[Archived] Hull City [Away]; 19th February.

[Stuart]

So... this threw me slightly today... (note the caption)

Lee Williamson?

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

If it was all about points you'd have been happy to stick with Kean then? He had us riding high in the league picking up points against the front runners?

Not really because his points record overall at Rovers was nowhere near good enough. Don't see much point in sticking with a guy who's been atrocious in the premiership for 18 months with a previously mid-table side. But while I'd rank Kean below managers like Holloway, Davies, Bruce and others who were available, I'd certainly put him above chronic, nonsencial, bargain basement appointments like Berg. This is the standard clash of opinions I have with fans who don't base theirs on statistics, results-wise its ludicrous to blame our league position on Kean and not Berg.

[bob fleming]

But while I'd rank Kean below managers like Holloway, Davies, Bruce and others who were available, I'd certainly put him above chronic, nonsencial, bargain basement appointments like Berg. This is the standard clash of opinions I have with fans who don't base theirs on statistics, results-wise its ludicrous to blame our league position on Kean and not Berg.

Ridiculous, absolutely ridiculous. Berg is a decent man, Kean should never work in football again after totally dismantling our football club and waging war against the fans through the media.

As for your last sentence - try thinking Singh rather than Berg.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

Ridiculous, absolutely ridiculous. Berg is a decent man, Kean should never work in football again after totally dismantling our football club and waging war against the fans through the media.

As for your last sentence - try thinking Singh rather than Berg.

How does being a decent man in any way affect where we are in the table? It doesn't. Berg is a decent man, along with being a great player for us, a club legend, and playing a prominent part in both trophies the club has won in the modern era. I'm not disputing that or taking anything away from it in the slightest. But the fact is he was a god awful manager and his god awful results are the reason we're currently about 10 points behind where we would have been without his involvement.

It doesn't make me like Kean anymore, and it doesn't make me like Berg any less, but lets be honest about it. Kean's results this season were fine, his damage was caused by the unbalanced squad he left. But as Black, Bowyer and to an extent Appleton have shown, thats not an insurmountable problem to deal with even for fairly novice managers. The problem is Berg wasn't a novice manager, he was a proven failure as a manager before he even arrived at the club. A fairly glaring problem that got ignored for reasons irrelevant to our objective of promotion.

[XLM]

You have made my point for me, he could see that he would not get the points, it was his team now (not one he inherited) and it was not going to deliver. So he walked before he was pushed and so engineered a pay off.

I'm not weighing in on the discussion because I can't be bothered reading it, but if you're fired from a fixed term contract you're entitled to your wage from the remaining period. Providing it wasn't in Kean's contract that it can be terminated by the club early, which is extremely unlikely, he would have been far better off if he was "pushed". In fact it's more likely that there was also a pay off on dismissal written into the deal or if not he could have claimed for damages.

Whereas if you end your own contract early you're entitled to zip. There was probably something in there to say that it could be ended by Kean early with no consequences but if not he would have to have given a weeks notice by law; which he didn't and so would have breached the contract and owed money to Venkys.

So I really don't see why he would have wanted to quit before poor performances and results meant he got sacked... He lost out on nearly a year's worth of pay off and he'd already survived relegating us. It makes no sense.

[DE.]

How does being a decent man in any way affect where we are in the table? It doesn't. Berg is a decent man, along with being a great player for us, a club legend, and playing a prominent part in both trophies the club has won in the modern era. I'm not disputing that or taking anything away from it in the slightest. But the fact is he was a god awful manager and his god awful results are the reason we're currently about 10 points behind where we would have been without his involvement.

It doesn't make me like Kean anymore, and it doesn't make me like Berg any less, but lets be honest about it. Kean's results this season were fine, his damage was caused by the unbalanced squad he left. But as Black, Bowyer and to an extent Appleton have shown, thats not an insurmountable problem to deal with even for fairly novice managers. The problem is Berg wasn't a novice manager, he was a proven failure as a manager before he even arrived at the club. A fairly glaring problem that got ignored for reasons irrelevant to our objective of promotion.

In some ways you're right, but your earlier quote that Berg is the "sole reason" we aren't pushing for promotion is lunacy.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

In some ways you're right, but your earlier quote that Berg is the "sole reason" we aren't pushing for promotion is lunacy.

Why? Kean took us down to the level of Championship promotion challengers, but he didn't take us any further than that. That was quite far enough for him to rightly be labelled as one of our worst managers of all time, and to be honest I did think he'd continue making us worse. But he didn't, he levelled off at about play-off level, its Berg who took us even further below that. So its Kean's fault that we're in this division in the first place, but its Berg's fault that we're not challenging for promotion in it. Thats how I see it anyway.

[bob fleming]

How does being a decent man in any way affect where we are in the table? It doesn't. Berg is a decent man, along with being a great player for us, a club legend, and playing a prominent part in both trophies the club has won in the modern era. I'm not disputing that or taking anything away from it in the slightest. But the fact is he was a god awful manager and his god awful results are the reason we're currently about 10 points behind where we would have been without his involvement.

It doesn't make me like Kean anymore, and it doesn't make me like Berg any less, but lets be honest about it. Kean's results this season were fine, his damage was caused by the unbalanced squad he left. But as Black, Bowyer and to an extent Appleton have shown, thats not an insurmountable problem to deal with even for fairly novice managers. The problem is Berg wasn't a novice manager, he was a proven failure as a manager before he even arrived at the club. A fairly glaring problem that got ignored for reasons irrelevant to our objective of promotion.

