[Archived] David Dunn a Blackburn Legend

[Rover_Shaun]

Rochina or Dunn, who would you pick?

Williamson or hopefully Jones

[darrenrover]

Not hate Abbey. I love watching Dunny, always have and I admire his ability immensely, but I refuse to put the telescope on the eye patch and ignore his matches lost to injury. I've seen it all far too often and imo he has been intentionally swinging the lead and playing injured in order to prolongue his income stream. If he isn't then the alternative is that he is a crock that we don't need and can't afford. It's a well worn tactic employed by certain players and certain agents in football. We have all seen DD rise from his sickbed and play some marvellous matches but usually everytime his contract is coming up for renewal. Dunny is only slightly above Vince Grella in swinging the lead and extorting money from BRFC imo. I repeat... unless he is willing to sign on a pay as you play deal then he has to be potted.

I disagree with you Theno. You miss out one salient point, the club needs a heartbeat from within and Dunny, on the senior playing staff is the only one that can genuinely give that.

I won't procrastinate as to why because its bloody obvious. With his sublime ability, even in cameos, his genuine feelings for the club, there is nobody better currently to play the role of talisman. Unless you know different................?

[Mike E]

Williamson or hopefully Jones

As second striker? Thankfully you ain't managin'

[Rover_Shaun]

2nd striker my arse. They never hardly get up to support the striker. Hence Rhodes is more isolated than St Helena. Football is a simple game at this level and a system with TWO 'real' stikers coupled with some width would suffice

[Andy]

Rochina or Dunn, who would you pick?

Rochina, by a million miles.

It'd be interesting to see one of those 'points when Rochina/Dunn plays' comparisons, as we mostly seemed to be getting results when Rochina was in the team.

[thenodrog]

I disagree with you Theno. You miss out one salient point, the club needs a heartbeat from within and Dunny, on the senior playing staff is the only one that can genuinely give that.

I won't procrastinate as to why because its bloody obvious. With his sublime ability, even in cameos, his genuine feelings for the club, there is nobody better currently to play the role of talisman. Unless you know different................?

Really darren? Difficult to be all that from the treatment table wouldn't you say? And if all that were accurate wouldn't he have been every managers Captain?

Not only that but SKH informs us that last season he started just 9 matches. Making a big assumption (cos I don't know) and assuming that he's on circa 1.5m pa then his remuneration works out somewhere in the region of £166,000 per match! Who outside of the top 4 clubs in the Prem can go with that? And especially when most of his appearences last about 60 minutes.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

2nd striker my arse. They never hardly get up to support the striker. Hence Rhodes is more isolated than St Helena. Football is a simple game at this level and a system with TWO 'real' stikers coupled with some width would suffice

Well it is if you go back in time 15 years. These days it seems just as many sides play 4-5-1 with a large amount of creativity coming from the second striker/attacking midfielder. The fact that Rochina was our joint 2nd top scorer in the league despite playing half a season shows how unsuccessful giving Rhodes' "real" striker partners was last season. Maybe it'll be different this season though if Best gets his act together. Its always nice to have different options going forward though, what happens if we play a team with 2 excellent centre halves who have our strikers in their pockets? Managers always need a plan B.

[thenodrog]

Well it is if you go back in time 15 years. These days it seems just as many sides play 4-5-1 with a large amount of creativity coming from the second striker/attacking midfielder. The fact that Rochina was our joint 2nd top scorer in the league despite playing half a season shows how unsuccessful giving Rhodes' "real" striker partners was last season. Maybe it'll be different this season though if Best gets his act together. Its always nice to have different options going forward though, what happens if we play a team with 2 excellent centre halves who have our strikers in their pockets? Managers always need a plan B.

Any physical centre half appears to be able to dominate JR quite easily.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

Any physical centre half appears to be able to dominate JR quite easily.

Can't stop him scoring though can they, even when his service consists of 1 decent ball in 90 minutes.

[thenodrog]

Can't stop him scoring though can they, even when his service consists of 1 decent ball in 90 minutes.

Maybe not although the ponderous Shittu did....

Jordan Rhodes is a conundrum. His strength is his finishing inside the box ... full stop (not a bad strength to have btw). The weakness with Rhodes is that when he isn't sticking it in the net he simply cannot hold the ball up with the result that clearences just keep on relentlessly coming back at our defence with the predictable and usual inevitable outcome. Once he has scored his goal he may as well come off, get wrapped in cotton wool until his next outing and leave the team to defend that lead with 10 men. That way we should avoid relegation by the skin of our teeth every season.

Good managers realise the value of 'defending from the front' and good managers will not imo pay in the teens of millions for Jordan Rhodes. I've a feeling that if he stays this summer that he will walk away for nowt in 2 years time. Can we afford to effectively keep a championship proven striker who costs us 80k pw?

