[Archived] Football attendances

[up and rover]

I got this fromt he BBC website then added the extra column with % fall/gain.

It doesn't look good, even though the other two relegated teams in Wolves and Bolton fell it was nowhere near like the fall in our numbers and Wolves had a worser season than us.......

Club 2012-13 average 2011-12 average % change

Rotherham United 7,954 3,498 127%

Ross County 4,343 2,873 51%

Dundee 5,943 4,223 41%

Brighton & Hove Albion 26,236 20,029 31%

Gillingham 6,601 5,146 28%

Fleetwood Town 2,855 2,264 26%

Reading 23,862 19,219 24%

Tranmere Rovers 6,172 5,130 20%

York City 3,878 3,239 20%

Crewe Alexandra 4,903 4,124 19%

Port Vale 5,727 4,819 19%

Juventus 38,703 32,610 19%

Benfica 44,706 38,029 18%

Southampton 30,873 26,419 17%

Bournemouth 6,852 5,881 17%

Crystal Palace 17,280 15,219 14%

Sheffield Wednesday 24,078 21,336 13%

West Ham 34,719 30,923 12%

Brentford 6,302 5,643 12%

Everton 36,355 33,228 9%

Blackpool 13,916 12,764 9%

Huddersfield Town 15,113 14,131 7%

Barnet 2,439 2,288 7%

Hibernian 10,543 9,909 6%

Crawley Town 3,408 3,212 6%

Watford 13,453 12,710 6%

Charlton Athletic 18,499 17,485 6%

Nottingham Forest 23,082 21,969 5%

Bristol Rovers 6,308 6,035 5%

Cardiff City 22,998 22,100 4%

Sunderland 40,544 39,095 4%

Aston Villa 35,059 33,873 4%

PSG 43,142 41,921 3%

Bayern Munich 71,000 69,000 3%

Wigan Athletic 19,173 18,633 3%

Aberdeen 9,563 9,297 3%

Queens Park Rangers 17,779 17,295 3%

Plymouth Argyle 7,095 6,915 3%

West Brom 25,359 24,798 2%

Yeovil Town 4,071 3,984 2%

Swansea City 20,370 19,946 2%

Ajax 51,037 50,044 2%

Burton Albion 2,859 2,809 2%

Bradford City 10,322 10,171 1%

Swindon Town 8,528 8,410 1%

Newcastle United 50,517 49,935 1%

Liverpool 44,748 44,253 1%

Fulham 25,394 25,293 0%

Inverness Caledonian Thistle 4,038 4,023 0%

Norwich City 26,671 26,605 0%

Manchester United 75,529 75,387 0%

Arsenal 60,079 60,000 0%

Tottenham Hotspur 36,066 36,026 0%

Dundee United 7,482 7,482 0%

Borussia Dortmund 80,512 80,521 0%

Chelsea 41,462 41,478 0%

Manchester City 46,974 47,044 0%

Sheffield United 18,611 18,701 0%

MK Dons 8,611 8,659 -1%

Shrewsbury Town 5,735 5,769 -1%

Walsall 4,234 4,274 -1%

Stoke City 26,919 27,225 -1%

Barnsley 10,207 10,331 -1%

Rangers 45,750 46,324 -1%

Heart of Midlothian 13,163 13,381 -2%

Northampton Town 4,785 4,867 -2%

St Mirren 4,389 4,493 -2%

Bristol City 13,348 13,907 -4%

Ipswich Town 17,526 18,266 -4%

Real Madrid 71,555 74,678 -4%

Leicester City 22,054 23,036 -4%

Middlesbrough 16,794 17,557 -4%

Cheltenham Town 3,252 3,424 -5%

AFC Wimbledon 4,060 4,294 -5%

Torquay United 2,709 2,869 -6%

Accrington Stanley 1,674 1,784 -6%

Inter Milan 44,828 47,913 -6%

Oldham Athletic 4,128 4,432 -7%

Leyton Orient 4,001 4,298 -7%

Exeter City 4,141 4,474 -7%

Hull City 17,368 18,790 -8%

Leeds United 21,572 23,379 -8%

Celtic 46,917 50,904 -8%

Burnley 12,928 14,048 -8%

Millwall 10,559 11,484 -8%

Colchester United 3,529 3,865 -9%

Morecambe 1,954 2,144 -9%

Dagenham & Redbridge 1,903 2,090 -9%

Motherwell 5,362 5,946 -10%

Peterborough United 8,215 9,110 -10%

Derby County 23,228 26,020 -11%

Stevenage 3,169 3,558 -11%

Barcelona 74,911 84,119 -11%

Birmingham City 16,702 19,126 -13%

St Johnstone 3,640 4,170 -13%

Kilmarnock 4,745 5,537 -14%

Wolverhampton Wanderers 21,662 25,682 -16%

Southend United 5,034 5,969 -16%

Carlisle United 4,302 5,284 -19%

Portsmouth 12,232 15,044 -19%

Notts County 5,521 6,807 -19%

Oxford United 5,954 7,451 -20%

Aldershot Town 2,271 2,864 -21%

Rochdale 2,439 3,108 -22%

Preston North End 9,214 11,820 -22%

Doncaster Rovers 7,238 9,341 -23%

Bury 2,749 3,552 -23%

Scunthorpe United 3,348 4,331 -23%

Wycombe Wanderers 3,720 4,843 -23%

Bolton Wanderers 18,103 23,669 -24%

Hartlepool United 3,612 4,960 -27%

Coventry City 10,948 15,118 -28%

Blackburn Rovers 14,974 22,551 -34%

Chesterfield 5,431 9,279 -41%

[Roost]

That makes grim reading.

A 34% drop is shocking, and to think Agnew wants to reward loyalty with his new season ticket incentive.

