[Archived] What will it take for fans to get angry ?

[Stuart]

Too true, CLB.

It begs the question, what would ALL Rovers fans be prepared to do - together? Is there anything?

[ABBEY]

You're wrong on the pitch invasion stuff, the few that did jump the fences against Wigan didn't get arrested and didn't get criminal records, so stop talking out of your backside.

And some got wacked with truncheons .

[Jock]

Too true, CLB.

It begs the question, what would ALL Rovers fans be prepared to do - together? Is there anything?

Bend over and take it up the sh!tter from the Raos

[Glenn]

I haven't read the majority of this thread (so if there way anything there that shouldn't, please use the report button as it may have been missed), but if it matches the discussions I've been seeing on twitter then you're probably talking about what action to take, but that's entirely the wrong way around to approach this.

The first question you should be asking is "what do you want to achieve?".

The answer is probably either Venky's to sell, or to at least listen to (and act on) advice from people who actually have the club's best interest at heart.

Now, big headline grabbing moves like protests, lock-ins, pitch invasions etc are fantastic for making people either interested in football or based in the UK aware of our plight, but the action group already did a fine job of that, so whilst it may make people feel better for doing *something*, will it actually get everyone anywhere near the aim above? Normally you might shame people into leaving, but Venky's seem to be alien to that, you might bully them into, but they are either stubborn as hell, shielded from the facts or simply don't care (otherwise the action group protests would have worked, hell the Raos out-stubborned PETA who are generally at the more extreme of protest groups). In many cases boycotting would have worked, but the it's not the just fan-spend that's so small to them as it's irrelevant, it's Rovers as a whole!

So, other tactics?. Helping them doesn't work. We tried that, The Pune 9 spelled out very precisely what would happen if their advice wasn't heeded, Bala and his advisers sat, listened, said they all knew this too and promised there was no way that was going to happen ... and it did ... exactly as we predicted. So it's not an ivory tower thing, they knew the score, they were just unwilling or unable to act on it. Likewise, probably much more at their level, the two Ian's had a discussion that lasted hours and again, they made all the right noises, but not only didn't act, they didn't follow up on it like they promised (a long string of broken promises, but the more we learn about them, the more we know this is "expected behaviour" around them). So, playing nice and helping is a none starter too.

A suggestion floated around twitter was next time they were at Ewood, ensure they couldn't leave until they'd listened to a fan delegation, and yet again, whilst this probably feels like positive action and would no doubt grab the press attention, should the fans get an audience, all they'd do is listen, nod, make whatever promises they needed to resolve the immediate situation and then never deliver on them. So assistance seemingly isn't the option (or they'd have snapped the two Ians hands off rather than sent us Shebby).

So, another tack is needed altogether. If they don't care what the fans think, don't care if they lose money, don't care if we go plummeting down the leagues, don't care they ruined their brand in Europe in ways that made Ratner look like an amateur, don't care that the press have now turned on them and don't care they've been discussed in parliament in a negative way. What DO they are about?

I can only think of one thing. How they are perceived amongst their peer group. The trip to India was a real eye opener in many ways, not least that these guys seemed revered by all classes and creeds, from the people making the pilgrimage to Lord Venkateshwara's Temple to the rich and famous that attend Bala's parties, they all see the Rao's as fantastic, likeable generous people. It was plainly obvious by the lavish hospitality they put on for Rovers (including I'll willingly admit, the Pune 9) how they are perceived in their own country by their own peer group REALLY matters them, I mean REALLY matters. So if you want to find a stick with which to beat them, then in my opinion, that is it. Every time someone they've befriended or are trying to impress says "You know the darnedest thing, I hear a bunch of guys in the UK really think you're sullying the name of Indian Business People in the UK and you have wrecked the Venky's brand there beyond recovery" it will get to them much much more than a bit of chanting, a snowball or a few hundred people doing a bit of urban rambling. In my eyes, it's peer pressure from those they actually care about (i.e. not us) that will actually embarrass them into walking away.

So, how do you do that? It's a pretty safe bet (with a couple of notable exceptions - you guys should really look at using proxies) that if you're reading this, you're not part of their peer group, nor a close enough to convince others simply through word of mouth, so that's where you have to be creative. A quick google search gives you a run down of who Bala in particular likes to mix with, Bollywood Stars, Sports Stars, Business People (especially investors) and the odd politician and finding the list of the most influential of those is pretty easy too. A little more googling then gives you the agents, PR companies and PA that represent those people. Again, a full on frontal assault isn't going to work and you're unlikely to get to talk to the target yourself, but that's not important, it's making sure that seed of doubt gets planted with them, whether they believe it or not. So my suggestion would be to pester the Agents/PR Companies/PAs representing these poeple into asking if them if they would like to back your campaign raising awareness of the damage Venky's are doing to the reputation of Indian business people in the UK. I'm certainly nobody will, but as long as the message gets to the targets and they're curious enough to ask the Raos, job done. Reputation management is a very very tricky business and an initiative like this where it can't really be denied or countered is one of the hardest things to protect against (for the Sci-Fi geeks out there, all I'll say is "Isn't she looking tired?") and once they have their peers questioning how their actions are perceived (not just a bunch of football fans on the other side of the world) then hopefully it'll be the incentive they need to get the hell out of dodge

It's simple, it's easy and hell, if you ask nicely, I'm sure somebody could even write a few letter/email templates. It also scales brilliantly, attempting to get the message out may be a bit of work, but having done once, it's not much work to rinse and repeat and do it to 1000 people. Look how easily the AG got the message out in the UK. They only reason it's not been replicated in India is nobody is familiar enough with the system out there to get in contact with key influencers. And hey, you never know, some might actually take it further and rather than just asking the Rao's about it all, they may actually understand the reputational damage the Rao's are causing over here. I mean, even if a properly prepared Indian Business tried to buy into UK football in the future, I bet the Rao's will have made it 1000 times harder achieve it (nobody at the FA will want to risk "Another Venky's").

Now some (possibly many) of you are probably thinking what a pansy-ass and pointless way of dealing with this when what we need is ACTION, but think for a second, is there actually an action that can be taken that puts us closer to the aim, or is it just something that'll make you feel better? Is the action going to contribute something to the cause or is it just going to fulfill some tribal urge to display your anger. Will handing those at the club a reason to ban "key agitators", not doubt forcibly enlisting the help of the good people left at club in doing so REALLY benefit the cause?

