[Archived] Bolton vs Rovers

[Majiball]

As is what has happened in the past. Sam just doesn't help himself and sitting here with hindsight it was always going to happen. Right or wrong doesn't matter, Sam was a goner from the second the club was sold.

[DE.]

You're certainly right there, Venky's needed a yes man and they got one.

[Gav]

  On 07/03/2013 at 16:31, Jimmy612 said:

Not true, his sacking was as criminal as the recruitment process imo. It has long been my observation that you fail to admit your wrongdoing in this subject Gav, rather like Toppers and B&WA. I remember the night he was sacked I said we would go down, silly me, I was about 12 months out with my prediction. You however have been proven wrong time and time and time again, and still you bleat on about a 'replacement'. Who would have been an adequate replacement in your opinion?

Not going over old ground Jimmy, I’m already regretting getting involved.... Stuarts lost the plot further up the thread and its only my first comment on Allardyce!

On a serious note its all about opinions, I have mine and you have yours, neither of us is right or wrong....

Jesus, I’ve been living with a leftie for far too long......Gordon give me a slap!

[47er]

  On 07/03/2013 at 22:06, Majiball said:

First and foremost I'm not trying to be an ass.

Yes he kept us up, but for all we know we could have gone down under him. You can say it's highly probable but you can't say fact.

And we could have lost every game from then till the end of the season.

I could flip this around and say that Kean had us on course for promotion and so it was wrong to sack/push him.

The Sam debate needs burying, we need to focus on the now, not if's and buts.

Just about anything is possible theoretically. For example, we could still be promoted this season.

As Topman says though, we shouldn't go for absolutes in this argument. Ask yourself what was by far the likeliest outcome if Sam had continued to the end of the season?

I'm sure you'd agree we'd have survived comfortably for another season in the Premiership? Very few managers could just about guarantee that with a club of our resources and that's why his sacking was a disaster.

In any case, I doubt whether results or even style had anything to do with it. As others have said, he wasn't in the plan.

[thenodrog]

  On 07/03/2013 at 10:42, Amarillo said:

I don't caaaaare. You guys have got one note and you hit it at every opportunity. I've already destroyed the myth purporting Allardyce as the messiah before. I'm not in the mood to do it again.

Sacking Allardyce was just the tip of the iceberg where Venky's are concerned. Blathering about it ad naseam won't do anything to change that.

Thick kids of low intellect used to get their heads banged together at school to make them learn, it doesn't happen now but too many on here are intent on proving that was a valid and necessary measure.

It's no coincidence that numbnuts blue and white army hasn't replied when I asked him to name a better manager who would have even considered managing BRFC given our situation when they potted Allardyce? To be critical Allardyces style is too pragmatic for some but that contributes to him being just about the safest pair of hands in the business, so its hardly suprising blue and white army has gone quiet on me cos there wasn't one and so he can only open himself to more ridicule if he attempts to. It's a question I've asked on here and around until I'm blue in the face since 2008 without any valid replies to date. Hardly unexpected.

Anyway you can try now if you want. Off you go. You have something I didn't have when I proposed replacing Hughes with Allardyce, you have 4 years of hindsight and even that wont help you .

[Majiball]

  On 07/03/2013 at 23:58, 47er said:

Just about anything is possible theoretically. For example, we could still be promoted this season.

As Topman says though, we shouldn't go for absolutes in this argument. Ask yourself what was by far the likeliest outcome if Sam had continued to the end of the season?

I'm sure you'd agree we'd have survived comfortably for another season in the Premiership? Very few managers could just about guarantee that with a club of our resources and that's why his sacking was a disaster.

In any case, I doubt whether results or even style had anything to do with it. As others have said, he wasn't in the plan.

But I'm not going for an absolute, I'm saying let it go. Kean kept us up that season so basically my dog was capable of doing that as well, although my dogs growling at me at present. Don't think she likes being compared to Kean. I'm sure I posted it didn't matter as he was a goner the day they bought us, ask andy cole.

  On 08/03/2013 at 08:41, thenodrog said:

Thick kids of low intellect used to get their heads banged together at school to make them learn, it doesn't happen now but too many on here are intent on proving that was a valid and necessary measure.

It's no coincidence that numbnuts blue and white army hasn't replied when I asked him to name a better manager who would have even considered managing BRFC given our situation when they potted Allardyce? To be critical Allardyces style is too pragmatic for some but that contributes to him being just about the safest pair of hands in the business, so its hardly suprising blue and white army has gone quiet on me cos there wasn't one and so he can only open himself to more ridicule if he attempts to. It's a question I've asked on here and around until I'm blue in the face since 2008 without any valid replies to date. Hardly unexpected.

