[Archived] Battersby and Currie

[bob fleming]

The involvement of the 2 Ian's and or the trust is irrelevant to me as neither have the finances to sustain the Club.

Really Rev? Got a link? A quote? Or is that just a massive assumption? Let's face it Rev, you know exactly the same as the rest of us about the "2 Ian's" and their backers. i.e. next to nothing, just as it should be in all fairness.

Say what you want about Venkys, but at least they appear to be paying the bills.

That's the least they can do while completely ruining the football club. Even then you, like Rev, are making a massive assumption.

[AndyC]

Why are you reading it in disbelief?

I would want owners that wanted to run the Club on a break even basis, not those who looked upon it as an investment wanting to line their pockets.

The involvement of the 2 Ian's and or the trust is irrelevant to me as neither have the finances to sustain the Club.

I'm sure we'd all want owners running the club to just break even.

But if the choice is between the 2 Ian's and venkys, which would you prefer? The venkys have shown themselves to be complicit in asset stripping the club and spending no money.

What's the total spent, versus total incoming now?

Clubs like Swansea , show there is a model to make modest profits and thrive in the premier league. It comes down to expert management

[47er]

Maybe so. And until Jack came along we had 26 years outside of the top flight and precious little to cheer about in relative terms unless you can call a Full Members Cup triumph a major achievement.

Even so though, there is still all the difference in the world between selling the odd player from time to time to pay the bills or if they want to leave under committed owners such as Bancroft/Brown/Fox who are in it for the love of it and not for their own financial ends as opposed to having a deliberate policy of selling players to produce a profit for shareholders which is the potential drawback to Battersby style "investors"

Amen to that Eddie. Amen to that.

Best piece of advice on here for a very long time imo.

So now we know! If Venkys sold to a 2 Ians consortium, with or without Rovers Trust involvement,you and Eddie would be disappointed about it! You've written this on the same day you've read about the pathetic goings on at the High Court over Berg's compensation!

Absolutely barking mad, both of you!

[CapeTownRover]

Why is that as good as it gets? Good intention doesn't take you very far.

The club runs at a massive loss at the moment and, even if you make radical changes in the business strategy straight away, that will continue for some time without a return to the Premier League.

It's as if so many on here think that caring owners will somehow find the way to pay for player transfers and wages, not to mention the other overheads of running a football club.

Say what you want about Venkys, but at least they appear to be paying the bills. Until another group is found that actually has the financial power to seriously invest in the club on an annual basis, the intent of the Trust should be to improve Venksy management, not to replace it with some do-gooders who can't back themselves up.

are they Eddie? that is the big question though, because lets face it, its still a grey area and one of concern. If its out of their own pockets, then fair play to them. However, if it is not, then we have big big problems.

like i said, it doesnt necessarily mean that Battersby and Currie will be in it alone, they are smart enough to realise this. If they can afford to run the club without any other investors, then so much better. Their plan should be to hold a contolling stake in the club, and bring in wealthy backers. If things do go south, they hold the power to make any changes where necessary without a repeat of current happenings. Im not pro or anti Battersby and Currie, but i would much rather take my chance with them, than Venkys right now.

[TBTF]

Paying the bills yes maybe but with someone else's money

Exactly! Are they actually paying the bills??? I think there is real fear among a growing group that they have built up debt and will clear it with parachute money they have already borrowed against before chucking the keys in and leaving us to rot with no income.If people like Dan Grabko are concerned about that then you would think it is with good reason.

Jesus Christ, the Club is fighting for its life and between the Trust and the Ian's- and BRAG in their own way-we have committed fans who are working their nuts off to try and save its ass and people want to pick and choose what they want. Incredible.

If you're dropped off at the North Pole wearing a tee shirt and someone offered you a coat would you turn it away because it wasnt Armani??

The Club is disappearing up its own backside whilst these morons cheat and lie to themselves in a bloody High Court for christs sake.They don't give a monkeys as the club is trashed uphill and down dale.

Still until we find a Rovers loving oligarch in Lower Darwen some don't want an alternative course of action.

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

The future is a bleak one under Venky's and no one can dress matters up differently.The club needs a complete change of direction away from the Punatics or we simply stagnate or even worse!

[John]

All the money being shipped out in terms of severance pay, hush hush money, agents fees, high wage bill - there must be a financial crash on the horizon - how exactly are Venky's funding this?

