[Archived] 4-5-1

[thenodrog]

You can throw what you like at me, some of us have insight and vision that's what makes a good scientist not punctuation and grammar!

I've yet to see any evidence that you qualify as a good scientist.

[Majiball]

Cheeky.

[den]

If you want to check my facts I would ask you to post some of my comments prior to Sam's arrival. He will split the fanbase, he will waste our money on has beens etc etc it will cost us long term. It's all there in black and white and without doubt played a great role in the current disaster as they used it to their advantage with Kean. Shock horror that not one of Sam's signings made us decent money ala Bentley or RSC and even when winning 3-0 fans were screaming for better. He did a good job with Jones but don't let that detract from the many years he spent with Ireland, Bowyer and Mcphilips and of course steve Kean, lol.

Yeah, you posted it Maj, but none of it was right. Gates went up and he made the club money by having to sell many of the players he inherited, while at the same time improving the league position.

[thenodrog]

Yeah, you posted it Maj, but none of it was right. Gates went up and he made the club money by having to sell many of the players he inherited, while at the same time improving the league position.

Scientists don't make the best historians remember Den.

......... Especially scientists of the quality, reputation and renown of our Majiball.

Cheeky.

No it's not Maj...... you did say we could throw at you what we liked. So I did.

[jim mk2]

You can throw what you like at me, some of us have insight and vision that's what makes a good scientist not punctuation and grammar!

Insight and vision that Sam was bad for us ? You might be an atom-splitting scientist but you're a fool.

[Majiball]

I'll add in Givet here season 09/10

Diouf - high wages & 1.5M fee, released.

The turk - decent wages, released.

Givet - good signing, high wages now burning us rotten.

Linganzi - Still waiting

Basturk - decent wages, released

Kalinic - 6M good wages, never a target man

Chimbonda - left us with no left back

Di Santo - still waiting on him ala Kalanic

Salgado - good player under Sam, but high wages

N'zonzi - decent player, 3M recieved

Van heerden - Still waiting released

Jacobsen - Yet another RB and a pants one at that

Sold - not released

RSC - man city, thanks JW & Hughes

Warnock - thanks JW & Hughes

Derb's - 2.5M thanks JW

Benni Mac - 2.5M thanks JW

Made 20M profit, fantastic and a real credit to JW as he was the negotiator not Sam. Deadwoods galore and window closed with JW refusing Sam money and him resorting to photo's of him with players in restaurants demanding 40K-50K a week.

Season 10/11

Mame Diouf - loan, rubbish

Benjani -

http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/en/blackburn-rovers/transfers/verein_164_2010_default_default_alle_a.html

Yes a takeover was on the cards but wages had gone back up through the roof and we had the square route of nothing to spend? JW made us good money on what was left from Hughes Sam didn't negotiate any of those deals.

Loads of freebies, loads of rubbish and wages so high we couldn't sign anyone better than Benjani. Remember saying it would happen and it did.

Yes gates went up and why was that? nothing to do with us slashing our tickets prices to become the cheapest club in the country to watch? All down to Sam nothing to do with Williams junior? Results improved as did league standing and yet we have to get bums on seats become the cheapest club in the country. Don't remember that in the heyday or with hughes, Hodgson, Kidd etc etc

Half the fans wanted him out, disliked him as a person and were vocal about it even when winning. Were things like that prior to his arrival, no. Fans even started campaigns to ensure he never came here, no split there then.

Sam saved us from the abyss after the shocking choice of Ince, but not one of those signings did anything other than increase wages and only N'zonzi has made a profit, you can credit Sam for the rest all you want they weren't his choice and Sam never negotiated any of those deals. He steadied the ship got us safe in the league which was great but don't let that detract from what else he did. For every decent signing he made at Bolton he signed 4-5 nobodies each earning good money every player on 10K a week is 500,000 a year. We had plenty of those under Sam and it all adds up, especially when we were already pushing the boat wages wise. What was Bolton's debt when he joined and started their fantastic journey and what was it when he left? 80 odd million quid if I remember rightly, we didn't have a gartside, it was never going to work long term.

We had always (since Jack departed) been a club that even you yourself have said survived on signing players and selling them for good money, that was the club mantra, Sam has not and will never follow that mantra. League position great, but long term disaster as financial prudence was what kept us where we were.

I'll always be grateful for him keeping us up, but it was a double edged sword and was always going to be.

Put your dislike of me as a poster to one side and look at the bigger picture.

[den]

Put your dislike of me as a poster to one side and look at the bigger picture.

I don't know who your saying that to Maj, but I don't know of anyone who doesn't appreciate your input.

[Black Burn]

I don't know who your saying that to Maj, but I don't know of anyone who doesn't appreciate your input.

I do, just saying. I might not agree with him completely, but I think he raises several valid points.

I think he's talking to jim mk2 and thenodrog.

[jim mk2]

Put your dislike of me as a poster to one side and look at the bigger picture.