Anyway you can try now if you want. Off you go. You have something I didn't have when I proposed replacing Hughes with Allardyce, you have 4 years of hindsight and even that wont help you .

Well if we're playing this game, then you lose. Some of us said Sam would do exactly what occurred in reality, get results and split the fanbase. One or two of us had the foresight to promote Laudrup, so we'd be league cup winners again and in europe yet again, playing a style that all would have endorsed.

[broadsword]

It's the distant past now, nothing to be gained from arguing the point. Clearly binning Allardyce was a massive screw-up, you only have to look at where we are now to know that. You don't get rid of a manager who's doing well for you.

We have to live in the here and now, as unpleasant as that is. I'm still harbouring hopes that Venky's will sell up at the end of the year.

Please oh Lord.

[Jimmy612]

  On 08/03/2013 at 09:07, Bryan said:

It's the distant past now, nothing to be gained from arguing the point. Clearly binning Allardyce was a massive screw-up, you only have to look at where we are now to know that. You don't get rid of a manager who's doing well for you.

We have to live in the here and now, as unpleasant as that is. I'm still harbouring hopes that Venky's will sell up at the end of the year.

Please oh Lord.

But then what? Who will they sell too? We would be extremely luck to get an owner who is happy to keep us ticking over, never mind one that will throw money at transfers/wages etc.

We couldn't sell as a PL club until You know who was contacted by Rothschild, and he managed to con Venkys. I suspect all we can hope for now is a dare I say it, Ken Bates type. Leeds can kick and scream all they want, he did a bloody good job there. Unfortunately all I can see in the future is a wreck of a football club and it will take a hard business man with a very good business mind to stabilise us and keep us anywhere near the Championship.

God what a difference 2 years makes

[den]

  On 08/03/2013 at 08:59, Majiball said:

But I'm not going for an absolute, I'm saying let it go. Kean kept us up that season so basically my dog was capable of doing that as well, although my dogs growling at me at present. Don't think she likes being compared to Kean. I'm sure I posted it didn't matter as he was a goner the day they bought us, ask andy cole.

Well if we're playing this game, then you lose. Some of us said Sam would do exactly what occurred in reality, get results and split the fanbase. One or two of us had the foresight to promote Laudrup, so we'd be league cup winners again and in europe yet again, playing a style that all would have endorsed.

You keep forgetting that gates rose to an average 25000, with some gates touching 31000 Maj. Sacking Sam means you wont see that anytime soon - if ever. Splitting the fan base is what's happened since.

Your turn.

[yoda]

  On 08/03/2013 at 10:09, den said:

You keep forgetting that gates rose to an average 25000, with some gates touching 31000 Maj. Sacking Sam means you wont see that anytime soon - if ever. Splitting the fan base is what's happened since.

Your turn.

spot on and splitting the fan base made their agenda easier to carry out

[den]

and that's a good point too Yoda.

[thenodrog]

  On 08/03/2013 at 08:59, Majiball said:

But I'm not going for an absolute, I'm saying let it go. Kean kept us up that season so basically my dog was capable of doing that as well, although my dogs growling at me at present. Don't think she likes being compared to Kean. I'm sure I posted it didn't matter as he was a goner the day they bought us, ask andy cole.

Well if we're playing this game, then you lose. Some of us said Sam would do exactly what occurred in reality, get results and split the fanbase. One or two of us had the foresight to promote Laudrup, so we'd be league cup winners again and in europe yet again, playing a style that all would have endorsed.

Nice hindsight Maj! You're quite good at that I note. But Laudrup's carried on where Rogers left off (plus Michu) and imo he's making a very fine job of it up to now but he's only been here 5 mins and would have represented a big gamble when Hughes left. How would you have feel if he had come here and taken over where Ince left off? Do you think he would have turned that around enough to avoid relegation? I'm not so sure given the playing staff that he would but that is just speculation on my part

Anway Maj you reckon to know most things about football stuff ... at least you constantly remind us on here that you do, so in your experience when all our past players are interviewed they nearly all state that they hold Allardyce in great esteem as a top manager. Why do you think that is when their is much more educated opinion like yours found written in coaching manuals and on chalkboards all over the country by countless wise theorists for them to follow? Perhaps it's linked to the old saying around these parts.... "Them as can does and them as can't teaches".