What is the financial operating model of their parent company, surely as a business their main objective is not to throw cash down the drain continuously........or are they even in the full possession of the facts re the financial state of the club I wonder - or maybe they don't listen to people like Silk etc.

[Athlete]

Exactly! Are they actually paying the bills??? I think there is real fear among a growing group that they have built up debt and will clear it with parachute money they have already borrowed against before chucking the keys in and leaving us to rot with no income.If people like Dan Grabko are concerned about that then you would think it is with good reason.

Jesus Christ, the Club is fighting for its life and between the Trust and the Ian's- and BRAG in their own way-we have committed fans who are working their nuts off to try and save its ass and people want to pick and choose what they want. Incredible.

If you're dropped off at the North Pole wearing a tee shirt and someone offered you a coat would you turn it away because it wasnt Armani??

The Club is disappearing up its own backside whilst these morons cheat and lie to themselves in a bloody High Court for christs sake.They don't give a monkeys as the club is trashed uphill and down dale.

Still until we find a Rovers loving oligarch in Lower Darwen some don't want an alternative course of action.

thats why I put maybe.....as I dont think they are wellif they are its on borrowed cash agaisnt possibly parachute payments....when a finance director hands in her notice you know somethings about to hit the fan

[John]

Any word on Silk btw, do we know if she has resigned or just speculation?

[tomphil]

It just shows what kind of people they are when it comes down to business with all the ducking and diving they are doing over the Berg issue that's been made public. Changing solicitors at the 11th hour, keeping witnesess in India, passing the buck and generally playing dumb, (something they excell at). If they are like this over what must be a trfiling sum of money to them then what have they been like with the takeover and all other dealings since then? It paints a mirky picture.

[Eddie]

Really Rev? Got a link? A quote? Or is that just a massive assumption? Let's face it Rev, you know exactly the same as the rest of us about the "2 Ian's" and their backers. i.e. next to nothing, just as it should be in all fairness.

That's the least they can do while completely ruining the football club. Even then you, like Rev, are making a massive assumption.

Are we making a massive assumption? As far as we can tell the facts are as follows:

- All bills are being paid (with the occasional mishap, but paid nonetheless)

- We are operating at a massive loss.

- There has been some borrowing, but, as far as we can tell, personal assets, rather than club assets, are being used as collateral.

It is actually others that are making a massive assumption. There is little proof to show that Venkys aren't financially committed to the club, but it is clear that they are simply poorly advised and incompetent.

[den]

Are we making a massive assumption? As far as we can tell the facts are as follows:

Lol.

[philipl]

I believe Karen Silk is serving out her notice period.

[Muddboy]

Can't believe some people don't think the Venky's brand has been damaged by what's happened during the last two years. Unbelievable.

PR is all about managing the reputation of your business or brand. That includes what people think of your business or brand and what they say about it. If you don't take control of this, people are free to judge you any way they see fit.

That's where Venky's have fallen woefully short. I challenge anyone in the UK or India to speak positivley about Venky's since they took over the mighty BRFC and reduced it to the quivering excuse of a 'professional' business that we see today.

[Amo]

As regards the Ian's and their supposed "investors", would people be happy either with

a) Completely anonymous owners we didn't know the identity of? or

b ) Owners who made no bones about the fact players had to be sold on a consistent conveyor belt basis to produce them a profit?

I wouldn't.

You're right to be sceptical, Rev, but frankly I wouldn't care so long as it got results. Let's face it, barring a oligarch-style takeover, a club like ours will have to be run very astutely in order to keep its head above water, which means investing (and unearthing) in players that can balance the books. If that means we get to see more Duffs, Joneses, Bentleys Santa Cruzs, et al. then I'm not complaining.

If the alternative's Venky's leading us towards third division football, and financial meltdown, then I'd rather the devil we DON'T know on this occasion.

[West Yorks Rover]

I'm glad you're not the brand manager at my company!

Awareness of any kind , at any cost is not welcome. In this day and age where there is so much consumer choice for products, and ever more increasing levels of transparancy demanded by the public, the venkys would be in a terrible situation if they decided to launch here. Can you imagine the negative publicity that would be garnered?

I read your post earlier, I thought I would ask a few friends in the pub where I went for my lunch, what they thought of Venky's

and would they eat at Venky's Xpress outlet if one opened locally.

