[Archived] Shebby Singh

[davulsukur]

It can't be easy trying to re-write history but you are giving it a good go. there was no better candidate for BRFC at the time and thats that. The question of who was better and who would come (and who would be likely stay) was asked time and again without anything like a plausible or realsitic answer in reply.

Stick to the facts Amarillo cos you appear to have conveniently forgotten that we went from a mid table comfort zone to scrapping to avoid relegation within half a season of employing Kean as predicted by many on here. Relegation the season after was virtually inevitable. It was like watching a car full of close relatives crash in slow motion. All so unecessary.

Are you saying there was no better option for Rovers at the time other than Steve Kean? Or are you referring to Allardyce?

[thenodrog]

allardyce.

[davulsukur]

Thank God

[M-K]

As for splitting the fan base at West Ham, well all I can see is him taking them into their new stadium and becoming a very big club under his stewardship

I doubt he'll get the chance to see WHam in their luxurious new taxpayer-funded home. Whatever the owners say about appreciating the good work he does, like Venkys they'll probably want a more glamorous option sooner or later.

[arbitro]

3 points from 2 games is 57 points extrapolated over a season arbitro. Well over our target. The OT score was one of those freak scorelines that happens to most clubs every so often, not nice to go through but MU were streets in front of 90% of Prem clubs at that time and that particuklar sesaon therte were lots of similar scorelines. It was imo the timing that was the kicker.

I was generally behind Sam but he missed an opportunity against Wolves to really put to bed the myth about his style. I would take substance over style in the majority of cases but I genuinely believe there were occasions when we should have gone for the jugular. The OT result wasn't a freak by the way. I do believe that Sam put out weaker teams in certain games and used damage limitation as his rationale.

[RibbleValleyRover]

What would you expect?

Learning the lessons of history is OK for losers. Having the intelligence and foresight not to need to is much better.

Are you a direct descendant of Pontious Pilate?

Oh what sweet irony..... now the dingles are laughing at you us.

btw I'd rather watch us beat Sunderland in the prem 1-0 for £12 than lose to Nottm Forest in the Championship for my now usual freebie .

Bit of a huge difference there Theno.

Pilate was the judge and jury who sent Christ to his death and therefore had a direct influence on the decision. Me as a Rovers fan who wasn't 100% happy with Allardyce and was open to exploring the possibility at the end of the season in replacing him had no influence or direct control over anything Rovers. I didn't tell Venky's to sack him and they didn't ask me either (If they had I would have said wait until the end of the season and if you are still set out on making a change explore it then).

Another point is that IIRC towards the end of his tenure at Rovers he was linked to several jobs and he never distanced himself once from them. So there was a possibility he would have moved on shortly anyway at the end of that season.

[saxo1man30]

i suspect strongly that JA was responsible for sam`s dismissel and kean`s appointment and continued occupation of the manager`s chair..

[thenodrog]

I was generally behind Sam but he missed an opportunity against Wolves to really put to bed the myth about his style. I would take substance over style in the majority of cases but I genuinely believe there were occasions when we should have gone for the jugular. The OT result wasn't a freak by the way. I do believe that Sam put out weaker teams in certain games and used damage limitation as his rationale.

Sams a Wolves fan isn't he? Maybe he had a desire to get 3 points professionally and in the bag and then ease back so as not to risk injury to his squad and humiiation to his old team. Fanciful or not?

[Majiball]

I think people's perceptions of Sam's football, rather than the football itself, polarises fans Maj. Many, many fans pre-judged him before he came here. Same at Newcastle. My dissatisfaction with Sam's football was his overuse of the long free kick. I always thought he should have mixed that up a bit more, but it was very effective. The football during open play was nowhere near as bad as some fans make out though - and especially so taking into consideration the league position when he took over and the fact he had to sell so many players. What exactly did people want?

At the end of the day Maj, fans satisfaction is shown through attendances and I've really seen nothing from any of his clubs to suggest they were so unhappy with him. As for splitting the fan base at West Ham, well all I can see is him taking them into their new stadium and becoming a very big club under his stewardship, assuming they don't go down the same route as us. Haven't most, if not all home games at Wham so far been virtually sold out? I would have to check that out.

For me it's definitely the football itself with Sam as I can't stand get it forward and play from there. Sam was and always has been capable of playing a different way as he showed at Rovers once we were safe. I take no issue with the way he started his regime as we were adrift and needed points asap. But over time i wanted to see progress in the way we played, which he showed at the tail end of that full season. But the next season it was back to his old ways so for me it wa regression. Sam had us playing very well the tail end and it was good to watch and we picked up points.

I'm afraid i can't agree that fans satisfaction is shown through attendances, all of Sam's clubs have had decent attendances and yet there was always sections who weren't happy with what they saw but happy with the outcome. We saw strong attendances at Ewood and yet fans weren't happy with what they were paying to see, the result won't be enough for everyone. We'll see how he gets on but a quick read of the boards and it would appear some hammers are saying similar to as we saw on here. Whether he will get the chance to bring forward a new dawn at West Ham is open to debate, but I'd like to think Sam will realise that he can be his own worst enemy at times, he aspires to compete at the very top and yet his chosen method hasn't gotten him there yet after several attempts. For me if Sam wants to compete at the very top of the game he will have to change and develop his method to better suit his goals.