[jim mk2]

  On 08/03/2013 at 08:59, Majiball said:

But I'm not going for an absolute, I'm saying let it go. Kean kept us up that season so basically my dog was capable of doing that as well, although my dogs growling at me at present. Don't think she likes being compared to Kean. I'm sure I posted it didn't matter as he was a goner the day they bought us, ask andy cole.

Talk about rewriting history. To remind you, we were safe in upper-mid table when Kean took over and after a dreadful run under him we were only mathematically safe on the last day. If you're dog's that clever he's wasting his time pi$$ing up lamp posts.

Looking back I was quite hopeful at the end of that season (even with Kean in charge) because towards the end we looked a pretty solid unit with J Jones, NZonzi, P Jones, Givet forming a solid spine with only the Norwegian Diouf looking sub-standard. If we had managed to keep the two Joneses and added Yakubu up front it would have been a decent Prem side (even allowing for Kean).

The £10m asking price for J Jones was steep but considering the dross that has been brought at considerable expense since then it doesn't seem that much now.

[Majiball]

  On 08/03/2013 at 11:27, thenodrog said:

Nice hindsight Maj! You're quite good at that I note. But Laudrup's carried on where Rogers left off (plus Michu) and imo he's making a very fine job of it up to now but he's only been here 5 mins and would have represented a big gamble when Hughes left. How would you have feel if he had come here and taken over where Ince left off? Do you think he would have turned that around enough to avoid relegation? I'm not so sure given the playing staff that he would but that is just speculation on my part

Anway Maj you reckon to know most things about football stuff ... at least you constantly remind us on here that you do, so in your experience when all our past players are interviewed they nearly all state that they hold Allardyce in great esteem as a top manager. Why do you think that is when their is much more educated opinion like yours found written in coaching manuals and on chalkboards all over the country by countless wise theorists for them to follow? Perhaps it's linked to the old saying around these parts.... "Them as can does and them as can't teaches".

Surely given the emoticons it was obvious that I was attempting to be funny. Theno was waving his thing a ling around saying look how big it is, so I decided to join in the contest with a bit of banter and waving my thing a ling around. So them that can't teach and them that can do, LOL. I teach and do, so I think you know where I'd take that one . The agenda / fans split point has been raised before as well and is a good one. LOL I don't constantly remind people at all and if anything that's well rich coming from you. No one is saying Sam's a bad manager but Sam just like certain players and others in life comes with other aspects that detract from what he has done and achieved. No-one in football says a bad thing about anyone, surely people would have learnt that after the Kean era???

Den - Booing when winning with 25,000 fans does add weight to what I'm saying, it happened at Bolton, Newcastle, West Ham now as well. After all he's done at west ham why does he not have a new contract yet? Rumours abound at present that he might be available end of season. He's just that sort of person, he gets results, but rubs people up the wrong way with his comments and method of getting results. A bit like my posting on here. We were cheap as chips then, the cheapest in the country obviously that had nothing to do with our gates increasing at all.

Jim my dogs quite insulted you think Kean's more intelligent than him. Just like Kean he takes commands well, does what he's told but thankfully unlike Kean, Kean only comes out one end. He's also very good at staying still in one place so would look just like Keano in the technical area too. He can also do high fives as well. He's got hair as well.

[JAL]

Can we say one failure for Rovers not beating Bolton was the teams inability to deal with high balls. Which has been a season long problem.

[John]

  On 07/03/2013 at 22:16, Majiball said:

As is what has happened in the past. Sam just doesn't help himself and sitting here with hindsight it was always going to happen. Right or wrong doesn't matter, Sam was a goner from the second the club was sold.

Yeah, the decision was apparently made prior to the sale and Nixon even did a report on it - wonder where he got his info from......

[jim mk2]

  On 08/03/2013 at 12:14, Majiball said:

Den - Booing when winning with 25,000 fans does add weight to what I'm saying, it happened at Bolton, Newcastle, West Ham now as well. After all he's done at west ham why does he not have a new contract yet? Rumours abound at present that he might be available end of season. He's just that sort of person, he gets results, but rubs people up the wrong way with his comments and method of getting results. A bit like my posting on here. We were cheap as chips then, the cheapest in the country obviously that had nothing to do with our gates increasing at all.

J.

Hopefully he will be available, and Venky's might realise the error of their ways and offer him his job back.

But then you might admit you were wrong on him and pigs might fly too.