[darrenrover]

I haven't read the majority of this thread (so if there way anything there that shouldn't, please use the report button as it may have been missed), but if it matches the discussions I've been seeing on twitter then you're probably talking about what action to take, but that's entirely the wrong way around to approach this.

The first question you should be asking is "what do you want to achieve?".

The answer is probably either Venky's to sell, or to at least listen to (and act on) advice from people who actually have the club's best interest at heart.

Now, big headline grabbing moves like protests, lock-ins, pitch invasions etc are fantastic for making people either interested in football or based in the UK aware of our plight, but the action group already did a fine job of that, so whilst it may make people feel better for doing *something*, will it actually get everyone anywhere near the aim above? Normally you might shame people into leaving, but Venky's seem to be alien to that, you might bully them into, but they are either stubborn as hell, shielded from the facts or simply don't care (otherwise the action group protests would have worked, hell the Raos out-stubborned PETA who are generally at the more extreme of protest groups). In many cases boycotting would have worked, but the it's not the just fan-spend that's so small to them as it's irrelevant, it's Rovers as a whole!

So, other tactics?. Helping them doesn't work. We tried that, The Pune 9 spelled out very precisely what would happen if their advice wasn't heeded, Bala and his advisers sat, listened, said they all knew this too and promised there was no way that was going to happen ... and it did ... exactly as we predicted. So it's not an ivory tower thing, they knew the score, they were just unwilling or unable to act on it. Likewise, probably much more at their level, the two Ian's had a discussion that lasted hours and again, they made all the right noises, but not only didn't act, they didn't follow up on it like they promised (a long string of broken promises, but the more we learn about them, the more we know this is "expected behaviour" around them). So, playing nice and helping is a none starter too.

A suggestion floated around twitter was next time they were at Ewood, ensure they couldn't leave until they'd listened to a fan delegation, and yet again, whilst this probably feels like positive action and would no doubt grab the press attention, should the fans get an audience, all they'd do is listen, nod, make whatever promises they needed to resolve the immediate situation and then never deliver on them. So assistance seemingly isn't the option (or they'd have snapped the two Ians hands off rather than sent us Shebby).

So, another tack is needed altogether. If they don't care what the fans think, don't care if they lose money, don't care if we go plummeting down the leagues, don't care they ruined their brand in Europe in ways that made Ratner look like an amateur, don't care that the press have now turned on them and don't care they've been discussed in parliament in a negative way. What DO they are about?

I can only think of one thing. How they are perceived amongst their peer group. The trip to India was a real eye opener in many ways, not least that these guys seemed revered by all classes and creeds, from the people making the pilgrimage to Lord Venkateshwara's Temple to the rich and famous that attend Bala's parties, they all see the Rao's as fantastic, likeable generous people. It was plainly obvious by the lavish hospitality they put on for Rovers (including I'll willingly admit, the Pune 9) how they are perceived in their own country by their own peer group REALLY matters them, I mean REALLY matters. So if you want to find a stick with which to beat them, then in my opinion, that is it. Every time someone they've befriended or are trying to impress says "You know the darnedest thing, I hear a bunch of guys in the UK really think you're sullying the name of Indian Business People in the UK and you have wrecked the Venky's brand there beyond recovery" it will get to them much much more than a bit of chanting, a snowball or a few hundred people doing a bit of urban rambling. In my eyes, it's peer pressure from those they actually care about (i.e. not us) that will actually embarrass them into walking away.

So, how do you do that? It's a pretty safe bet (with a couple of notable exceptions - you guys should really look at using proxies) that if you're reading this, you're not part of their peer group, nor a close enough to convince others simply through word of mouth, so that's where you have to be creative. A quick google search gives you a run down of who Bala in particular likes to mix with, Bollywood Stars, Sports Stars, Business People (especially investors) and the odd politician and finding the list of the most influential of those is pretty easy too. A little more googling then gives you the agents, PR companies and PA that represent those people. Again, a full on frontal assault isn't going to work and you're unlikely to get to talk to the target yourself, but that's not important, it's making sure that seed of doubt gets planted with them, whether they believe it or not. So my suggestion would be to pester the Agents/PR Companies/PAs representing these poeple into asking if them if they would like to back your campaign raising awareness of the damage Venky's are doing to the reputation of Indian business people in the UK. I'm certainly nobody will, but as long as the message gets to the targets and they're curious enough to ask the Raos, job done. Reputation management is a very very tricky business and an initiative like this where it can't really be denied or countered is one of the hardest things to protect against (for the Sci-Fi geeks out there, all I'll say is "Isn't she looking tired?") and once they have their peers questioning how their actions are perceived (not just a bunch of football fans on the other side of the world) then hopefully it'll be the incentive they need to get the hell out of dodge

It's simple, it's easy and hell, if you ask nicely, I'm sure somebody could even write a few letter/email templates. It also scales brilliantly, attempting to get the message out may be a bit of work, but having done once, it's not much work to rinse and repeat and do it to 1000 people. Look how easily the AG got the message out in the UK. They only reason it's not been replicated in India is nobody is familiar enough with the system out there to get in contact with key influencers. And hey, you never know, some might actually take it further and rather than just asking the Rao's about it all, they may actually understand the reputational damage the Rao's are causing over here. I mean, even if a properly prepared Indian Business tried to buy into UK football in the future, I bet the Rao's will have made it 1000 times harder achieve it (nobody at the FA will want to risk "Another Venky's").

Now some (possibly many) of you are probably thinking what a pansy-ass and pointless way of dealing with this when what we need is ACTION, but think for a second, is there actually an action that can be taken that puts us closer to the aim, or is it just something that'll make you feel better? Is the action going to contribute something to the cause or is it just going to fulfill some tribal urge to display your anger. Will handing those at the club a reason to ban "key agitators", not doubt forcibly enlisting the help of the good people left at club in doing so REALLY benefit the cause?

Glenn a fantastic post and puts things in a sensible perspective.

Does that mean you're putting yourself forward as organiser in chief?

[blueboy3333]

If celebs and 'peers' are hanging round with the Roas it's because money is to be made. India is a big untapped market. They aren't suddenly going to turn on the Raos and start asking questions because Rovers fans aren't happy. They've had quite a lot of negative press in India as it is. The Roas and their hangers-on all live in the same bubble.