[Rover_Shaun]

Sam and Kean both share the ignominious record of overseeing Rovers teams that conceeded 7 goals in one game........

[Majiball]

Learnt from what? You learn from your mistakes and we have got worse, and worse, and worse since Sam left. So his supporters didn't make any mistakes, Venkys did, possibly influenced by fans who did by vocally criticising him from the terraces in numerous games. In what sense did Sam take the shackles off at the end of 09/10? From the start of April our results were 0-0, 0-0, 2-3, 1-1, 2-1, 1-0. Take the 3-2 defeat to Everton out of the equation (where we took the shackles off and it didn't work) and we played the same way as usual. Our 2 goals in the win against Arsenal came from bullying their keeper off corners. Nothing changed, the long-ball moaners just couldn't hack that we'd finished 10th playing long ball, so some came up with the novel get-out that we weren't actually playing long-ball anymore.

I doubt any of his supporters have said that's the only way. A lot have said its the most effective way when you have inferior quality midfielders to the opposition. Quality depends on money, Sam had no money, so long-ball was the best tactic. Its his detractors who have a problem, too much Sky TV, watching the best players, and demanding their skint local club plays the same way. If I had one word to define the anti-Allardyce fans it would be unrealistic, and nothing that has happened since he left has even remotely indicated otherwise.

Clearly no middle ground will ever be found over Sam and that's the point the man is the footballing version of Marmite.

The style did change, take a look through the posts on here at the time. I saw a number of games across that season and will choose to believe my own eyes, sorry.

yes Sam didn't have the greatest of funds, but when he did what did he do? Did he meticulously ensure he signed a player that would fit in or did he sign a player he'd never seen play? As I've said direct football has it's place but these days a lot of people don't endorse it and never will. People will want to see progress as long ball will only take you so far in football. Sam at Bolton, Newcastle and Rovers played one system, one way and at all of those clubs the outcome has been the same (whether you agree with it or not), he gets sacked. hopefully he's learnt after seeing it fail him 3 times now, because one could say that constantly doing the same thing and expecting differing results is madness. For me if Sam is ever to get to the level he clearly believes he belongs at, then he will have to change. We'll see.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

I'm afraid i can't agree that fans satisfaction is shown through attendances, all of Sam's clubs have had decent attendances and yet there was always sections who weren't happy with what they saw but happy with the outcome. We saw strong attendances at Ewood and yet fans weren't happy with what they were paying to see, the result won't be enough for everyone. We'll see how he gets on but a quick read of the boards and it would appear some hammers are saying similar to as we saw on here.

How is it not? Some people will moan about anything because they enjoy doing it. The acid test for true disgruntlement is when they let their wallet do the talking. And that's what we're seeing now. The fan criticism now is far more vociferous than they were under Allardyce, but you're not hearing it because the critics aren't even turning up or bothering to go on message boards. The critics under Allardyce didn't like his style of play, the critics now just think we're absolutely ****. I know which I'd rather be criticised for if I was a manager.

Some fans weren't happy with what they were paying to see. There was always a quiet majority (or at least 50%) who were fine with it. Here's a question, why did all Bolton's fans love Sam, Newcastle's pretty much all hate him, and us and West Ham 50/50? Its down to expectation levels. Bolton were dire before Sam and so had a realistic viewpoint as to how quickly they could become dire again. Newcastle were suffering from delusions of grandeur from the Robson days, Rovers from the Hughes days, and West Ham from the Bobby Moore days. Difference is, Newcastle and West Ham are big clubs, Rovers aren't.

Did you know last season was West Ham's highest average attendance in their history? That's what Sam does to a club.

[frosty]

Pretty sure he didn't get sacked at Bolton? And the only reason he got sacked here was because of mental owners + JA, Newcastle weren't even doing that bad. All 3 clubs went downhill after Big Sam left.

[arbitro]

Sams a Wolves fan isn't he? Maybe he had a desire to get 3 points professionally and in the bag and then ease back so as not to risk injury to his squad and humiiation to his old team. Fanciful or not?

Probably fanciful mate as I think he is a Baggie and should have a deep rooted dislike of Wolves

[den]

For me it's definitely the football itself with Sam as I can't stand get it forward and play from there. Sam was and always has been capable of playing a different way as he showed at Rovers once we were safe. I take no issue with the way he started his regime as we were adrift and needed points asap. But over time i wanted to see progress in the way we played, which he showed at the tail end of that full season. But the next season it was back to his old ways so for me it wa regression. Sam had us playing very well the tail end and it was good to watch and we picked up points.