The bigger picture is the moment Sam was sacked I knew as a club we were doomed to relegation. In fact I was so sure about it I put money on it and made a few bob. I'm not sure what else you're trying to prove - that he had a few duffers in the transfer market ? Well, look at Ferguson - he's made plenty of mistakes that have cost Utd tens of millions. Most managers make mistakes with players - it's in the nature of the job. I would you suggest you put your dislike of Sam Allardyce to one side and look at the bigger picture.

[Majiball]

I don't know who your saying that to Maj, but I don't know of anyone who doesn't appreciate your input.

I like you as a poster Den it wasn't aimed at anyone in particular just get the impression at times that my manner of posting detracts from the point and some people judge the content based on that.

The bigger picture is the moment Sam was sacked I knew as a club we were doomed to relegation. In fact I was so sure about it I put money on it and made a few bob. I'm not sure what else you're trying to prove - that he had a few duffers in the transfer market ? Well, look at Ferguson - he's made plenty of mistakes that have cost Utd tens of millions. Most managers make mistakes with players - it's in the nature of the job. I would you suggest you put your dislike of Sam Allardyce to one side and look at the bigger picture.

I was gobsmacked when Sam was sacked it was completely out of the blue and undeserved. I don't dislike Sam as a person he's a good bloke and quite funny when he wants to be and almost every player I know who's played under him loved it and felt valued. But I don't like his football and how he goes about his signings. For a man who basically did what I believe is the best way forward for a football club (his 32 strong back-room team = 1 first team players wages) I cannot understand why he doesn't apply that to other aspects IE players and signings. I've cited Everton as their track record is strong and I know their inner workings very well. Adding quantitativness to a qualitative process is a good thing as subjectiveness relies purely on opinion regardless of how said opinion is formed. Trouble is a club like ours cannot afford to make massive mistakes in the market and we will only suffer for it. Kalinic is a perfect example, we needed him to be a success and clearly we got it very wrong, we sold players for good money and we needed to replace them for the long term. Now by that I don't mean same position etc, I mean players how we can sell on for good money and strong profit. When you are the richest club in the world you can shoulder the burden of 4-5 duff signings a season, Rovers cannot. All I'm trying to do is exactly what I do in the scientific world to show people staunch in there views that perhaps things aren't quite right and that further thought is needed for progress to occur. On here just as in my world people defend their position, regardless not one of us wants to be proven or shown to be wrong.

When Sam was sacked the reasoning used, whether right or wrong was the football and it's style. So consequently whether any of us like it or not the choice to appoint Sam played a role in allowing Venky's and the puppet master to remove him and give it to Kean. The split over the football for me bought Kean more time and created support within the fanbase for him for a time. You see looking back and considering this isn't the first club that the puppet master has done this too, we were perfect for him to come in and make serious money out of through fees charged. Now I'm not saying it was the main factor but it played a strong role in the end result just as the fitness levels of my team are not the be all and end all, but they are still a strong part in the performance.

[Steve Moss]

I've yet to see any evidence that you qualify as a good scientist.

Careful, Theno. You might find yourself strapped to a gurney and used for medical experiments.

As an aside, I've always valued Maji's posts though I disagree with him about Sam.

[thenodrog]

I'll add in Givet here season 09/10

Diouf - high wages & 1.5M fee, released.

The turk - decent wages, released.

Givet - good signing, high wages now burning us rotten.

Linganzi - Still waiting

Basturk - decent wages, released

Kalinic - 6M good wages, never a target man

Chimbonda - left us with no left back

Di Santo - still waiting on him ala Kalanic

Salgado - good player under Sam, but high wages

N'zonzi - decent player, 3M recieved

Van heerden - Still waiting released

Jacobsen - Yet another RB and a pants one at that

Sold - not released

RSC - man city, thanks JW & Hughes

Warnock - thanks JW & Hughes

Derb's - 2.5M thanks JW

Benni Mac - 2.5M thanks JW

Made 20M profit, fantastic and a real credit to JW as he was the negotiator not Sam. Deadwoods galore and window closed with JW refusing Sam money and him resorting to photo's of him with players in restaurants demanding 40K-50K a week.

Season 10/11

Mame Diouf - loan, rubbish

Benjani -

http://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/en/blackburn-rovers/transfers/verein_164_2010_default_default_alle_a.html

Yes a takeover was on the cards but wages had gone back up through the roof and we had the square route of nothing to spend? JW made us good money on what was left from Hughes Sam didn't negotiate any of those deals.

Loads of freebies, loads of rubbish and wages so high we couldn't sign anyone better than Benjani. Remember saying it would happen and it did.

Yes gates went up and why was that? nothing to do with us slashing our tickets prices to become the cheapest club in the country to watch? All down to Sam nothing to do with Williams junior? Results improved as did league standing and yet we have to get bums on seats become the cheapest club in the country. Don't remember that in the heyday or with hughes, Hodgson, Kidd etc etc

Half the fans wanted him out, disliked him as a person and were vocal about it even when winning. Were things like that prior to his arrival, no. Fans even started campaigns to ensure he never came here, no split there then.

