[Archived] Match Fixing

[Stuart]

I'm starting to think people have no clue about how to play football.

Controlling the ball out of the air is done how Nani is attempting to. Take the Madrid player out if the sequence and it is a perfect execution. The sequence above omits the seconds before it when the ball is travelling through the air watching the only the ball.

DE is right, if we ignore the word intent (as the FIFA laws do) and use the letter of the law, any foot raised above waist height now needs to be classed a serious foul play and a sending off - just in case someone near by decides to run into their foot.

This debate is really getting silly now though.

As an aside I think the Madrid player knows exactly what he's doing - confirmed by his reaction afterwards. From Nani's perspective, accidental collision. From Arbeloa's, a deliberate attempt to get Nani (at least) a yellow card.

[Tom]

That sounds a bit patronising stu to be fair, people tend to throw the 'know nothing about football' argument out all too often (done it myself), Jim did it earlier but we expect that tone from him

I've played football plenty and I still think a red is harsh but fair

I'd have gone for the ball and been outraged if i got sent of but that's the breaks sometimes, same as if I go in for the ball and a opponent gets in first and I catch him its a foul and possibly a card

You say about the Madrid players reaction but what about Nani's? That's telling for me, he knows he's in bother.

Nobody wants to see a red card for it but I can see the justification for it myself that's all

[Stuart]

Nani's reaction was likely hoping to get Arbeloa in trouble.

I've no liking for Nani or United the arguments are being clouded here. There are those who think he should have been sent off because it was deliberate - yet when other say it wasn't, the follow up is "intent is irrelevant"

The the other argument is that the letter of the law means that if his foot was up do high then it's dangerous play - even if he didn't know Arbeloa was there. That being the case, all high feet - including scissor kicks must be red cards too for the same reason. But people follow up by cherry picking and pointing to technique. (Nani's technique to attempt to being the ball down was text book).

The correct decision, as most pragmatic referees would have done, would have been a booking (at worst).

It's worth reiterating that had a red not been given - NOBODY would have been calling for a red. It wouldn't even have been mentioned. It wasn't that kind of challenge.

Oh and Jim can point out things like technique but I can't? Play fair.

[Tom]

I was talking about your opening statement not your argument about technique

Just seems a bit off to basically insult people for not agreeing

[JAL]

Nani is watching the ball the whole way, the ball was in the air to be controlled and won, and Arbeloa comes in from the side to challenge.

Anyone who sees it as a deliberate foul has never played the game.

I'm still annoyed that an excellent match between two of the world's best club teams that was finely balanced and could have gone either way was spoilt by another crass refereeing decision.

We've moved on from the Nat Lofthouse era Jim.

[darrenrover]

We've moved on from the Nat Lofthouse era Jim.

ZZ didn't think so but that did warrant a red!

[Tom]

As for the 'if that's a red then any scissor kick is a red' argument I'd rather each incident be judged on its individual merits personally

If I stand on the goal line with my arms stretched out then that's fine, if I do it and the ball hits it then its not fine in that instance.

Intent or no intent you can't escape the fact he studded an opponent in the chest, all I've been arguing is its not as an outrageous decision for me as some think

By the way I would moan if a rovers player got sent off for that but then again as football fans we moan about any borderline decision against us

[DE.]

As for the 'if that's a red then any scissor kick is a red' argument I'd rather each incident be judged on its individual merits personally

Judged on what merits? Surely the only merit you can consider is intent - the thing you say two sentences later can't be considered?

[darrenrover]

Judged on what merits? Surely the only merit you can consider is intent - the thing you say two sentences later can't be considered?

Is it not time to agree to disagree?

Being a voice of reason, it was never a red! ;-)

[Tom]

Ok let's draw a line under it, any more posts will be removed

By the way red justified

Only messing I couldn't pull that one twice in two days

[darrenrover]

Ok let's draw a line under it, any more posts will be removed

By the way red justified

Only messing I couldn't pull that one twice in two days

LOL, lets see what Sunday brings. It's inevitable that there will be an incident that bites someone on the backside!

[Tom]

LOL, lets see what Sunday brings. It's inevitable that there will be an incident that bites someone on the backside!

And no doubt that will be me but I've already put preemptive in place by underlining my fickle nature.

I just don't know anymore at the time I thought harsh but justified but can see the arguments from both sides as as people say how can you be punished when there's no intent but at the same time he did stud him in the chest. Bah!

[DE.]

The phrase "studded in the chest" is very misleading, though. If we're talking de Jong in the Euro finals, yes. Nani's was more under the armpit/side of the torso area, and there was as much momentum from Arbeloa as Nani himself. Arbeloa COULD have avoided that if he wanted to, but his eyes were on the ball and he wanted to win it. Exactly the same for Nani, except he couldn't have avoided the collision because he wasn't aware of Arbeloa until after he had jumped.

[darrenrover]

And no doubt that will be me but I've already put preemptive in place by underlining my fickle nature.

I just don't know anymore at the time I thought harsh but justified but can see the arguments from both sides as as people say how can you be punished when there's no intent but at the same time he did stud him in the chest. Bah!

Humbug perhaps !

[Guest Norbert]

Are we still talking about this? And what has it got to do with match fixing?

[thenodrog]

He didn't have to bring the ball under control. He went for the ball, whether it was his intention to control it or not. He missed and went in with his boot chest high and caught Arbeloa. Shocking tackle and thoroughly deserved a red card.

'tackle'??? Anyone with any knowledge of football would never describe that as a tackle cos it wasn't. It was a collision.