Out of the 5 people I asked, of which 4 are football fans, none of them said it would have any effect whatsoever, on their decision

as to whether they would make a purchase, all more or less stating that just because they are bad at football ownership does'nt

mean their chicken meals are cr*p. we had quite a good conversation about it and even looked at some pictures online of Venky's

outlets in India, all agreed that they looked very professional( at least as good as KFC) and clearly Venky's know what they are doing

in their own business was the general opinion.

Now if Venky's opened say 300 outlets and they were found not to be paying their fare share of UK taxes, I think In the present

climate they may have a problem.

How did I know I the above would be the case ? studying people over 40 years in business, you can't beat experience my son !

[AggyBlue]

I believe Karen Silk is serving out her notice period.

I presume she wont have signed a NDA then, however I don't expect her to spill the beans on a former employer, it wouldn't look good on her CV.

[Sparky Marky]

Really Rev? Got a link? A quote? Or is that just a massive assumption? Let's face it Rev, you know exactly the same as the rest of us about the "2 Ian's" and their backers. i.e. next to nothing, just as it should be in all fairness.

That's the least they can do while completely ruining the football club. Even then you, like Rev, are making a massive assumption.

There is certain information available about the state of the business that they run Seneca. On the face of it the business isn't in great shape from my viewing the latest abbreviated accounts. It doesn't look like a promising start does it? Should we not view the state of their business as a fair reflection on how they might run our football club as a business?

[bob fleming]

You're quite right Sparky, we should. However I'm not sure on the in's and out's of their business, does it need to be cash rich? Are there big debts?

I honestly don't know. I've heard the guy speak on the radio and he speaks very well, he's obviously a Rovers fan. He appears to want the very best for the club. I'd be prepared to hear more from him, but as we all know, the clubs not for sale so I doubt he'll be going into great detail about how / who etc at the moment.

[RevidgeBlue]

Really Rev? Got a link? A quote? Or is that just a massive assumption? Let's face it Rev, you know exactly the same as the rest of us about the "2 Ian's" and their backers. i.e. next to nothing, just as it should be in all fairness.

That's the least they can do while completely ruining the football club. Even then you, like Rev, are making a massive assumption.

1) Bob, it seems that the Ian's are claiming they have "Investors" behind them. It follows from that that it is a reasonable assumption to make that they do not personally have the finances to run the Club does it not? They have also said if I understand correctly that they would appoint other people to run the Club on their behalf so all this stuff about "Oh we'll be ok because they've been fans for 40 years" doesn't really come into it. What we need to know is the identity, motive and ntentions and level of funding of said investors.

2) Yes, I am assuming Venky's are paying all the bills (and funding our massive losses) Without that what I say goes obviously out of the window. I am not naïve enough to think that they might not be or might tire of it at some point and leave us in the mire but at this moment in time assuming they are sticking by us and paying our way, I don't see any other realistic alternative no matter how incompetent a job they might be making of it at present.

So now we know! If Venkys sold to a 2 Ians consortium, with or without Rovers Trust involvement,you and Eddie would be disappointed about it! You've written this on the same day you've read about the pathetic goings on at the High Court over Berg's compensation!

Absolutely barking mad, both of you!

But it isn't barking mad to want to switch from owners who have been incompetent to press but can pay our bills, to well meaning owners who have no hope whatsoever of being able to meet our outgoings?

I'm sure we'd all want owners running the club to just break even.

But if the choice is between the 2 Ian's and venkys, which would you prefer? The venkys have shown themselves to be complicit in asset stripping the club and spending no money.

What's the total spent, versus total incoming now?

Clubs like Swansea , show there is a model to make modest profits and thrive in the premier league. It comes down to expert management

How do you work that out? They've spent a fortune on players in transfer fees and wages this season and by most reckonings are currently losing 2m p.m. as a result.

Rhodes apart, it has largely been money down the drain due to the incompetence of those working for them but it was still money that didn't need to be spent and wouldn't have been spent were they deliberately asset stripping.

[gumboots]

Wrong topic!

[TBTF]

1) Bob, it seems that the Ian's are claiming they have "Investors" behind them. It follows from that that it is a reasonable assumption to make that they do not personally have the finances to run the Club does it not? They have also said if I understand correctly that they would appoint other people to run the Club on their behalf so all this stuff about "Oh we'll be ok because they've been fans for 40 years" doesn't really come into it. What we need to know is the identity, motive and ntentions and level of funding of said investors.

