[Archived] David Dunn a Blackburn Legend

[den]

But a poor team managed by Kenny or Hughes would have finished higher than a better standard one managed by Ince or Kean. I'm not sure you believe that to be the case.

Yes I do.

It's a guage of how managers can improve a squad - and in my opinion, the only way to improve a team in any significant way, is to bring in better players. One absolutely certain way of weakening a side is to sell the best players - so if man management/tactics or whatever were so important, then selling them might not make a significant difference. However, it always does.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

Yes I do.

It's a guage of how managers can improve a squad - and in my opinion, the only way to improve a team in any significant way, is to bring in better players. One absolutely certain way of weakening a side is to sell the best players - so if man management/tactics or whatever were so important, then selling them might not make a significant difference. However, it always does.

Ok then, how many players out of the squad that finished in the top 10 three seasons running under Hughes went on to regularly play for top 10 clubs? I get Craig Bellamy. And if you're being generous Friedel.

That wasn't a top 10 squad by any stretch of the imagination, and it finished in the top 10 three times, and was closer to the Champions League than the bottom half of one of those occasions.

Its pretty staggering that you think managers make no difference apart from which players they sign. As jim says, there's a mountain of evidence to the contrary throughout football.

[Amo]

Its pretty staggering that you think managers make no difference apart from which players they sign. As jim says, there's a mountain of evidence to the contrary throughout football.

I've tried to comprehend it myself and failed many times. Den will deny he believes that but his posts only lead to that conclusion.

[Stuart]

Ok then, how many players out of the squad that finished in the top 10 three seasons running under Hughes went on to regularly play for top 10 clubs? I get Craig Bellamy. And if you're being generous Friedel.

That wasn't a top 10 squad by any stretch of the imagination, and it finished in the top 10 three times, and was closer to the Champions League than the bottom half of one of those occasions.

Its pretty staggering that you think managers make no difference apart from which players they sign. As jim says, there's a mountain of evidence to the contrary throughout football.

You are creating very specific criteria to meet your argument.

Hughes brought in some quality players and we were the proof of their quality - we were top 10. A manager organises and inspires but unless you have the quality it doesn't matter. Also Hughes left because we wouldn't back his need for quality players. A quality manager proved the rule for us.

We had some great players at the right time, Hughes helped them find their form...

Friedel, Oojier, Warnock, Samba, Nelsen, Emerton, Satna Cruz, McCarthy, Bentley, Reid, N'Zonzi, Henchoz, Neill, Bellamy, Sinema-Pongolle, Flitcroft, Short, Pedersen, Jansen.

Some of those commanded BIG transfer fees, others could have, some I've stretched.

For me, it's a mix of quality players and a quality manager, not one or the other.

[Gav]

So whats this nonsence got to do with David Dunn?

[den]

So whats this nonsence got to do with David Dunn?

nothing Gav.

Its pretty staggering that you think managers make no difference apart from which players they sign. As jim says, there's a mountain of evidence to the contrary throughout football.

What isn't so staggering is you misunderstanding what I've said. and that wasn't what I've said.

[Gav]

nothing Gav.

Well maybe it belongs on its own thread then?

[47er]

Shilton and Francis were great players he bought in. Anderson came through the ranks, Clarke was unheard of. Lloyd was washed up as was Robertson, Burns was a troublemaker - no-one else would touch those three, Leeds couldn't wait to move McGovern on, Birtles flopped at United. The fact is only 2 of those players were great under anyone else than Clough

EIT has it right Den. I'm not really sure what you are trying to say tbh, but if you are saying selling your best players invariably leaves you much worse off, then I can relate to that!

[den]

EIT has it right Den. I'm not really sure what you are trying to say tbh, but if you are saying selling your best players invariably leaves you much worse off, then I can relate to that!

OK.

Forest won the european cup due to the quality of players, far more than they did through any tactical influence. Those Forest players were top quality, not average players. No team has ever won the european cup with average players.

Rovers are where they are because they sold good players and brought in a load of foreign nobodies who couldn't play the English game, rather than a managers poor tactics.

Hughes improved rovers by bringing in top quaity players like Bellamy, Bentley, Nelsen, RSC, Savage and others, rather than by any tactical genius he had. Before these players arrived we were pretty poor.

If Roy Hodgson was an excellent coach and tactician, why did he fail so badly here? Because he bought the Daily's and Peacocks of this world.

My point is that a manager succeeds far more by improving the playing staff, than he does any other way, and if rovers currently improve to the levels needed to get out of this league, then it will be done by bringing in better players than we currently have. We wont get out of this lague, or anywhere near using the current squad and tampering with tactics/team selection/formations.

It's so obvious.

I'm done before Gav makes me the first poster to have their posting regulated.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

When Brian Clough took over at Forest they were in almost the same position as Rovers are now. He had inherited a rag bag squad of wasters and losers. That is a fact. They were in the Division we are in now.

He managed to organise the existing squad, weed out the wasters, and bring in several new players who were scouted by Cloughie's greatest asset, Peter Taylor, his assistant. Most of these players were average in ability but were winners when it came to mental attitude. Over the next few years he gradually replace the average players by good players and then replaced the good players by great players. That's how you win league titles and European Cups.

[joey_big_nose]

OK.

Forest won the european cup due to the quality of players, far more than they did through any tactical influence. Those Forest players were top quality, not average players. No team has ever won the european cup with average players

You are distorting Mr hypnotoads point. He is not saying that Nottingham Forest were bad. Just they weren't s good as a large amount of teams in Europe. It was Cloughie who made them winners.

Your view is just a bit simplistic den. Players are important. Tactics and managers also are. Player for player man utd have been outclassed by city and chelsea for years. Yet Fergie wins matches.