[Rover_Shaun]

Great idea Glenn. But will we have a club long enough for this to work?

Maybe a co-ordinated effort with a site showing email and social media contact links?

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

I haven't read the majority of this thread (so if there way anything there that shouldn't, please use the report button as it may have been missed), but if it matches the discussions I've been seeing on twitter then you're probably talking about what action to take, but that's entirely the wrong way around to approach this.

The first question you should be asking is "what do you want to achieve?".

The answer is probably either Venky's to sell, or to at least listen to (and act on) advice from people who actually have the club's best interest at heart.

Now, big headline grabbing moves like protests, lock-ins, pitch invasions etc are fantastic for making people either interested in football or based in the UK aware of our plight, but the action group already did a fine job of that, so whilst it may make people feel better for doing *something*, will it actually get everyone anywhere near the aim above? Normally you might shame people into leaving, but Venky's seem to be alien to that, you might bully them into, but they are either stubborn as hell, shielded from the facts or simply don't care (otherwise the action group protests would have worked, hell the Raos out-stubborned PETA who are generally at the more extreme of protest groups). In many cases boycotting would have worked, but the it's not the just fan-spend that's so small to them as it's irrelevant, it's Rovers as a whole!

So, other tactics?. Helping them doesn't work. We tried that, The Pune 9 spelled out very precisely what would happen if their advice wasn't heeded, Bala and his advisers sat, listened, said they all knew this too and promised there was no way that was going to happen ... and it did ... exactly as we predicted. So it's not an ivory tower thing, they knew the score, they were just unwilling or unable to act on it. Likewise, probably much more at their level, the two Ian's had a discussion that lasted hours and again, they made all the right noises, but not only didn't act, they didn't follow up on it like they promised (a long string of broken promises, but the more we learn about them, the more we know this is "expected behaviour" around them). So, playing nice and helping is a none starter too.

A suggestion floated around twitter was next time they were at Ewood, ensure they couldn't leave until they'd listened to a fan delegation, and yet again, whilst this probably feels like positive action and would no doubt grab the press attention, should the fans get an audience, all they'd do is listen, nod, make whatever promises they needed to resolve the immediate situation and then never deliver on them. So assistance seemingly isn't the option (or they'd have snapped the two Ians hands off rather than sent us Shebby).

So, another tack is needed altogether. If they don't care what the fans think, don't care if they lose money, don't care if we go plummeting down the leagues, don't care they ruined their brand in Europe in ways that made Ratner look like an amateur, don't care that the press have now turned on them and don't care they've been discussed in parliament in a negative way. What DO they are about?

I can only think of one thing. How they are perceived amongst their peer group. The trip to India was a real eye opener in many ways, not least that these guys seemed revered by all classes and creeds, from the people making the pilgrimage to Lord Venkateshwara's Temple to the rich and famous that attend Bala's parties, they all see the Rao's as fantastic, likeable generous people. It was plainly obvious by the lavish hospitality they put on for Rovers (including I'll willingly admit, the Pune 9) how they are perceived in their own country by their own peer group REALLY matters them, I mean REALLY matters. So if you want to find a stick with which to beat them, then in my opinion, that is it. Every time someone they've befriended or are trying to impress says "You know the darnedest thing, I hear a bunch of guys in the UK really think you're sullying the name of Indian Business People in the UK and you have wrecked the Venky's brand there beyond recovery" it will get to them much much more than a bit of chanting, a snowball or a few hundred people doing a bit of urban rambling. In my eyes, it's peer pressure from those they actually care about (i.e. not us) that will actually embarrass them into walking away.

So, how do you do that? It's a pretty safe bet (with a couple of notable exceptions - you guys should really look at using proxies) that if you're reading this, you're not part of their peer group, nor a close enough to convince others simply through word of mouth, so that's where you have to be creative. A quick google search gives you a run down of who Bala in particular likes to mix with, Bollywood Stars, Sports Stars, Business People (especially investors) and the odd politician and finding the list of the most influential of those is pretty easy too. A little more googling then gives you the agents, PR companies and PA that represent those people. Again, a full on frontal assault isn't going to work and you're unlikely to get to talk to the target yourself, but that's not important, it's making sure that seed of doubt gets planted with them, whether they believe it or not. So my suggestion would be to pester the Agents/PR Companies/PAs representing these poeple into asking if them if they would like to back your campaign raising awareness of the damage Venky's are doing to the reputation of Indian business people in the UK. I'm certainly nobody will, but as long as the message gets to the targets and they're curious enough to ask the Raos, job done. Reputation management is a very very tricky business and an initiative like this where it can't really be denied or countered is one of the hardest things to protect against (for the Sci-Fi geeks out there, all I'll say is "Isn't she looking tired?") and once they have their peers questioning how their actions are perceived (not just a bunch of football fans on the other side of the world) then hopefully it'll be the incentive they need to get the hell out of dodge

It's simple, it's easy and hell, if you ask nicely, I'm sure somebody could even write a few letter/email templates. It also scales brilliantly, attempting to get the message out may be a bit of work, but having done once, it's not much work to rinse and repeat and do it to 1000 people. Look how easily the AG got the message out in the UK. They only reason it's not been replicated in India is nobody is familiar enough with the system out there to get in contact with key influencers. And hey, you never know, some might actually take it further and rather than just asking the Rao's about it all, they may actually understand the reputational damage the Rao's are causing over here. I mean, even if a properly prepared Indian Business tried to buy into UK football in the future, I bet the Rao's will have made it 1000 times harder achieve it (nobody at the FA will want to risk "Another Venky's").

Now some (possibly many) of you are probably thinking what a pansy-ass and pointless way of dealing with this when what we need is ACTION, but think for a second, is there actually an action that can be taken that puts us closer to the aim, or is it just something that'll make you feel better? Is the action going to contribute something to the cause or is it just going to fulfill some tribal urge to display your anger. Will handing those at the club a reason to ban "key agitators", not doubt forcibly enlisting the help of the good people left at club in doing so REALLY benefit the cause?

Quite a clever bloke this guy

[Glenn]

Glenn a fantastic post and puts things in a sensible perspective.

Does that mean you're putting yourself forward as organiser in chief?

Great idea Glenn. But will we have a club long enough for this to work?

Maybe a co-ordinated effort with a site showing email and social media contact links?