Again, when you say Berg try thinking Singh. That's how I'll remember those ten games, regardless. How could they bring him in and not allow him to appoint his own staff? Not even a transfer window? A man in isolation. Was it Mercerman who saw him at Stanley House after the Blackpool defeat, alone. Friendless? Where was Singh then? Shaw, Agnew? His backroom team, his right hand man. His confidant? Nowhere, because a media whore wanted in on the act - now, for reasons unknown he only speaks on YouTube making a complete tit of himself and the club, and that's a rarity as well thankfully. That's Singh, not Berg. Berg is possibly locked up in the same room in Pune as Kean for all we know.

So what changed then? A change of policy? A trip to Pune? A quiet word? Who knows. I have an inkling, but when we go losing one in seven it'll remain that. And after all, didn't Venkys / the owners put 24m in last week? I must have dreamt that.

Bowyer got a reaction, Appleton likewise - and then some. We'll all be dreaming of the play offs again this time tomorrow if we win.

But Kean and his results? Law of averages at best. he was abject utter rubbish, clueless, as was his football. I'm not sure what exactly your argument is to be honest but I can't sit by and let you defend his results record, even this season. To quote Stanley Ternant again tonight, a blind man on a galloping horse could see it wouldn't last, that we were riding our luck.

And then Kean quit, just like that. Was that on the eve of the weekend that that story was going to break? I honestly can't recall. What I do recall was that part of the problem had been removed, it was a fantastic Friday night. I certainly don't remember sitting round thinking about his great results this season.

Anyway, back to Hull away apparently!

[jim mk2]

In some ways you're right, but your earlier quote that Berg is the "sole reason" we aren't pushing for promotion is lunacy.

In the context of this season it is entirely correct. Kean gave us a fantastic start and we were in the top 5 (i think) when he left. The two caretaker managers also had a decent record. The most disastrous spell this season and the one which will probably cost us a play-off place is Berg's tenure when we gleaned just one win in 10 games.

[DE.]

So Shebby is in no way responsible for taking five weeks to find a new manager and then hiring Berg? Venky's are in no way responsible for sticking with Kean this summer leading to the inevitable resignation in the first place? Shaw/Agnew are in no way responsible for causing internal strife the minute Berg was announced? The players are in no way responsible for some truly dire performances and lack of effort over that period?

Berg is the sole reason for us being where we are, OK then.

As for Kean giving us a fantastic start to the season, balls to that. It was decent in terms of results but we were truly awful during this period and if you go back and read any match thread you'll see almost everyone predicting our luck (and we had a massive ton of it) would run out soon because we were not playing remotely well.

[Stuart]

Stats, stats and damned stats.

People do remember all those one on one chances that we gifted teams early in the season and got away with, don't they?

Some people need this tattood backwards on their forehead so they can have that 'ah' moment every day!

Yes, Kean is responsible for getting us where we are:

THE CHAMPIONSHIP.

The jury is still out on who was responsible for keeping him there...

[47er]

In the context of this season it is entirely correct. Kean gave us a fantastic start and we were in the top 5 (i think) when he left. The two caretaker managers also had a decent record. The most disastrous spell this season and the one which will probably cost us a play-off place is Berg's tenure when we gleaned just one win in 10 games.

If he'd won what proved to be his last game with us (Boro at Ewood) we would have been top. However,we put in an abject performance and I remember us as third when Kean left.

No question that we will look back at this season as an opportunity missed and it will be that 56 days of Berg that cost us at least a play-off position.

[Gav]

Not really because his points record overall at Rovers was nowhere near good enough. Don't see much point in sticking with a guy who's been atrocious in the premiership for 18 months with a previously mid-table side. But while I'd rank Kean below managers like Holloway, Davies, Bruce and others who were available, I'd certainly put him above chronic, nonsencial, bargain basement appointments like Berg. This is the standard clash of opinions I have with fans who don't base theirs on statistics, results-wise its ludicrous to blame our league position on Kean and not Berg.

Bergs appointment was wrong, but surely like I mentioned above, we had a manager who couldn’t bring in his own staff, we had a manger that couldn’t bring in his own players and we had a manager that allowed himself to be influenced by a Malaysian TV pundit!

The simple fact of the matter is yes he didn’t get the results which has cost us in the long run, but to just blame Berg is short sighted. If Kean had been sacked when he should have been, at the end of the previous season, the new manager would have been able to build a side with his own players, have a pre-season with them which is key, and we could have seen the rewards, so its not just as simple as blaming Berg for not picking up enough points.

Henning Berg has nothing but my respect, a great player for the club and thoroughly decent guy, some of you need to remember his playing time here and what he did for the club, as Bob has also mentioned above.

[yoda]

I'm not weighing in on the discussion because I can't be bothered reading it, but if you're fired from a fixed term contract you're entitled to your wage from the remaining period. Providing it wasn't in Kean's contract that it can be terminated by the club early, which is extremely unlikely, he would have been far better off if he was "pushed". In fact it's more likely that there was also a pay off on dismissal written into the deal or if not he could have claimed for damages.

Whereas if you end your own contract early you're entitled to zip. There was probably something in there to say that it could be ended by Kean early with no consequences but if not he would have to have given a weeks notice by law; which he didn't and so would have breached the contract and owed money to Venkys.

So I really don't see why he would have wanted to quit before poor performances and results meant he got sacked... He lost out on nearly a year's worth of pay off and he'd already survived relegating us. It makes no sense.

he walked and claimed constructive dismisal, (due to interference I believe) and got paid out, if he had stayed and subsequently not acheived his pre determined targets (publicised by Shabby) he could have been sacked.

[K-Hod]

Anyone that genuinely praises Kean for the start of this season needs to have a pint of reality.

Your short memories are absolutely sickening given what went on before.