[Rover_Shaun]

Still find it chucklesome how much stock people place on formations at this low level. Football is about fluid and organised treamplay and not about silly phone number like formations. This is the championship. the bread and butter league and playing two strikers and having width would work far better than last seasons failed attempt to use a midfielder as support to the lone striker......a striker so isolated he had a seperate postcode. All we need is a decent 2nd striker as we sure as hell don't have one on our books presently.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

Still find it chucklesome how much stock people place on formations at this low level. Football is about fluid and organised treamplay and not about silly phone number like formations. This is the championship. the bread and butter league and playing two strikers and having width would work far better than last seasons failed attempt to use a midfielder as support to the lone striker......a striker so isolated he had a seperate postcode. All we need is a decent 2nd striker as we sure as hell don't have one on our books presently.

Seems like you're putting more stock in formations than me though. I'm saying try both, 4-4-2 and 4-5-1, at different points, and so make sure we have the players in our squad to do both. You're saying we should always be playing 4-4-2 and always play with width. Thats a formation, one that isn't particularly strong defensively and that relies on a method of attacking that has been combatted in recent times by increasingly fast fullbacks that stop wingers getting to the byeline and increasingly cynical defending that stops strikers, through obstruction usually, getting on the end of crosses.

[Rover_Shaun]

What you describe has been evident for years. the 70s and 80s were far more cynical. scoring is our problem. remove rhodes and it is pathetic

[thenodrog]

Still find it chucklesome how much stock people place on formations at this low level. Football is about fluid and organised treamplay and not about silly phone number like formations. This is the championship. the bread and butter league and playing two strikers and having width would work far better than last seasons failed attempt to use a midfielder as support to the lone striker......a striker so isolated he had a seperate postcode. All we need is a decent 2nd striker as we sure as hell don't have one on our books presently.

Depends very much on the opposition and their tactics. Against some outfits and mostly away from home 4-4-2 is suicidal...... albeit much depending on the personell of course.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

What you describe has been evident for years. the 70s and 80s were far more cynical.

I'd disagree with that. The 70s and 80s were far more dirty, but it was a very obvious dirtiness. What goes on now is generally upper body obstructions, shirt-pulling, holding down etc. So much cynical off the ball grappling now goes on, seen so many times a striker busting a gut to get on the end of a cross but the defender tracking him will come to a dead stop at the last second subtly obstructing him. On the crosses that flash right across the box with nobody getting a touch thats usually the case, the defender hasn't got anything on it either because all they've been concerned about is blocking the striker. 20 years there was Shearer, Sutton, Ferdinand, Duncan Ferguson, Chris Armstrong, Brian Deane, Collymore, Sheringham, Dublin, Hartson, all thrived on crosses and scored bags of headed goals. Doesn't happen anymore, defenders have realised its more effective to block a striker than to challenge for the ball and risk being outjumped. Only Crouch seems to regularly get on the end of them now because he's even better at cynically fouling than a lot of defenders are.

[Rover_Shaun]

It doesn't happen because good strikers are thin on the ground. Especially English ones. Managers are too pre-occupied with playing square pegs in round holes and phone number style formations to bother about actually scoring goals...after all it is the only true objective

[Amo]

Rochina or Dunn, who would you pick?

Rochina. He's guaranteed to score more goals than Dunn, as last season proved.

[thenodrog]

I'd disagree with that. The 70s and 80s were far more dirty, but it was a very obvious dirtiness. What goes on now is generally upper body obstructions, shirt-pulling, holding down etc. So much cynical off the ball grappling now goes on, seen so many times a striker busting a gut to get on the end of a cross but the defender tracking him will come to a dead stop at the last second subtly obstructing him. On the crosses that flash right across the box with nobody getting a touch thats usually the case, the defender hasn't got anything on it either because all they've been concerned about is blocking the striker. 20 years there was Shearer, Sutton, Ferdinand, Duncan Ferguson, Chris Armstrong, Brian Deane, Collymore, Sheringham, Dublin, Hartson, all thrived on crosses and scored bags of headed goals. Doesn't happen anymore, defenders have realised its more effective to block a striker than to challenge for the ball and risk being outjumped. Only Crouch seems to regularly get on the end of them now because he's even better at cynically fouling than a lot of defenders are.

It's mainly down to poor refereeing. How else would Ryan Shawcross ever get an England cap?

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

It's mainly down to poor refereeing. How else would Ryan Shawcross ever get an England cap?

I'd agree with you to an extent, however I think the main culprit is the simple evolution of the game and the way the rule makers sometimes take a while to catch up. Tackles straight through the back of players were a problem before FIFA started deeming it an instant card, then it was diving until that got the same response, then 2-footed tackles before they were assigned red card status. Subtle but continuous upper body grappling is the latest epidemic to sully the game and until FIFA issue a co-ordinated drive to wipe it out, refs are always risking putting their head above the parapet if they personally decide to punish it. You get managers launching rants against them that include the line "if you punish that then there'll be 10 penalties a game".