Just looking at the Nani incident in isolation:

He was running into space, looking to receive and control a high, looping ball over his shoulder and his eyes were looking over his shoulder at the pass made to him from a team mate. In order to try to control the ball, whilst still looking over his shoulder at the ball, he realised that to do so he had to raise his foot. The fact that an opponent happened to run into his raised foot was probably never in Nani's mind, his sole focus was controlling the ball, nothing more.

As such, IMO, it didn't even warrant a free kick or booking never mind a red card.

I detest UTD with a passion but in this case I am totally sympathetic.

It's no wonder so many are becoming disillusioned with the game in general.

Non contact sport? Not for me.

Indeed so. If I had been the referee I would have blown up because both players were on the ground but would have restarted play with a bounce up.

I've just be reading a QI book.

Apparently "Manchester United is the most hated brand in the UK and the 7th most hated in the world."

A lot of these post now suddenly make sense.

I think most people have been aware of that for years. I've been an abu since the 60's. But I am continually astonished by the press and media continually fawning over them as they do and as if we should all worship at the OT alter when they know full well that the majority of football followers hate the effin sight if them.

If I had it my way, it wouldn't even have been a foul. But the ref applied the rules as they are.

I think it's more a case of naff rules than naff reffing.

The rules are crap everyone knows that. Anything that interferes with a game as a fair contest is anti-spectator and should be avoided at all costs and that is that. The authorities are too full of their own importance. One way would be to save red cards for Cantona like aberrations and introduce a blue card to order compulsory substitutions. If all 3 subs have been used then tough! It should also serve to prevent these time wasting / game disrupting tactical substitutions made in the last 10 when treams are hanging on for the final whistle too.

[thenodrog]

Just out of interest, for those that can remember, what would be made these days of Glen Keeley's challenge on Len Fuccilo (Luton Town) at Ewood?

I recall Jimmy Hill foaming at the mouth even then!

There was a clip on here once of a matchv Portsmouth where Keeley was sent off and the tackles all through that match were nighmareish. The Rovers appeared to be targetting a portsmouth player for serious punishment. Can't rem why but it must have been a real grudge fixture.

You don't go in studs up, whether you're making a tackle or reaching for the ball. Do that and you always run the risk of catching a player and suffering the full extent of the law. Nani can't have any complaints.

Exactly that is the difference here, like it or not he studded the bloke in the ribs, its dangerous play

Harsh decision in a way but fair

Easy peasy then to suit you two..... simply ban studs.

[thenodrog]

Looking at that gif, Derren Brown style for 10 minutes, even I would think it was a red.

It was never a red. Not in real football. The only people who weren't shocked were the ref, his assistant, Am'o and Tom. Oh, and Roy "I didn't sign anything" Keane.

Keane's Mr Controversy Act was hilarious, by the way. 'Whenever I got sent off in my career, as I was walking off, I asked myself "Did I give the referee a decision to make?"'.

Yeah, of course Roy - you were simply unlucky with those dozen or so red cards. No way did you intentionally go in to hurt someone. It was simple misfortune. That poor hapless ref had a decision to make and, unfortunately, he decided - by the letter of the law - you had to go. ("Sorry son, it's my job at stake if I don't. It's those assessors, you know, they're making our lives a misery") . I bet all those refs are still waking up at nights, in a cold sweat, worrying about all those close calls and how they might have done things differently. Ha.

Heard David Elleray recount his sendings off of Kean and subsequent criticisms from the old RFW... (he sent him off 3 times). He was targetted so badly with hate mail etc that the police had to open his mail for fear of letter bombs etc. Needless to say and Elleray is a gentleman but one got the distinct impression that Elleray wouldn't p1ss on Kean and Fergy if they were on fire.

We've moved on from the Nat Lofthouse era Jim.

No.... we've gone backward.

[arbitro]

Heard David Elleray recount his sendings off of Kean and subsequent criticisms from the old RFW... (he sent him off 3 times). He was targetted so badly with hate mail etc that the police had to open his mail for fear of letter bombs etc. Needless to say and Elleray is a gentleman but one got the distinct impression that Elleray wouldn't p1ss on Kean and Fergy if they were on fire.

No.... we've gone backward.

Don't be fooled by Elleray. I and many others who have have worked with him knew his game was self preservation and buck passing.

[Mike E]

Nani is watching the ball the whole way, the ball was in the air to be controlled and won, and Arbeloa comes in from the side to challenge.

Anyone who sees it as a deliberate foul has never played the game.

I'm still annoyed that an excellent match between two of the world's best club teams that was finely balanced and could have gone either way was spoilt by another crass refereeing decision.

NO-ONE (well, I'm not, anyway) is saying it was a deliberate foul. My view is that the gif makes it LOOK deliberate. But even if it wasn't, the foul was worthy of a yellow but I can understand why the ref would give a red. Quite simply (challenge or not), if you plant your studs in another player you run the risk of getting a red.

[yoda]

if you want an example of match fixing, watch the draw if we beat Millwall!

[Mike E]

if you wan tan example of match fixing, watch the draw if we beat Millwall!

I genuinely think it's written in the stars that we'll draw Wigan. Although regardless of who we draw, if we get to Wembley (semi) I'm going. Never been before.

[Guest Norbert]

I went to the old Wembley stadium for the Charity Shield in 1995. The stadium was crap, and the game was like a re-enactment of the battle of Paschendale, with David Batty et al beating the crap out of each other. One of the worst games I've seen, and I've seen a few at the Ricoh and Bedford Town.

[thenodrog]

if you want an example of match fixing, watch the draw if we beat Millwall!

I'm not saying it's fixed but I very much doubt that the winner between Millwall and us will be playing Wigan in the semi's.

[riverside returns]

I suppose the only way that a Manchester club can be guaranteed the cup is if they play each other in the semis. That means winner of millwall v rovers will face Wigan for the right to be the sacrificial lamb.