As I'm sure Glen will attest, if you put yourself forward to front an idea and get designated as an organiser then you get targeted by those that don't want you succeed who feel that taking out the head will kill the entire movement.

Something like this can be purely organic, no organisation needed, no structure, no committees, it doesn't need a single website to co-ordinate everything and anyone with basic research skills and a little bit of time can get on and do it. There is no single point of failure and nearly impossible to stop once started.

(And I'm not that clever, I've just had a bit of experience of online campaigning)

[darrenrover]

As I'm sure Glen will attest, if you put yourself forward to front an idea and get designated as an organiser then you get targeted by those that don't want you succeed who feel that taking out the head will kill the entire movement.

Something like this can be purely organic, no organisation needed, no structure, no committees, it doesn't need a single website to co-ordinate everything and anyone with basic research skills and a little bit of time can get on and do it. There is no single point of failure and nearly impossible to stop once started.

(And I'm not that clever, I've just had a bit of experience of online campaigning)

Agreed and point taken.......

[glen9mullan]

I haven't read the majority of this thread (so if there way anything there that shouldn't, please use the report button as it may have been missed), but if it matches the discussions I've been seeing on twitter then you're probably talking about what action to take, but that's entirely the wrong way around to approach this.

The first question you should be asking is "what do you want to achieve?".

The answer is probably either Venky's to sell, or to at least listen to (and act on) advice from people who actually have the club's best interest at heart.

Now, big headline grabbing moves like protests, lock-ins, pitch invasions etc are fantastic for making people either interested in football or based in the UK aware of our plight, but the action group already did a fine job of that, so whilst it may make people feel better for doing *something*, will it actually get everyone anywhere near the aim above? Normally you might shame people into leaving, but Venky's seem to be alien to that, you might bully them into, but they are either stubborn as hell, shielded from the facts or simply don't care (otherwise the action group protests would have worked, hell the Raos out-stubborned PETA who are generally at the more extreme of protest groups). In many cases boycotting would have worked, but the it's not the just fan-spend that's so small to them as it's irrelevant, it's Rovers as a whole!

So, other tactics?. Helping them doesn't work. We tried that, The Pune 9 spelled out very precisely what would happen if their advice wasn't heeded, Bala and his advisers sat, listened, said they all knew this too and promised there was no way that was going to happen ... and it did ... exactly as we predicted. So it's not an ivory tower thing, they knew the score, they were just unwilling or unable to act on it. Likewise, probably much more at their level, the two Ian's had a discussion that lasted hours and again, they made all the right noises, but not only didn't act, they didn't follow up on it like they promised (a long string of broken promises, but the more we learn about them, the more we know this is "expected behaviour" around them). So, playing nice and helping is a none starter too.

A suggestion floated around twitter was next time they were at Ewood, ensure they couldn't leave until they'd listened to a fan delegation, and yet again, whilst this probably feels like positive action and would no doubt grab the press attention, should the fans get an audience, all they'd do is listen, nod, make whatever promises they needed to resolve the immediate situation and then never deliver on them. So assistance seemingly isn't the option (or they'd have snapped the two Ians hands off rather than sent us Shebby).

So, another tack is needed altogether. If they don't care what the fans think, don't care if they lose money, don't care if we go plummeting down the leagues, don't care they ruined their brand in Europe in ways that made Ratner look like an amateur, don't care that the press have now turned on them and don't care they've been discussed in parliament in a negative way. What DO they are about?

I can only think of one thing. How they are perceived amongst their peer group. The trip to India was a real eye opener in many ways, not least that these guys seemed revered by all classes and creeds, from the people making the pilgrimage to Lord Venkateshwara's Temple to the rich and famous that attend Bala's parties, they all see the Rao's as fantastic, likeable generous people. It was plainly obvious by the lavish hospitality they put on for Rovers (including I'll willingly admit, the Pune 9) how they are perceived in their own country by their own peer group REALLY matters them, I mean REALLY matters. So if you want to find a stick with which to beat them, then in my opinion, that is it. Every time someone they've befriended or are trying to impress says "You know the darnedest thing, I hear a bunch of guys in the UK really think you're sullying the name of Indian Business People in the UK and you have wrecked the Venky's brand there beyond recovery" it will get to them much much more than a bit of chanting, a snowball or a few hundred people doing a bit of urban rambling. In my eyes, it's peer pressure from those they actually care about (i.e. not us) that will actually embarrass them into walking away.

So, how do you do that? It's a pretty safe bet (with a couple of notable exceptions - you guys should really look at using proxies) that if you're reading this, you're not part of their peer group, nor a close enough to convince others simply through word of mouth, so that's where you have to be creative. A quick google search gives you a run down of who Bala in particular likes to mix with, Bollywood Stars, Sports Stars, Business People (especially investors) and the odd politician and finding the list of the most influential of those is pretty easy too. A little more googling then gives you the agents, PR companies and PA that represent those people. Again, a full on frontal assault isn't going to work and you're unlikely to get to talk to the target yourself, but that's not important, it's making sure that seed of doubt gets planted with them, whether they believe it or not. So my suggestion would be to pester the Agents/PR Companies/PAs representing these poeple into asking if them if they would like to back your campaign raising awareness of the damage Venky's are doing to the reputation of Indian business people in the UK. I'm certainly nobody will, but as long as the message gets to the targets and they're curious enough to ask the Raos, job done. Reputation management is a very very tricky business and an initiative like this where it can't really be denied or countered is one of the hardest things to protect against (for the Sci-Fi geeks out there, all I'll say is "Isn't she looking tired?") and once they have their peers questioning how their actions are perceived (not just a bunch of football fans on the other side of the world) then hopefully it'll be the incentive they need to get the hell out of dodge

It's simple, it's easy and hell, if you ask nicely, I'm sure somebody could even write a few letter/email templates. It also scales brilliantly, attempting to get the message out may be a bit of work, but having done once, it's not much work to rinse and repeat and do it to 1000 people. Look how easily the AG got the message out in the UK. They only reason it's not been replicated in India is nobody is familiar enough with the system out there to get in contact with key influencers. And hey, you never know, some might actually take it further and rather than just asking the Rao's about it all, they may actually understand the reputational damage the Rao's are causing over here. I mean, even if a properly prepared Indian Business tried to buy into UK football in the future, I bet the Rao's will have made it 1000 times harder achieve it (nobody at the FA will want to risk "Another Venky's").