Sam saved us from the abyss after the shocking choice of Ince, but not one of those signings did anything other than increase wages and only N'zonzi has made a profit, you can credit Sam for the rest all you want they weren't his choice and Sam never negotiated any of those deals. He steadied the ship got us safe in the league which was great but don't let that detract from what else he did. For every decent signing he made at Bolton he signed 4-5 nobodies each earning good money every player on 10K a week is 500,000 a year. We had plenty of those under Sam and it all adds up, especially when we were already pushing the boat wages wise. What was Bolton's debt when he joined and started their fantastic journey and what was it when he left? 80 odd million quid if I remember rightly, we didn't have a gartside, it was never going to work long term.

We had always (since Jack departed) been a club that even you yourself have said survived on signing players and selling them for good money, that was the club mantra, Sam has not and will never follow that mantra. League position great, but long term disaster as financial prudence was what kept us where we were.

I'll always be grateful for him keeping us up, but it was a double edged sword and was always going to be.

Put your dislike of me as a poster to one side and look at the bigger picture.

Allardyces signings were not that good but it's unfair to compare him solely to Mark Hughes. Much fairer to compare him to the likes of Souness, Kidd, Harford and Hodgson who all made a number of poor signings back when we had big money available. Hughes was remarkable, incomparable even he was a one off, the proverbial Goose that laid the Golden egg! Maybe you'd think better of Allardyce's record if JW and the trust had supported him in signing the likes of Lewandowski, Guti and Raoul? People would certainly have viewed Ray Harford's managerial tenure in a better light if he had been backed in his desire to sign Zidane and Dugarry rather than remembering him for the arrival of Matty Holmes!

Unfortunately John Williams the chap who seems to be your hero effectively shoehorned Hughes out of the exit door by making his position here untenable and replaced him with Paul Ince! Seems like everybody @#/? up at BRFC sometime eh? Interestingly JW had requested a meeting with me for wed Dec 18th 2008 to discuss his reasons behind backing Ince but it was cancelled when he was forced to sack the goon on Monday the 16th.

[Tris]

Interestingly JW had requested a meeting with me for wed Dec 18th 2008 to discuss his reasons behind backing Ince but it was cancelled

That's a very interesting recollection of events Gordon. My own recollection is that I brokered the proposed meeting because John Williams asked me to do so - and via the below post I asked all his harshest messageboard critics to come and talk to him to his face.

http://www.brfcs.com/mb/index.php/topic/20204-paul-ince/page-216#entry705623

You were one of the people who repsonded and wanted to take the opportunity (and you asked for your mate Wiggy to attend with you). I still have all the emails.

I don't remember JW personally requesting your presence at any stage??

Interestingly, two of the other MB readers who asked to be at that same meeting were Kamy and Majiball. Kamy presumably looking to boost the contacts book, and Maji probably selling some scientific fitness stuff.

How things have changed, eh?

[Majiball]

Good to see you posting again Tris. Hope all is well.

[thenodrog]

That's a very interesting recollection of events Gordon. My own recollection is that I brokered the proposed meeting because John Williams asked me to do so - and via the below post I asked all his harshest messageboard critics to come and talk to him to his face.

http://www.brfcs.com/mb/index.php/topic/20204-paul-ince/page-216#entry705623

You were one of the people who repsonded and wanted to take the opportunity (and you asked for your mate Wiggy to attend with you). I still have all the emails.

I don't remember JW personally requesting your presence at any stage??

Interestingly, two of the other MB readers who asked to be at that same meeting were Kamy and Majiball. Kamy presumably looking to boost the contacts book, and Maji probably selling some scientific fitness stuff.

How things have changed, eh?

Are you a sentinel these days Tris? You don't contribute but you must be reading.

Anyway any meet up was not at my request but via either you (who did have connections at the club) and/or Lindsay Talbot who I seem to recall was JW's secretary. Any request coming via a persons secretary can be deemed as personal in my book. Not only that but I rem I offered to meet JW after work in the local. As far as I understood there was no one else involved...... majiball would only have been banging on about how many calories was in a pint and a packet of crsips anyway.

Thinking back to those times I wonder now (knowing how close you were to JW) and knowing your deep aversion to the gum chewing slug whether you played some part in diverting JW away from Allardyce in May and by definition was in some way responsible for the appalling appointment of the numpty Ince. Did you influence OR attempt to influence JW in any way Tris?

btw on the subject of Majiball .....didn't you play some part in intruducing him to JW and the club or is that my imagination?

[AHoyle90]

I'm also a big fan of 4-4-2 with 2 out and out strikers, but there are 2 variations of five in midfield which can both work if you have the correct players.

The first being a 4-3-3 with a midfielder sat in front of the back 4, requires a specialist player in the 'Makelele' role, thats why it works for Barca, they have Busquets, Song and Mascherano who are all naturals in this position, and allow Xavi/Iniesta/Messi as well as the wingers freedom to push forward and be creative.

The other variation is more of a 4-2-3-1 whereby the fith midfielder is a 'second striker'. This is becoming increasingly popular in the Premier League and is used by many teams on the continent. Works brilliantly for Madrid, Dortmund, Bayern as they have a lot of gifted technical players who can play as an attacking midfielder just of the striker, or even as a wide player cutting inside.

For the sake of Rovers though, I love seeing us play 2 up top, especially at home to get us on the front foot.