2) Yes, I am assuming Venky's are paying all the bills (and funding our massive losses) Without that what I say goes obviously out of the window. I am not naïve enough to think that they might not be or might tire of it at some point and leave us in the mire but at this moment in time assuming they are sticking by us and paying our way, I don't see any other realistic alternative no matter how incompetent a job they might be making of it at present.

But it isn't barking mad to want to switch from owners who have been incompetent to press but can pay our bills, to well meaning owners who have no hope whatsoever of being able to meet our outgoings?

Don't get why you keep thinking the Ians are using their own or Seneca money to run the Club.I have never heard them say that .Its supposed to be them orchestrating a proper managements structure using experienced football people backed by investor cash.WTF has Seneca's own business got to do with that?? If you have some info we haven't then i bow to your knowledge Rev.

As Bob says i wouldnt think theres a hope in hell of them telling everybody who is providing the money , how much is available etc etc and certainly not until there is some clarity of whats happening inside the club.

Lets face it we are all guessing at almost every stage and at every sound bite .At least the Trust are making progress on a positive note

How do you work that out? They've spent a fortune on players in transfer fees and wages this season and by most reckonings are currently losing 2m p.m. as a result.

Rhodes apart, it has largely been money down the drain due to the incompetence of those working for them but it was still money that didn't need to be spent and wouldn't have been spent were they deliberately asset stripping.

[Baz]

A prudent player trading strategy will always be part and parcel of the budget structure of a club like Rovers. What do you think the investment in the youth program is all about? It is about producing the Duff's, Dunn's, and Jones' of the past. Investing in your youth programs in clubs like ours is not only an excellent value for money in producing quality players for your first team, but also a long term extension of you player trading strategy. The accumulated cost of running and developing the youth program since its modern inception at Rovers has been repaid in spades with just a few of the players it has produced, not only in the transfers fees it has produced, but the value players like Dunn have brought to the club through being successful on the pitch.

This was successfully combined with some excellent transfer market finds by Souness and especially Hughes during their time as manager.

There is a huge difference between selling off half your first team on annual basis, and selling one player to balance the books. As John Williams put it, Rovers has been more of a trading club since the early 90's, reinvesting in the playing squad regularly, losing money in some years and making money in others, basically going break even on player trading over time, up until 3 years ago, anyway.

I think this approach seems more prudent than risky. Risky for me would be making consistently unsustainable losses on player trading. I think the most risky thing that Rovers had done prior to Venkys ownership was the wage to turnover ratio that was very high, especially in later years. The idea was to have this as a calculated risk to ensure PL status was maintained, and making sure you had the right manager in charge to do this, working together with an integrated player trading policy to keep the books on an even keel. As long as you could maintain that status, it would work.

When you don't have the money to be a solely buying club, this is what you are forced to do to compete.

I doubt we are close to breaking even on the academy. Duff and Dunn were here before the academy too. I seem to remember it cost 5m a year to run, and thats a few years ago.

[darrenrover]

There is certain information available about the state of the business that they run Seneca. On the face of it the business isn't in great shape from my viewing the latest abbreviated accounts. It doesn't look like a promising start does it? Should we not view the state of their business as a fair reflection on how they might run our football club as a business?

Sparky, you profess to be a financial guru, so as a consequence have you duly considered tax planning, group structure arrangements etc. in your financial appraisals of Seneca?

In addition, as Seneca are involved primarily in the financial arrangements of high net worth individuals and governed by the FSA, do you not think that should give you some indication as to their viability?

I will gladly stand corrected if someone can prove me to be incorrect but they, Battersby and Currie, are one of us. They are at the pinnacle within their industry, well respected, have an unbelievable client base. First and foremost I do not believe that they would ever promise something that they could not deliver. It is not in their makeup.

It's inevitable that investors will want a return on their investment, it's ludicrously niave to think differently. What's the going rate in Britannia Building Society 2.2% pa? If investors have £50 million, a 10% return pa for example is £5 million, decidedly better than £1.1 million. Think about it, Kean, Black, Berg, Appleton plus coaches compensation, Murphy, Etuhu, Best and others salaries, would there be any change from £10 million? If the club is run properly and appropriate income streams are at least maintained but ideally improved, there is plenty of scope.

Naysayers, think again is my advice for what it's worth. I cannot for the life of me understand any negativity with regards to the Ians but we MUST stay up to even have an option.

[Baz]

Id suggest the 2 Ian's as tax planners may well have only the cash they need to run their business within it, and plenty more away from where the inland revenue can get at it.