[den]

  On 08/03/2013 at 12:14, Majiball said:

Den - Booing when winning with 25,000 fans does add weight to what I'm saying, it happened at Bolton, Newcastle, West Ham now as well. After all he's done at west ham why does he not have a new contract yet? Rumours abound at present that he might be available end of season. He's just that sort of person, he gets results, but rubs people up the wrong way with his comments and method of getting results. A bit like my posting on here. We were cheap as chips then, the cheapest in the country obviously that had nothing to do with our gates increasing at all.

Booing when 3-0 up, hardly shows a split in the fan base does it Maj? It shows something rather more obvious than that. 25000 thousand fans were still turning up to watch winning football, even the ones booing still went down to Ewood, so they couldn't have hated it that much.

The old argument that they were only turning up because tickets were cheap is just, well, simply inaccurate. There was a "take back initiative" - that's true, but if people aren't happy with what they're seeing, they wont come. Tickets are cheap as chips now Maj, but thousands of ex-fans wouldn't go if they were free.

[Majiball]

  On 08/03/2013 at 12:56, jim mk2 said:

Hopefully he will be available, and Venky's might realise the error of their ways and offer him his job back.

But then you might admit you were wrong on him and pigs might fly too.

I challenge you to find a single post where I call for him to be sacked, I called for better football, but not once did I say that. He can do it we saw it ourselves. Sam wouldn't come back here and work for Venky's.

Den - If Sam was loved and adored by all, no-one would have booed, it hardly shows support for him either. Yes people were turning up we had 22,000 odd regulars before Sam even stepped foot at Ewood. Not liking the manager or style isn't enough to stop going as we know it takes much much more as we saw under Kean. You'll have to enlighten me to your obvious point. I remember people calling for his head after that poor run and posts on here were always split over him. Sam gets results, I've never said otherwise, but he's like marmite. Cheapest way to watch live premier league football in the country and I'm sure that played a small part in things. I'd like to see how attendances compared between Sam's era and hughes as under both results were decent but ticket prices rather different. Even under Kean last season after everything attendances were still strong for the most part. I just don't feel you can use attendances to say there was no ill feeling towards Sam, there must have been otherwise JW would have got him the second Hughes left, but even he feared the back-lash.

[Baz]

  On 07/03/2013 at 15:15, Parsonblue said:

The alternative seems to be to sack him and appoint a new guy on the strict understanding that if he doesn't get results in the first ten games he too will be sacked. Four or five managers a season could be the norm if some had their way.

Its only worth giving the right manager time. Kean is proof of that.

Appleton is a breath of fresh air in the press, however actions speak far louder than words. My concern is his signings.

The season in terms of promotion is over, but in terms of getting the core of a team together it isnt. His summer signings, plus his ability to get the best out of the current squad will determine the future of our club.

[darrenrover]

Just to play devils advocate,

IMO, Sam was a safe pair of hands, effective but bored every bugger to death. He also liked to play the big I am which played right into the hands of The Venky Mob, hence he was potted.

We all know what's happened since heaven forbid.

I accept where we are now is where we are now, a bloody train wreck and wish MA well and so hope he can turn things round for all our sakes.

Foolishly, at the time I was glad to see Sam go but given the benefit of hindsight I would be ecstatic if he were at the helm now.

As always, be careful what you wish for...........

[Exiled in Toronto]

If we're mired in misty-eyed nostalgia, give me Hughes anytime, had us actually challenging for 4th place and doing well in Europe. That was the golden era that should have led to better things.

[RockinRover]

You're kidding right? We were never challenging for 4th. Back then the big four of Manchester United, Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool were still going strong and they never really gave up their spots. We were challenging for the UEFA Cup places but never the Champions League places.

[Stuart]

  On 09/03/2013 at 02:45, RockinRover said:

You're kidding right? We were never challenging for 4th. Back then the big four of Manchester United, Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool were still going strong and they never really gave up their spots. We were challenging for the UEFA Cup places but never the Champions League places.

Go and have a look at the 2004/05 league table...

[thenodrog]

  On 09/03/2013 at 01:38, Exiled in Toronto said:

If we're mired in misty-eyed nostalgia, give me Hughes anytime, had us actually challenging for 4th place and doing well in Europe. That was the golden era that should have led to better things.

Indeed so. But unfortunately it was not a choice we had. We could not stop Hughes leaving (or maybe we could with better management) whereas sacking Allardyce was just suicide and seen as much by many at the time. Credit to darrenrover for admitting the errors of his judgement. More than a few should take a leaf out of his book.