Now some (possibly many) of you are probably thinking what a pansy-ass and pointless way of dealing with this when what we need is ACTION, but think for a second, is there actually an action that can be taken that puts us closer to the aim, or is it just something that'll make you feel better? Is the action going to contribute something to the cause or is it just going to fulfill some tribal urge to display your anger. Will handing those at the club a reason to ban "key agitators", not doubt forcibly enlisting the help of the good people left at club in doing so REALLY benefit the cause?

Got to say , this is 100% bang on the money and should be pinned .

It could not be worded any better and shows exactly the only potential weakness in the venkys empire .

Football falls under the hobby category and is not life and depth ,

However venkys through charities , soup kitchens and significant aid are looked upon in India as people who care.

Glenn is completely right , at present too much emphasis has been put on the football , we are basically still swimming in the fish tank rather than swimming into deeper waters .

125 plus companies venkys have , and links to people who don't care two jots about football .

To the outside world , to those who have never been the UK , they probably think we are the animals and unreasonable , because everything is being done on our doorstep .

Reputations can take years to build but just weeks to kill . Venkys never had a reputation in football so they dnt have one to protect on that front , but on other fronts they certainly do need to protect it

[Ewood Spark]

I haven't read the majority of this thread (so if there way anything there that shouldn't, please use the report button as it may have been missed), but if it matches the discussions I've been seeing on twitter then you're probably talking about what action to take, but that's entirely the wrong way around to approach this.

The first question you should be asking is "what do you want to achieve?".

The answer is probably either Venky's to sell, or to at least listen to (and act on) advice from people who actually have the club's best interest at heart.

Now, big headline grabbing moves like protests, lock-ins, pitch invasions etc are fantastic for making people either interested in football or based in the UK aware of our plight, but the action group already did a fine job of that, so whilst it may make people feel better for doing *something*, will it actually get everyone anywhere near the aim above? Normally you might shame people into leaving, but Venky's seem to be alien to that, you might bully them into, but they are either stubborn as hell, shielded from the facts or simply don't care (otherwise the action group protests would have worked, hell the Raos out-stubborned PETA who are generally at the more extreme of protest groups). In many cases boycotting would have worked, but the it's not the just fan-spend that's so small to them as it's irrelevant, it's Rovers as a whole!

So, other tactics?. Helping them doesn't work. We tried that, The Pune 9 spelled out very precisely what would happen if their advice wasn't heeded, Bala and his advisers sat, listened, said they all knew this too and promised there was no way that was going to happen ... and it did ... exactly as we predicted. So it's not an ivory tower thing, they knew the score, they were just unwilling or unable to act on it. Likewise, probably much more at their level, the two Ian's had a discussion that lasted hours and again, they made all the right noises, but not only didn't act, they didn't follow up on it like they promised (a long string of broken promises, but the more we learn about them, the more we know this is "expected behaviour" around them). So, playing nice and helping is a none starter too.

A suggestion floated around twitter was next time they were at Ewood, ensure they couldn't leave until they'd listened to a fan delegation, and yet again, whilst this probably feels like positive action and would no doubt grab the press attention, should the fans get an audience, all they'd do is listen, nod, make whatever promises they needed to resolve the immediate situation and then never deliver on them. So assistance seemingly isn't the option (or they'd have snapped the two Ians hands off rather than sent us Shebby).

So, another tack is needed altogether. If they don't care what the fans think, don't care if they lose money, don't care if we go plummeting down the leagues, don't care they ruined their brand in Europe in ways that made Ratner look like an amateur, don't care that the press have now turned on them and don't care they've been discussed in parliament in a negative way. What DO they are about?

I can only think of one thing. How they are perceived amongst their peer group. The trip to India was a real eye opener in many ways, not least that these guys seemed revered by all classes and creeds, from the people making the pilgrimage to Lord Venkateshwara's Temple to the rich and famous that attend Bala's parties, they all see the Rao's as fantastic, likeable generous people. It was plainly obvious by the lavish hospitality they put on for Rovers (including I'll willingly admit, the Pune 9) how they are perceived in their own country by their own peer group REALLY matters them, I mean REALLY matters. So if you want to find a stick with which to beat them, then in my opinion, that is it. Every time someone they've befriended or are trying to impress says "You know the darnedest thing, I hear a bunch of guys in the UK really think you're sullying the name of Indian Business People in the UK and you have wrecked the Venky's brand there beyond recovery" it will get to them much much more than a bit of chanting, a snowball or a few hundred people doing a bit of urban rambling. In my eyes, it's peer pressure from those they actually care about (i.e. not us) that will actually embarrass them into walking away.

So, how do you do that? It's a pretty safe bet (with a couple of notable exceptions - you guys should really look at using proxies) that if you're reading this, you're not part of their peer group, nor a close enough to convince others simply through word of mouth, so that's where you have to be creative. A quick google search gives you a run down of who Bala in particular likes to mix with, Bollywood Stars, Sports Stars, Business People (especially investors) and the odd politician and finding the list of the most influential of those is pretty easy too. A little more googling then gives you the agents, PR companies and PA that represent those people. Again, a full on frontal assault isn't going to work and you're unlikely to get to talk to the target yourself, but that's not important, it's making sure that seed of doubt gets planted with them, whether they believe it or not. So my suggestion would be to pester the Agents/PR Companies/PAs representing these poeple into asking if them if they would like to back your campaign raising awareness of the damage Venky's are doing to the reputation of Indian business people in the UK. I'm certainly nobody will, but as long as the message gets to the targets and they're curious enough to ask the Raos, job done. Reputation management is a very very tricky business and an initiative like this where it can't really be denied or countered is one of the hardest things to protect against (for the Sci-Fi geeks out there, all I'll say is "Isn't she looking tired?") and once they have their peers questioning how their actions are perceived (not just a bunch of football fans on the other side of the world) then hopefully it'll be the incentive they need to get the hell out of dodge

It's simple, it's easy and hell, if you ask nicely, I'm sure somebody could even write a few letter/email templates. It also scales brilliantly, attempting to get the message out may be a bit of work, but having done once, it's not much work to rinse and repeat and do it to 1000 people. Look how easily the AG got the message out in the UK. They only reason it's not been replicated in India is nobody is familiar enough with the system out there to get in contact with key influencers. And hey, you never know, some might actually take it further and rather than just asking the Rao's about it all, they may actually understand the reputational damage the Rao's are causing over here. I mean, even if a properly prepared Indian Business tried to buy into UK football in the future, I bet the Rao's will have made it 1000 times harder achieve it (nobody at the FA will want to risk "Another Venky's").