[47er]

So Den, we agree that this is a poor squad? And there's a fair few injuries?

Suppose Bowyer comes in and has great success with them for these last games (as he did last time), what would that do to your view of things?

[Gav]

.

Forest won the european cup due to the quality of players, far more than they did through any tactical influence. Those Forest players were top

I'm done before Gav makes me the first poster to have their posting regulated.

You can tell the key players in the 'moderation world' are away at the momen,t as another thread is lost to tittle tattle

[Amo]

Someone wants to be a moderator when he grows up.

[Mike E]

You can tell the key players in the 'moderation world' are away at the momen,t as another thread is lost to tittle tattle

It's only a gentle rib GAV, nae bother haha.

[thenodrog]

Shilton and Francis were great players he bought in. Anderson came through the ranks, Clarke was unheard of. Lloyd was washed up as was Robertson, Burns was a troublemaker - no-one else would touch those three, Leeds couldn't wait to move McGovern on, Birtles flopped at United. The fact is only 2 of those players were great under anyone else than Clough

Indeed. Left winger Robertson was an alecan too allegedly. I've got to say that Kenny Burns was one of the best centre halves of that era. Clough in effect through financial necessity signed the 70's equivalents of Joey Barton, Sav, Andy Todd, EHD etc. Talented but so troublesom that managers of bigger clubs had given up on them, and through his own personality successfully moulded them into team players. I rem the only player that Clough signed and failed with was the most naturally talented of them all... Stan Bowles. His addiction to gambling saw him sign for Forest on the condition that they paid the bookies for the massive debt he had stacked up whilst at QPR.

You can tell the key players in the 'moderation world' are away at the momen,t as another thread is lost to tittle tattle

It's a football message board and it's about football. This has been an interesting read. If it's meandered this way then it's prob because their is not much more to say about Dunny.

[forumquizmaster]

Indeed. Left winger Robertson was an alecan too allegedly. I've got to say that Kenny Burns was one of the best centre halves of that era. Clough in effect through financial necessity signed the 70's equivalents of Joey Barton, Sav, Andy Todd, EHD etc. Talented but so troublesom that managers of bigger clubs had given up on them, and through his own personality successfully moulded them into team players. I rem the only player that Clough signed and failed with was the most naturally talented of them all... Stan Bowles. His addiction to gambling saw him sign for Forest on the condition that they paid the bookies for the massive debt he had stacked up whilst at QPR.

It's a football message board and it's about football. This has been an interesting read. If it's meandered this way then it's prob because their is not much more to say about Dunny.

While I don't dispute the fact that Clough did work wonders with these guys (Robertson being perhaps the best example, he was an overweight, chain smoking heavy drinker - but also a top bloke, my family and I had the pleasure of his company in Majorca a decade ago, while he was with Martin O'Neill at Celtic) it would be remiss not to mention the influence Peter Taylor had on these successes. I understand it was he who actually identified the players to sign. So while Clough was undoubtedly the 'special one' of his day, he needed the guidance of Taylor by his side or it wouldn't have worked.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

Brilliant today Dunny. Thats why he keeps getting offered new contracts by the way to all the fans who question it. Cause he's twice as good as anyone else in our squad when fit.

[thenodrog]

Brilliant today Dunny. Thats why he keeps getting offered new contracts by the way to all the fans who question it. Cause he's twice as good as anyone else in our squad when fit.

You must have left after 65 mins I presume?

[Tom]

I thought he looked like what we expect him to look like based on the last couple of years rather than Dingle Destroyer Dunn today

Tried to do too much in his own half and was wasteful, at least he was trying to make things happen mind you

[Stuart]

It's amazing how people see things differently.

A new contract? Hope you're joking SKH!

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

Certainly is amazing. The last 3 games are the first little run in a good while where we've matched the opposition for possession and raised the shots count into double figures. Keep hearing that Rhodes has gone off the boil, Best still doesn't seem fit, heard a lot of fans slate King today (although I thought he was quite good). Jones is a donkey and Lowe/Williamson are grafters. So who's doing all this then? Either its Dunn or its a ghost.

Find it astonishing that his importance as one of maybe 2 players we now have with PL quality is dismissed. Yeah he tired today and should have been taken off about 20 minutes before he was but whats wrong with that? He's 33 and thats what subs are for. If Dunn isn't offered a new contract he'll be replaced with some £1m journeyman on £15k a week who's lack of contribution in possession will reflect exactly what he cost us. Pretty much like the rest of our centre midfield are now. Without Dunn on the pitch Rhodes would have touched the ball about 3 times yesterday.

[DE.]

Dunn won't play enough games to make a contract extension worthwhile, though, SKH. If he agreed to a pay-as-you-play deal I'd consider keeping him on, but I think he'll get better offers from elsewhere (Dubai/USA).

[thenodrog]

One or two players were trying to dribble in our own half and lost posession in dangerous areas as a result. Dunn, Jones and King spring to mind of gifting Blackpool posession in dangerous areas. The great Bill Shankly would have strung them up! The only place to try to dribble around anybody or try any fancy tricks and flicks is in and around the opposition pen area. All play should be 1 or 2 touch passing to teammates in space before moving into space themselves until then. Simple and uncomplicated.

[RevidgeBlue]

I thought Dunn had an off day yesterday, his fitness looked good by his standards but he was desperately wasteful with his final ball having got himself into dangerous areas.

If he's a regular starter between now and the end of the season, I think he'll have far better games.

As to whether he should get a new contract, heart says yes, head says no.

I'd imagine even so called "pay as you play" deals incorporate a fairly hefty basic these days so it's really a question only the medical staff can answer. If his fitness could be more or less guaranteed, maybe. If not then no.