 4-5-1. It turns a game into a midfield gritty battle, unless your Barcelona it turns a game very dour.

I have been very impressed by Wigan in recent years, i know allot gets said about Swasalona but for me 3-5-2 at Wigan looks the way forward with interchangeable wing-backs acting defensively and attacking. I know Sam tried this trick in which i felt personally was our best period of football under him.

[A cup of beans]

Here's something on the subject by the excellent Jonathan Wilson.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2013/jan/15/the-question-4231-football-tactics

[Majiball]

Bring back the old WM formation.

[thenodrog]

If he ever gets a top job and backing over time and produces a footballing team I'll bow down as you desire.

Allardyce has proved himself time and again in the top league so there's hardly any need to prove things to you is there? He's the 6th most Premier League matches under his belt after Fergy, Wenger, Moyes and Redknapp and no bad manager could be that enduring with the level of expectation and penalty for failure in the League could they?

You should stick to the facts Maj, it's what proper scientists do. There's a good read for you here if your anti-allardyce prejudice will allow.....

http://transferpriceindex.com/2012/02/all-time-best-managers-versus-transfer-expenditures-an-mxir-analysis/

Quote

"Allardyce has a well-earned reputation of managing well above financial expectations. His final four years of his six year tenure at Bolton saw him improve team performance versus the m£XIR model each year, with his final year generating a 0.522 points per match overperformance (+19.84 points over a 38 match season). Allardyce’s half season at Newcastle United was tumultuous, with a poor run of form around Christmas sealing his fate. Even with that poor run of form he was still on track to earn 0.226 points per match more than his transfer expenditures suggested (+8.59 points per season). Perhaps the greatest misalignment between expectations and performance came at Blackburn. Allardyce took a club that was sitting 19th in the table and led them to a 15th place finish. He followed up with a 10th place finish the next season. With the purchase of the club by the Venky group in November 2011, Allardyce was sacked on December 13th with the club sitting in the 13th position and 5 points clear of the relegation zone. The outrage amongst the media and other managers was loud and well placed. All Allardyce had done was steadily improve the club’s fortunes against the expectations set by transfer expenditures: -0.185 in 2008/09, -.089 in 2009/10, and -0.04 in 2010/11. Blackburn would end up finishing 15th in 2010/11 without Allardyce, while Allardyce would move on to relegated West Ham in the summer. As of this writing, Blackburn sits 17th in the Premier League table and tied on points for relegation while Allardyce has West Ham comfortably at the top of the Championship."

And we all know what happened next don't we?

There is not a chance that he is the best manager in the Premier League but history has proven that he was certainly the best manager for skint little town clubs like us and Bolton. Do you not find it significant that all 3 of his Prem teams that he presided over were consistently top half / mid table and ended up relegated in pretty quick time when he left?

[jim mk2]

No bloody spell checker on the University computers and not allowed to download one. Thankfully spelling and grammar are not required for science.

Scientists are normally sticklers for getting it right but obviously not in your case. You really need to wise up on Sam Allardyce; you've been proven wrong time and again statistically and in your arguments.

[Mike E]

I think it just means he has a life and is generally just a stickler for detail and getting it right in his actual job, rather than the jobs of others.

[BuckyRover]

Bring back the sweeper I say.

[Majiball]

Allardyce has proved himself time and again in the top league so there's hardly any need to prove things to you is there? He's the 6th most Premier League matches under his belt after Fergy, Wenger, Moyes and Redknapp and no bad manager could be that enduring with the level of expectation and penalty for failure in the League could they?

You should stick to the facts Maj, it's what proper scientists do. There's a good read for you here if your anti-allardyce prejudice will allow.....

http://transferpriceindex.com/2012/02/all-time-best-managers-versus-transfer-expenditures-an-mxir-analysis/

Quote

"Allardyce has a well-earned reputation of managing well above financial expectations. His final four years of his six year tenure at Bolton saw him improve team performance versus the m£XIR model each year, with his final year generating a 0.522 points per match overperformance (+19.84 points over a 38 match season). Allardyce’s half season at Newcastle United was tumultuous, with a poor run of form around Christmas sealing his fate. Even with that poor run of form he was still on track to earn 0.226 points per match more than his transfer expenditures suggested (+8.59 points per season). Perhaps the greatest misalignment between expectations and performance came at Blackburn. Allardyce took a club that was sitting 19th in the table and led them to a 15th place finish. He followed up with a 10th place finish the next season. With the purchase of the club by the Venky group in November 2011, Allardyce was sacked on December 13th with the club sitting in the 13th position and 5 points clear of the relegation zone. The outrage amongst the media and other managers was loud and well placed. All Allardyce had done was steadily improve the club’s fortunes against the expectations set by transfer expenditures: -0.185 in 2008/09, -.089 in 2009/10, and -0.04 in 2010/11. Blackburn would end up finishing 15th in 2010/11 without Allardyce, while Allardyce would move on to relegated West Ham in the summer. As of this writing, Blackburn sits 17th in the Premier League table and tied on points for relegation while Allardyce has West Ham comfortably at the top of the Championship."

And we all know what happened next don't we?

There is not a chance that he is the best manager in the Premier League but history has proven that he was certainly the best manager for skint little town clubs like us and Bolton. Do you not find it significant that all 3 of his Prem teams that he presided over were consistently top half / mid table and ended up relegated in pretty quick time when he left?

Science is about as much about fact as football about how long you can punt a ball. Without doubt it's shades of grey as most people can't agree on anything and everyday new theories come about.

Anyway criticing Sam is always a good way to touch a nerve back with you Theno.

Scientists are normally sticklers for getting it right but obviously not in your case. You really need to wise up on Sam Allardyce; you've been proven wrong time and again statistically and in your arguments.

What does grammar and spelling have to do with my ability to put the pieces of the puzzle together? Writing journals and all that crap is for others, not for me as it's boring and tedious.

If you want to check my facts I would ask you to post some of my comments prior to Sam's arrival. He will split the fanbase, he will waste our money on has beens etc etc it will cost us long term. It's all there in black and white and without doubt played a great role in the current disaster as they used it to their advantage with Kean. Shock horror that not one of Sam's signings made us decent money ala Bentley or RSC and even when winning 3-0 fans were screaming for better. He did a good job with Jones but don't let that detract from the many years he spent with Ireland, Bowyer and Mcphilips and of course steve Kean, lol.

I never called for his head unlike some just for him to do what he'd shown everyone he could and play a bit of football once he had the ship steady.

You can throw what you like at me, some of us have insight and vision that's what makes a good scientist not punctuation and grammar!