Now some (possibly many) of you are probably thinking what a pansy-ass and pointless way of dealing with this when what we need is ACTION, but think for a second, is there actually an action that can be taken that puts us closer to the aim, or is it just something that'll make you feel better? Is the action going to contribute something to the cause or is it just going to fulfill some tribal urge to display your anger. Will handing those at the club a reason to ban "key agitators", not doubt forcibly enlisting the help of the good people left at club in doing so REALLY benefit the cause?

At last .... there are signs of intelligent life on this board!

[DE.]

I haven't read the majority of this thread (so if there way anything there that shouldn't, please use the report button as it may have been missed), but if it matches the discussions I've been seeing on twitter then you're probably talking about what action to take, but that's entirely the wrong way around to approach this.

The first question you should be asking is "what do you want to achieve?".

The answer is probably either Venky's to sell, or to at least listen to (and act on) advice from people who actually have the club's best interest at heart.

Now, big headline grabbing moves like protests, lock-ins, pitch invasions etc are fantastic for making people either interested in football or based in the UK aware of our plight, but the action group already did a fine job of that, so whilst it may make people feel better for doing *something*, will it actually get everyone anywhere near the aim above? Normally you might shame people into leaving, but Venky's seem to be alien to that, you might bully them into, but they are either stubborn as hell, shielded from the facts or simply don't care (otherwise the action group protests would have worked, hell the Raos out-stubborned PETA who are generally at the more extreme of protest groups). In many cases boycotting would have worked, but the it's not the just fan-spend that's so small to them as it's irrelevant, it's Rovers as a whole!

So, other tactics?. Helping them doesn't work. We tried that, The Pune 9 spelled out very precisely what would happen if their advice wasn't heeded, Bala and his advisers sat, listened, said they all knew this too and promised there was no way that was going to happen ... and it did ... exactly as we predicted. So it's not an ivory tower thing, they knew the score, they were just unwilling or unable to act on it. Likewise, probably much more at their level, the two Ian's had a discussion that lasted hours and again, they made all the right noises, but not only didn't act, they didn't follow up on it like they promised (a long string of broken promises, but the more we learn about them, the more we know this is "expected behaviour" around them). So, playing nice and helping is a none starter too.

A suggestion floated around twitter was next time they were at Ewood, ensure they couldn't leave until they'd listened to a fan delegation, and yet again, whilst this probably feels like positive action and would no doubt grab the press attention, should the fans get an audience, all they'd do is listen, nod, make whatever promises they needed to resolve the immediate situation and then never deliver on them. So assistance seemingly isn't the option (or they'd have snapped the two Ians hands off rather than sent us Shebby).

So, another tack is needed altogether. If they don't care what the fans think, don't care if they lose money, don't care if we go plummeting down the leagues, don't care they ruined their brand in Europe in ways that made Ratner look like an amateur, don't care that the press have now turned on them and don't care they've been discussed in parliament in a negative way. What DO they are about?

I can only think of one thing. How they are perceived amongst their peer group. The trip to India was a real eye opener in many ways, not least that these guys seemed revered by all classes and creeds, from the people making the pilgrimage to Lord Venkateshwara's Temple to the rich and famous that attend Bala's parties, they all see the Rao's as fantastic, likeable generous people. It was plainly obvious by the lavish hospitality they put on for Rovers (including I'll willingly admit, the Pune 9) how they are perceived in their own country by their own peer group REALLY matters them, I mean REALLY matters. So if you want to find a stick with which to beat them, then in my opinion, that is it. Every time someone they've befriended or are trying to impress says "You know the darnedest thing, I hear a bunch of guys in the UK really think you're sullying the name of Indian Business People in the UK and you have wrecked the Venky's brand there beyond recovery" it will get to them much much more than a bit of chanting, a snowball or a few hundred people doing a bit of urban rambling. In my eyes, it's peer pressure from those they actually care about (i.e. not us) that will actually embarrass them into walking away.

So, how do you do that? It's a pretty safe bet (with a couple of notable exceptions - you guys should really look at using proxies) that if you're reading this, you're not part of their peer group, nor a close enough to convince others simply through word of mouth, so that's where you have to be creative. A quick google search gives you a run down of who Bala in particular likes to mix with, Bollywood Stars, Sports Stars, Business People (especially investors) and the odd politician and finding the list of the most influential of those is pretty easy too. A little more googling then gives you the agents, PR companies and PA that represent those people. Again, a full on frontal assault isn't going to work and you're unlikely to get to talk to the target yourself, but that's not important, it's making sure that seed of doubt gets planted with them, whether they believe it or not. So my suggestion would be to pester the Agents/PR Companies/PAs representing these poeple into asking if them if they would like to back your campaign raising awareness of the damage Venky's are doing to the reputation of Indian business people in the UK. I'm certainly nobody will, but as long as the message gets to the targets and they're curious enough to ask the Raos, job done. Reputation management is a very very tricky business and an initiative like this where it can't really be denied or countered is one of the hardest things to protect against (for the Sci-Fi geeks out there, all I'll say is "Isn't she looking tired?") and once they have their peers questioning how their actions are perceived (not just a bunch of football fans on the other side of the world) then hopefully it'll be the incentive they need to get the hell out of dodge

It's simple, it's easy and hell, if you ask nicely, I'm sure somebody could even write a few letter/email templates. It also scales brilliantly, attempting to get the message out may be a bit of work, but having done once, it's not much work to rinse and repeat and do it to 1000 people. Look how easily the AG got the message out in the UK. They only reason it's not been replicated in India is nobody is familiar enough with the system out there to get in contact with key influencers. And hey, you never know, some might actually take it further and rather than just asking the Rao's about it all, they may actually understand the reputational damage the Rao's are causing over here. I mean, even if a properly prepared Indian Business tried to buy into UK football in the future, I bet the Rao's will have made it 1000 times harder achieve it (nobody at the FA will want to risk "Another Venky's").