[DanLad]

I'd agree with you to an extent, however I think the main culprit is the simple evolution of the game and the way the rule makers sometimes take a while to catch up. Tackles straight through the back of players were a problem before FIFA started deeming it an instant card, then it was diving until that got the same response, then 2-footed tackles before they were assigned red card status. Subtle but continuous upper body grappling is the latest epidemic to sully the game and until FIFA issue a co-ordinated drive to wipe it out, refs are always risking putting their head above the parapet if they personally decide to punish it. You get managers launching rants against them that include the line "if you punish that then there'll be 10 penalties a game".

If it was punished there would be one penalty, maybe two, and that would be that. All of a sudden we would stop this pathetic half-wrestle we see at every set piece.

TBH the wrestling is embarrassing. It's no wonder the yanks snickering at us.

[T.J.Newton]

our problem last year(and for the last 5 years or so) is keeping possession of the ball, its pointless playing 5 midfielders if there just going to be bypassed(allardyce style) or just lacking the ability to string two passes together(post allardyce style) basically whatever formation you play you need players with ability and the right mentality(if you want to do well)

[arbitro]

I'd agree with you to an extent, however I think the main culprit is the simple evolution of the game and the way the rule makers sometimes take a while to catch up. Tackles straight through the back of players were a problem before FIFA started deeming it an instant card, then it was diving until that got the same response, then 2-footed tackles before they were assigned red card status. Subtle but continuous upper body grappling is the latest epidemic to sully the game and until FIFA issue a co-ordinated drive to wipe it out, refs are always risking putting their head above the parapet if they personally decide to punish it. You get managers launching rants against them that include the line "if you punish that then there'll be 10 penalties a game".

You make a really good point about FIFA being reactive rather than proactive. However stopping the grappling will only work with a zero tolerance approach from every referee. Several years ago I was refereeing a game at Huddersfield (against Northampton) and from the first minute Efe Sodje and Clive Platt were holding each other every time the ball came into the penalty area from set plays. I spoke to them both several times to no avail. Just before half time Sodje yanked Platts shirt in a crowded penalty area and I gave a penalty. The problem for me was that nobody else saw it and therefore it was impossible to sell my decision to the other players and the crowd. I was even accused of being a rascist by a Huddersfield fan for 'singling Sodje out' and penalizing him. Even on the video it wasn't clear as the penalty area was crowded.

Similarly I recall Andre Ooijer being penalised on his debut and Grant Hanley at Fulham a few years ago. Both were met with surprise by players and fans alike.

[gumboots]

At Ewood it wasn't just that the pen was given against Ooijer, but that the foul was on Terry who is one of the worst for pulling, pushing and otherwise blocking an opponent. If the rule was applied consistently, the offences would stop but then they'd only find something else to get up to

[thenodrog]

You make a really good point about FIFA being reactive rather than proactive. However stopping the grappling will only work with a zero tolerance approach from every referee. Several years ago I was refereeing a game at Huddersfield (against Northampton) and from the first minute Efe Sodje and Clive Platt were holding each other every time the ball came into the penalty area from set plays. I spoke to them both several times to no avail. Just before half time Sodje yanked Platts shirt in a crowded penalty area and I gave a penalty. The problem for me was that nobody else saw it and therefore it was impossible to sell my decision to the other players and the crowd. I was even accused of being a rascist by a Huddersfield fan for 'singling Sodje out' and penalizing him. Even on the video it wasn't clear as the penalty area was crowded.

Similarly I recall Andre Ooijer being penalised on his debut and Grant Hanley at Fulham a few years ago. Both were met with surprise by players and fans alike.

From the look of incredulity on players faces when they are punished I get the impression that they don't believe all that grappling and shirt pulling they have committed is deemed foul play. Is that what they are taught in the Academies these days?

[arbitro]

From the look of incredulity on players faces when they are punished I get the impression that they don't believe all that grappling and shirt pulling they have committed is deemed foul play. Is that what they are taught in the Academies these days?

I think they just mimic what they see being done on TV at Premier League level and believe they can do it and get away with it although blocking does seem to be a tactic used at Academy level. The whole spirit of fair play (despite the lip service from FIFA) seems to have gone altogether. In one of my last seasons I was doing a game in the Blackburn Sunday League and I cautioned a player for a blatant act of simulation trying to win a penalty. I was astounded by this. I have seen kids holding, pulling and pushing at all levels and their coaches/managers not chastising them. The desire to win at all costs overrides any sense of fair play in my opinion.