I'm afraid i can't agree that fans satisfaction is shown through attendances, all of Sam's clubs have had decent attendances and yet there was always sections who weren't happy with what they saw but happy with the outcome. We saw strong attendances at Ewood and yet fans weren't happy with what they were paying to see, the result won't be enough for everyone. We'll see how he gets on but a quick read of the boards and it would appear some hammers are saying similar to as we saw on here. Whether he will get the chance to bring forward a new dawn at West Ham is open to debate, but I'd like to think Sam will realise that he can be his own worst enemy at times, he aspires to compete at the very top and yet his chosen method hasn't gotten him there yet after several attempts. For me if Sam wants to compete at the very top of the game he will have to change and develop his method to better suit his goals.

We won the Premier League title with "get it forward and play from there Maj." We couldn't have won it any other way.

There's nothing wrong with getting the ball forward early. Lot's of successful sides have played that way.I remember no complaints when it was Sutton and Shearer on the end. Basically, there are two ways of playing. You either try to get the ball forward to a target man who can hold off a defender, then get support to him ASAP, or you use various ways of playing through midfield. Sam used the first option, as did Dalglish. Unfortunately, he was forced into selling RSC, wanted to replace him with Kevin Davis, but wasn't given the money. He finished up by making the wrong choice in Kalinic, who couldn't trap a bag of cement.

To me, that's how Sam had always played and it's how he wanted to play at Ewood. Trouble is, he never had the personnel he needed. Most of his tenure was spent selling players and firefighting. It was also unfortunate that the fans who were against him from the off decided to label that type of game as hoofball. They wanted to see a rovers side who were near to relegation, trying to out pass the rest of the Premier League.

I've got to differ with the assertion that he changed his playing style for the last few games as well. The pressure was off, we had a great home record and the team played better for it. Simple as that.

[Mike E]

Tbh I saw very little difference between Sam and Hughes' styles. Hughes had a fit, hard, rough-'em-up style where we had constant cross-field balls leading to goals and the occasional wondergoal. Kinda like Sam. Only difference being we'd score direct from freekicks with Hughes and indirect with Sam.

[thenodrog]

We won the Premier League title with "get it forward and play from there Maj." We couldn't have won it any other way.

There's nothing wrong with getting the ball forward early. Lot's of successful sides have played that way.I remember no complaints when it was Sutton and Shearer on the end. Basically, there are two ways of playing. You either try to get the ball forward to a target man who can hold off a defender, then get support to him ASAP, or you use various ways of playing through midfield. Sam used the first option, as did Dalglish. Unfortunately, he was forced into selling RSC, wanted to replace him with Kevin Davis, but wasn't given the money. He finished up by making the wrong choice in Kalinic, who couldn't trap a bag of cement.

Topically after passing it in and around our half for large chunks of the match Forest just beat us with a massive 'hoofball'. I wish we'd done it to them. When considering football it's not long or short passing that matters it's good and bad passing.

[davulsukur]

Tbh I saw very little difference between Sam and Hughes' styles. Hughes had a fit, hard, rough-'em-up style where we had constant cross-field balls leading to goals and the occasional wondergoal. Kinda like Sam. Only difference being we'd score direct from freekicks with Hughes and indirect with Sam.

Maybe at first but the 05/06 season has to be one of the best season in Rovers more recent history.

played some decent football. In form Peds, Bentley and Bellers being the main players.

[thenodrog]

Here's a question, why did all Bolton's fans love Sam, Newcastle's pretty much all hate him, and us and West Ham 50/50? Its down to expectation levels. Bolton were dire before Sam and so had a realistic viewpoint as to how quickly they could become dire again. Newcastle were suffering from delusions of grandeur from the Robson Sir John Hall / Mike Ashley influence, Rovers from the Hughes Jack Walker years and West Ham from the Bobby Moore Eggart Magnusson days. Difference is, Newcastle and West Ham are big clubs, Rovers aren't.

Did you know last season was West Ham's highest average attendance in their history? That's what Sam does to a club.

I suggest it's all just more evidence of the evil influence of money in football. Breeding unreasonable expectation and ideas way above their station in any given club's fan base does appear to have serious downsides when it all inevitably dries up.

[Sandiway Blue]

Oops! My bad,i thought this was the Shebby Singh thread.....

[thenodrog]

Shebby who?

[Mike E]

Maybe at first but the 05/06 season has to be one of the best season in Rovers more recent history.

played some decent football. In form Peds, Bentley and Bellers being the main players.

By no means was I suggesting it was poor to watch. It was terrific.

I think a Cloughie quote is apt here: 'Football can be played in different ways to get the same results.'

Hughes imo succeeded more on the basis of fitness, aggression and tactical nous. The style of play is down to the ability of the players. Which is why Hughes gradually let the style change while keeping his main 3 components intact.

Sam was doing exactly the same and just shy of his sacking, we were playing the kind of 'bomb down the wing' stuff that Kenny and Hughes would've played and been proud of.

[roverandout]

Why are west ham seen as a big club? They ain't, certainly not much bigger than rovers

[K-Hod]

Why are west ham seen as a big club? They ain't, certainly not much bigger than rovers

In terms of success, perhaps not. In terms of fanbase- miles ahead of Rovers.

[Mike E]

Why are west ham seen as a big club? They ain't, certainly not much bigger than rovers

They won the world cup, you know :/