Now some (possibly many) of you are probably thinking what a pansy-ass and pointless way of dealing with this when what we need is ACTION, but think for a second, is there actually an action that can be taken that puts us closer to the aim, or is it just something that'll make you feel better? Is the action going to contribute something to the cause or is it just going to fulfill some tribal urge to display your anger. Will handing those at the club a reason to ban "key agitators", not doubt forcibly enlisting the help of the good people left at club in doing so REALLY benefit the cause?

A superb post Glenn. Did the Trust consult you before spending a month composing their letter to Mrs Desai? If not it's a shame, as it might have saved them some time.

[47er]

At last .... there are signs of intelligent life on this board!

Comedy Gold!

[PAFELL]

I haven't read the majority of this thread (so if there way anything there that shouldn't, please use the report button as it may have been missed), but if it matches the discussions I've been seeing on twitter then you're probably talking about what action to take, but that's entirely the wrong way around to approach this.

The first question you should be asking is "what do you want to achieve?".

The answer is probably either Venky's to sell, or to at least listen to (and act on) advice from people who actually have the club's best interest at heart.

Now, big headline grabbing moves like protests, lock-ins, pitch invasions etc are fantastic for making people either interested in football or based in the UK aware of our plight, but the action group already did a fine job of that, so whilst it may make people feel better for doing *something*, will it actually get everyone anywhere near the aim above? Normally you might shame people into leaving, but Venky's seem to be alien to that, you might bully them into, but they are either stubborn as hell, shielded from the facts or simply don't care (otherwise the action group protests would have worked, hell the Raos out-stubborned PETA who are generally at the more extreme of protest groups). In many cases boycotting would have worked, but the it's not the just fan-spend that's so small to them as it's irrelevant, it's Rovers as a whole!

So, other tactics?. Helping them doesn't work. We tried that, The Pune 9 spelled out very precisely what would happen if their advice wasn't heeded, Bala and his advisers sat, listened, said they all knew this too and promised there was no way that was going to happen ... and it did ... exactly as we predicted. So it's not an ivory tower thing, they knew the score, they were just unwilling or unable to act on it. Likewise, probably much more at their level, the two Ian's had a discussion that lasted hours and again, they made all the right noises, but not only didn't act, they didn't follow up on it like they promised (a long string of broken promises, but the more we learn about them, the more we know this is "expected behaviour" around them). So, playing nice and helping is a none starter too.

A suggestion floated around twitter was next time they were at Ewood, ensure they couldn't leave until they'd listened to a fan delegation, and yet again, whilst this probably feels like positive action and would no doubt grab the press attention, should the fans get an audience, all they'd do is listen, nod, make whatever promises they needed to resolve the immediate situation and then never deliver on them. So assistance seemingly isn't the option (or they'd have snapped the two Ians hands off rather than sent us Shebby).

So, another tack is needed altogether. If they don't care what the fans think, don't care if they lose money, don't care if we go plummeting down the leagues, don't care they ruined their brand in Europe in ways that made Ratner look like an amateur, don't care that the press have now turned on them and don't care they've been discussed in parliament in a negative way. What DO they are about?

I can only think of one thing. How they are perceived amongst their peer group. The trip to India was a real eye opener in many ways, not least that these guys seemed revered by all classes and creeds, from the people making the pilgrimage to Lord Venkateshwara's Temple to the rich and famous that attend Bala's parties, they all see the Rao's as fantastic, likeable generous people. It was plainly obvious by the lavish hospitality they put on for Rovers (including I'll willingly admit, the Pune 9) how they are perceived in their own country by their own peer group REALLY matters them, I mean REALLY matters. So if you want to find a stick with which to beat them, then in my opinion, that is it. Every time someone they've befriended or are trying to impress says "You know the darnedest thing, I hear a bunch of guys in the UK really think you're sullying the name of Indian Business People in the UK and you have wrecked the Venky's brand there beyond recovery" it will get to them much much more than a bit of chanting, a snowball or a few hundred people doing a bit of urban rambling. In my eyes, it's peer pressure from those they actually care about (i.e. not us) that will actually embarrass them into walking away.

So, how do you do that? It's a pretty safe bet (with a couple of notable exceptions - you guys should really look at using proxies) that if you're reading this, you're not part of their peer group, nor a close enough to convince others simply through word of mouth, so that's where you have to be creative. A quick google search gives you a run down of who Bala in particular likes to mix with, Bollywood Stars, Sports Stars, Business People (especially investors) and the odd politician and finding the list of the most influential of those is pretty easy too. A little more googling then gives you the agents, PR companies and PA that represent those people. Again, a full on frontal assault isn't going to work and you're unlikely to get to talk to the target yourself, but that's not important, it's making sure that seed of doubt gets planted with them, whether they believe it or not. So my suggestion would be to pester the Agents/PR Companies/PAs representing these poeple into asking if them if they would like to back your campaign raising awareness of the damage Venky's are doing to the reputation of Indian business people in the UK. I'm certainly nobody will, but as long as the message gets to the targets and they're curious enough to ask the Raos, job done. Reputation management is a very very tricky business and an initiative like this where it can't really be denied or countered is one of the hardest things to protect against (for the Sci-Fi geeks out there, all I'll say is "Isn't she looking tired?") and once they have their peers questioning how their actions are perceived (not just a bunch of football fans on the other side of the world) then hopefully it'll be the incentive they need to get the hell out of dodge

It's simple, it's easy and hell, if you ask nicely, I'm sure somebody could even write a few letter/email templates. It also scales brilliantly, attempting to get the message out may be a bit of work, but having done once, it's not much work to rinse and repeat and do it to 1000 people. Look how easily the AG got the message out in the UK. They only reason it's not been replicated in India is nobody is familiar enough with the system out there to get in contact with key influencers. And hey, you never know, some might actually take it further and rather than just asking the Rao's about it all, they may actually understand the reputational damage the Rao's are causing over here. I mean, even if a properly prepared Indian Business tried to buy into UK football in the future, I bet the Rao's will have made it 1000 times harder achieve it (nobody at the FA will want to risk "Another Venky's").

Now some (possibly many) of you are probably thinking what a pansy-ass and pointless way of dealing with this when what we need is ACTION, but think for a second, is there actually an action that can be taken that puts us closer to the aim, or is it just something that'll make you feel better? Is the action going to contribute something to the cause or is it just going to fulfill some tribal urge to display your anger. Will handing those at the club a reason to ban "key agitators", not doubt forcibly enlisting the help of the good people left at club in doing so REALLY benefit the cause?

