[Archived] North Korea

[adopted scouser]

"He's fat, he's vile, he sings Gangnam style"

[koi]

Got to say there is a small part of me that would like to see them launch a strike against the US just to see what happens.

[Jeru tha Damaja]

There is no political resistance in North Korea. Not before, and not now.

UN sanctions are not starving North Korea. The lack of arable land is doing that. China has been keeping the people alive for decades.

we are not building the case for the North Korea's threat - they have been doing that themselves in order to survive.

Finally there is no way the Americans would take the first shot. If they did, the North would certainly have time to attack Seoul, with a population of 25 million.

There is always dissent, the question is whether it's safe for them to be visible. If there was no opposition then there'd be no need for political prison camps.

The country was doing alright, despite the reduction in food aid, until 2009, at which point they became unable to trade with anyone apart from China. In 2010 there as an attempt to sell the uranium from Yongbyon to the US in exchange for food aid, but both Washington and Seoul refused to even discuss the offer. Once they found themselves unable to trade or use their military leverage peacefully, what would you expect them to do?

You're telling me that Cameron isn't fear mongering when he says we need to renew Trident because of the threat of North Korea? The chances of Britain being in range of their missiles are roughly the same as the chances of us finding Saddam's WMDs under the swimming pool behind America's fortress embassy in Baghdad. In fact, does it not sound strikingly similar to the "45 minute" claim?

[DE.]

There is always dissent, the question is whether it's safe for them to be visible. If there was no opposition then there'd be no need for political prison camps.

The country was doing alright, despite the reduction in food aid, until 2009, at which point they became unable to trade with anyone apart from China. In 2010 there as an attempt to sell the uranium from Yongbyon to the US in exchange for food aid, but both Washington and Seoul refused to even discuss the offer. Once they found themselves unable to trade or use their military leverage peacefully, what would you expect them to do?

You're telling me that Cameron isn't fear mongering when he says we need to renew Trident because of the threat of North Korea? The chances of Britain being in range of their missiles are roughly the same as the chances of us finding Saddam's WMDs under the swimming pool behind America's fortress embassy in Baghdad. In fact, does it not sound strikingly similar to the "45 minute" claim?

Sorry, but you have no idea what you are talking about. North Korea was not "doing alright" until 2009. Forgetting the constant humans rights abuses, the economy in North Korea has been in sharp decline since the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991. The country never altered its old communist economic system and as a result they continued to stagnate. Factories and outlets closed across the country leaving their only functioning industries as tourism and the military. By the early 2000's tens of millions of people were starving and living in poverty. The country was and is wholly reliant on international aid from China, the US, Japan, etc to feed its malnourished population. Outside of the capital there's hardly any electricity or heating and the quality of life is horrific, and has been for well over a decade.

And that's "doing alright" ? In that case you must think Venky's are doing a bloody brilliant job at Rovers.

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

Got to say there is a small part of me that would like to see them launch a strike against the US just to see what happens.

For the lives of possibly Millions of innocent people in that country,I couldn't agree less.

[koi]

Of course I don't want it to happen but I do wonder how far they'd take it.

[Audax]

Got to say there is a small part of me that would like to see them launch a strike against the US just to see what happens.

There have been quite a few jokes going around in the US, "we might thank them for hitting California" and the like that though I wouldn't say it, I can't judge people myself.

Back to the posts, I guess the North Koreans are protesting embargoes against them, embargoes in place over their nuclear power development. Also hearing that perhaps the fat boy's position in power is a bit precarious.

Look at this Buffalo Bill, American football player, he says "N. Korea should nuke where the New England Patriots are"..

http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/2013/04/04/bills-wr-stevie-johnson-suggests-on-twitter-that-north-korea-bomb-foxboro-mass/

Bad taste? Or people being silly?

[ultrablue]

The country was doing alright, despite the reduction in food aid, until 2009, at which point they became unable to trade with anyone apart from China. In 2010 there as an attempt to sell the uranium from Yongbyon to the US in exchange for food aid, but both Washington and Seoul refused to even discuss the offer. Once they found themselves unable to trade or use their military leverage peacefully, what would you expect them to do?

Doing alright? Where on earth did you get this idea?

After the collapse of the Soviet Republic in 91, the death of Kim Il Sung in 1994, and a whole series of natural disaster, NK could not feed itself. 5 years of extensive famine known as the Arduous March began, in which some estimate over 3 million people starved to death. They have relied on food aid ever since, garnered from their ability to control military tension on the peninsula. This is their only source of political legitimacy at home. The problem seems to be Kim Jong Un doesn't have the diplomatic skills to control tension that his father had.

You mention the Yongbyon reactor. That is a great example of this escalation and climb down tactic of Kim Jong Il. I was here in 2008 when they demolished the main cooling tower at Yongbyon. I was also here a year later when they carried out their second nuclear test. I'm not sure where you heard the North attempted to "sell" uranium to the US or to the South. Even if there was an offer that fell on deaf ears, it was only a drop in the ocean of back and forth, rather than a game changing event. The North has certainly never said it would give up its nuclear ambitions. It is the only thing that is keeping them from imploding.

[jim mk2]

Political and military posturing on a grand scale by a rogue country. This is not Cuba 1962. It will all blow over in weeks.

[ultrablue]

repeat post

[DE.]

Don't think we're that interested in North Korea tbh.

[Guest Norbert]

[Audax]

Heard this fellow talk about how things got bad in Asia after the Russo-Japanese war, 1904-05. It's a complex story.

Following that, Roosevelt actively encouraged Japan to
emulate America’s recent imperial expansion, though the results
would prove disastrous in the long-term:

In a secret presidential cable to Tokyo, in July 1905,
Roosevelt approved the Japanese annexation of Korea and agreed
to an “understanding or alliance” among Japan, the United
States and Britain “as if the United States were under treaty
obligations.” The “as if” was key: Congress was much less
interested in North Asia than Roosevelt was, so he came to his
agreement with Japan in secret, an unconstitutional act.

To signal his commitment to Tokyo, Roosevelt cut off relations
with Korea, turned the American legation in Seoul over to the
Japanese military and deleted the word “Korea” from the State
Department’s Record of Foreign Relations and placed it under
the heading of “Japan.”

http://reason.com/blog/2009/12/07/teddy-roosevelt-and-the-road-t

http://reason.com/blog/2009/12/07/teddy-roosevelt-and-the-road-t

http://www.russojapanesewar.com/TR.html

This is one author and this probably is not the place to learn or debate these events long ago, but in general, I thought this was interesting. It's pained me to see the problems that have been in that part of the world.

[Batman.]

Meaning another goal to the New World Order.

Is this a view that you genuinely hold, or are you mucking about?

[1864roverite]

One more threat from tha fat kid in Korea and they should Nuke him in a preemptive strike and show him just exactly who holds the might in this world.

[adopted scouser]

One more threat from tha fat kid in Korea and they should Nuke him in a preemptive strike and show him just exactly who holds the might in this world.

Can't disagree with that, and his silly sycophantic followers. Marching behind missiles while they are starving to death

[broadsword]

How many innocents would that kill? More than a famine, I'd wager.

The situation needs a sophisticated approach. Binning North Korea back to the stone age might well put a few noses out of joint in Russia and China.

I don't really know what the solution is, I;d be tempted to invade and sort it out once and for all. Bet that won't happen though.

Oh well, I guess a limited nuclear war will go some way to solving the overpopulation problem, hope it doesn't leave too big a carbon footprint though. I'm living in a neutral country, so hopefully will be OK.

[Guest Norbert]

A war will be avoided as Seoul is well within striking range for the North's conventional weapons, and the whole of East Asia might be within range of their nuclear missiles. Any war with the North would need to be very quick and clinical so they cannot inflict too much damage on the South or Japan. Then you've got to de-program all the survivours who've been living under the Kim family for about 60 years.

[DE.]

North Korea will have to strike the first blow - America won't.

[Steve Moss]

I hope Kim Jong Un is sensible. He needs to engage with Beijing, Washington, Seoul and London about stepping down and transitioning toward a more stable and open political and economic structure.

Otherwise its a matter of when, not if.

[Blue n White Rover]

Don't bomb America, nuke Burnley!

[Guest Norbert]

I hope Kim Jong Un is sensible. He needs to engage with Beijing, Washington, Seoul and London about stepping down and transitioning toward a more stable and open political and economic structure.

Otherwise its a matter of when, not if.

That would be sensible, but North Korea is just a mad place detatched from reality. It is doubtful whether there is the will or the mental capacity for the elite to do this. Their bonkers ideology, and the fact they're living the good life means giving up power would be crazy for them regardless of the suffering of the people. They'd have too much to lose.

However, I do think Kim Jong Un will be the last ruler of North Korea, as one more big famine like that of the mid 1990's, and the regime will fall. There is already graffiti popping up slagging of the regime (a crime punishable by being sent to a gulag, or maybe death) and eventually the people will eventually have had enough of living like rats. One day there will be a realisation from the public that the propaganda is nonsense, and the rest of the world is far more advanced etc., and there is more than their current lives. A regime like North Korea cannot last forever, it will either be overthrown by a popular uprising, demolished by a war or just fall to bits.

[thenodrog]

One more threat from tha fat kid in Korea and they should Nuke him in a preemptive strike and show him just exactly who holds the might in this world.

Who are 'they' who should be doing all this nuking?

[Audax]

Sounds like NK is being very "belligerant", I believe that is the word.

[ultrablue]

I hope Kim Jong Un is sensible. He needs to engage with Beijing, Washington, Seoul and London about stepping down and transitioning toward a more stable and open political and economic structure.

Otherwise its a matter of when, not if.

This is precisely what will never happen. The sensible thing for Kim JU to do is have everyone worry about him having a nuclear missile. This tactic has been proved to give stability for the last 30 years. Its all about self preservation.

This article hits the nail on the head when it comes to media coverage of the last few weeks. a whole load of international journalists scrambling around Seoul trying to find a story. The BBC ended up interviewing a sausage maker in his 50s last week.

http://www.salon.com/2013/04/12/no_one_knows_anything_about_north_korea/