I think you have hit the nail on the head. I have believed for awhile, it is in India, on their own doorstep, amongst their, where things need to be done. Hit them where it hurts them.

Got to say , this is 100% bang on the money and should be pinned .

It could not be worded any better and shows exactly the only potential weakness in the venkys empire .

Football falls under the hobby category and is not life and depth ,

However venkys through charities , soup kitchens and significant aid are looked upon in India as people who care.

Glenn is completely right , at present too much emphasis has been put on the football , we are basically still swimming in the fish tank rather than swimming into deeper waters .

125 plus companies venkys have , and links to people who don't care two jots about football .

To the outside world , to those who have never been the UK , they probably think we are the animals and unreasonable , because everything is being done on our doorstep .

Reputations can take years to build but just weeks to kill . Venkys never had a reputation in football so they dnt have one to protect on that front , but on other fronts they certainly do need to protect it

Correct and bang on.

[Tom]

Shame that the big poultry event in India isn't until late November

[Gav]

Glenn has said nothing in that entire post than what wasn’t said earlier in the thread regarding the 'Spirit of Shankly' group.

Its a tried and tested formula that works, Hicks even mentioned the action of the Shankly group was one of the reasons they decided to sell in the end, damaging interests and brands in the states was the final straw.

But its all @#/? and wind at this point, with 2 fans groups that can’t even agree if its night or day we’re not going to get right far.

[majorstyre]

i think that this has the makings of a good plan...

but....

to get a concentrated "attack", it would be better if we had a list of "targets", and how susceptible they are to the message

can anybody get a list together, and perhaps a ranking of importance??

[DE.]

Glenn has said nothing in that entire post than what wasn’t said earlier in the thread regarding the 'Spirit of Shankly' group.

Its a tried and tested formula that works, Hicks even mentioned the action of the Shankly group was one of the reasons they decided to sell in the end, damaging interests and brands in the states was the final straw.

But its all @#/? and wind at this point, with 2 fans groups that can’t even agree if its night or day we’re not going to get right far.

Didn't RBS essentially force out Hicks & Gillett? They had a lot of debt, the bank called it in, and when they couldn't provide funds NESV stepped in to pick up the pieces. I could be ignorant but what part of that process has anything to do with the fans? Did they put pressure on the bank? (genuine question btw, I don't know what happened).

[Gav]

Didn't RBS essentially force out Hicks & Gillett? They had a lot of debt, the bank called it in, and when they couldn't provide funds NESV stepped in to pick up the pieces. I could be ignorant but what part of that process has anything to do with the fans? Did they put pressure on the bank? (genuine question btw, I don't know what happened).

Don't know that much myself to be honest, but the person who I've spoken to recently is a CEO and a well respected member of the group, so I tend to take what he says as the truth as he's never let me down before.

Google 'spirt of shankly and hicks' comes up with loads of stuff, some of it really inspiring.

[Majiball]

Didn't RBS essentially force out Hicks & Gillett? They had a lot of debt, the bank called it in, and when they couldn't provide funds NESV stepped in to pick up the pieces. I could be ignorant but what part of that process has anything to do with the fans? Did they put pressure on the bank? (genuine question btw, I don't know what happened).

Were NESV at the table wanting to buy Liverpool before or after the flag burning?

[glen9mullan]

Don't know that much myself to be honest, but the person who I've spoken to recently is a CEO and a well respected member of the group, so I tend to take what he says as the truth as he's never let me down before.

Google 'spirt of shankly and hicks' comes up with loads of stuff, some of it really inspiring.

We have met with the Spirit of Shankley a number of times, both in Liverpool and in Blackburn.

They told us not to get disheartened about anything which we may try or which we may feel was not a roaring success. They claimed every protest was a good protest and they had protest that only 2 or 3 people turned up. They made it clear their key was the wave of attacks, even if at times it was like banging their heads against the wall.

They staked out everywhere

Everytime they were due in the country they hounded them at the Airport, the hotels they stopped in, every venue they visited, every business or acquaintance they came into contact with.

The Spirit of Shankley drew massive opposition from a large section of the Liverpool supporter base, but never wilted or indeed gave in to that pressure. In the end through persistence they were toppled as their position at ;Liverpool became untenable.

Spirit of Shankley also went down the authporities routes but hit a brick wall, whilst organisations like supporters direct also offered no help or guidance during that period of time.

Since the departure of Hicks and Gillette, the Spirit of Shankley has become a supporters direct backed organisation, however had they gone down the government backed route originally then their hands would of been completely tied on what they could or could not do.

So in short their persistence outweighed the resistance and they had to do it alone as supporters or risk it being a lukewarm objection

[RevidgeBlue]

The post from Glenn (moderator) is arguably the best post I've seen on this m/b. Clear concise advice and a sensible plan of action.

A very refreshing change from Jack Straw, Kate Hollern, the two Ian's Wayne Wild Brag, and Uncle Tom Cobley and all whinging that no-one will speak to them.

Whilst not wishing to decry the efforts or motives of SOS, my understanding was that Hicks and Gilette were forced out of Liverpool by the RBS being about to foreclose on the Club and the other directors managed to force them out.

[PAFELL]

Glenn has said nothing in that entire post than what wasn’t said earlier in the thread regarding the 'Spirit of Shankly' group.

Its a tried and tested formula that works, Hicks even mentioned the action of the Shankly group was one of the reasons they decided to sell in the end, damaging interests and brands in the states was the final straw.

But its all @#/? and wind at this point, with 2 fans groups that can’t even agree if its night or day we’re not going to get right far.

I think you will find that the board was in support of a takeover - court / legal stuff was involved. Hicks etc were not willing sellers. So a completely different situation.

[PAFELL]

The post from Glenn (moderator) is arguably the best post I've seen on this m/b. Clear concise advice and a sensible plan of action.

A very refreshing change from Jack Straw, Kate Hollern, the two Ian's Wayne Wild Brag, and Uncle Tom Cobley and all whinging that no-one will speak to them.

Whilst not wishing to decry the efforts or motives of SOS, my understanding was that Hicks and Gilette were forced out of Liverpool by the RBS being about to foreclose on the Club and the other directors managed to force them out.

Which is a completely different situation to rovers - sadly.