Just read this list you bufoon - for all the damage you have done you should be giving away free season tickets - paid for out of your own pocket (or your bosses pocket, and I dont mean Venkys)

[Rover_Shaun]

Bumleys gates have plummeted too. As have nob ends

[SAS]

And that's with Agnews inflated crowd numbers.

[Roost]

-8% isnt really a plummet

-22% is a plummet

-34% is a nosedive into oblivion

[MrT]

Looks like Chesterfield are going through tough times, Coventry are having serious problems too.

Surely people cant say such a massive drop off is because of relegation

looking at Wolves and Notlob id say we should of dropped around 20% due to relegation under normal circumstances.

[Rover_Shaun]

-8% isnt really a plummet

But the Dingles keep saying their support is Massif !!

[SAS]

But the Dingles keep saying their support is Massif !!

That's with them having a sell out derby which they wouldn't normally have too!

[DavidMailsTightPerm]

-8% isnt really a plummet

-22% is a plummet

-34% is a nosedive into oblivion

I think you have to view these figures in the context of what was going on at the club - our ST sales fell mainly/partly as a result of Steve Kean still being in the role - and we never really recovered (in fact things got worse).

With the right manager - good pricing - holding onto prime assets like Rhodes - and a better season on the pitch - I would hope we would at least halt the rot. Having said all that - who knows what will happen - as stability doesn't look on the horizon at the moment.

[SamDingle]

But the Dingles keep saying their support is Massif !!

We don't, we're one of the smallest clubs in this league and we know it.

If we go down, we'll be one of half a dozen larger clubs in League One. That's how it is, so all these years at this level is an achievement, even if it doesn't feel like it.

We do however have some of the most expensive ticket prices in the league these days, so our actual revenue (which is all that matters in football) is probably just outside the bottom three, even without the last of our parachute payments.

[thenodrog]

Bumleys gates have plummeted too. As have nob ends

I can see Burnley having a bigger average than us next season by a comfortable margin.

However add on Stanley (Blackpool seem to be bucking the trend but I'd imagine they'll fall swiftly back in line next season). and thats all 5 local clubs seeing falling gates and falling income! With Wigan likely to follow suit SO where do we all go from here?

[jim mk2]

Plus Stanley although Blackpool seem to be bucking the trend (but I'd imagine they'll fall swiftly back in line next season). So thats all 5 local clubs seeing falling gates and falling income! With Wigan likely to follow suit where do we all; go from here?

Regroup and rebuild and fight back like Lancy clubs have always done in the past.

Anything else or are you trying to divert yet another thread to your own agenda ?

[thenodrog]

Head in the sand still I see....... Must make a pleasant change for you cos it's normally up your own arse.

[Rover_Shaun]

5 clubs with those averages is more than Lancs (American Francise) Utd in front of 500

[thenodrog]

The only reason that NW clubs have had a good recent spell is down to 'funnymoney' coming into the clubs. Whelan / Walker / Davies and to a lesser extent Flood and Oyston. So lets have the benefit of your opinions on this thread. You too Doris....

http://www.brfcs.com/mb/index.php/topic/29481-understanding-uefa-financial-fair-play/

Off you go.....

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

You don't think it would work as adding up all the clubs gates in Lancashire and thats what attendances Lancashire United would get do you? Given the widespread repulsion at the idea, you'd lose 50% of fans straight off to reformed amateur clubs, other clubs in general and other sports. You'd get a worse fanbase to attendees ratio as fans wouldn't feel a longstanding compulsion to attend, plus prices would likely be higher than they are at say Rovers and Wigan now. And depending on where it was located you'd get a much lower turnout from clubs who's fans had to travel more than say 30 minutes to get to the ground. Merging Blackpool, Preston, Rovers, Burnley, Bolton and Wigan would produce a "Lancashire United" with attendances of about 30,000. Hardly the arrival of a footballing superpower and hardly worth destroying 5 founder members for.

[jim mk2]

Head in the sand still I see....... Must make a pleasant change for you cos it's normally up your own arse.

Very intelligent response .... well done.

Lancashire United (there, I've gone and said it for you) is a non-starter. You've been told why many times.

[thenodrog]

You don't think it would work as adding up all the clubs gates in Lancashire and thats what attendances Lancashire United would get do you? Given the widespread repulsion at the idea, you'd lose 50% of fans straight off to reformed amateur clubs, other clubs in general and other sports. You'd get a worse fanbase to attendees ratio as fans wouldn't feel a longstanding compulsion to attend, plus prices would likely be higher than they are at say Rovers and Wigan now. And depending on where it was located you'd get a much lower turnout from clubs who's fans had to travel more than say 30 minutes to get to the ground. Merging Blackpool, Preston, Rovers, Burnley, Bolton and Wigan would produce a "Lancashire United" with attendances of about 30,000. Hardly the arrival of a footballing superpower and hardly worth destroying 5 founder members for.

Attendance of 30k would be brilliant cos it would grow from there as kids replace the dead and dying.

BUT..... What you need to factor in SKH and this is the real massive kicker is the shedding of at least (est) 80% of associated costs and expenses.

1. One ground to maintain.

2. One training ground and assoc costs re : physio, youth, medical staff etc.

3. 25% of Admin,

4. 25% of current leki, water, bus rate etc etc.

and

5. a 75% cut in player and coaching staff wages!!!

[Rover_Shaun]

30k? Not in anyones wildest wetdreams

Dead duck idea. always has. always will

[SamDingle]

Even I can see thenodrog's a single issue campaigner on here. But this is the bit I don't understand.

At the moment everyone in Lancashire can support their local club with all its traditions and limitations. Or they can drive half an hour and watch one of the biggest and best clubs in world football.

Are Lancashire United going to be better than Man Utd? Better than Man City? Are they going to mean more than the clubs, history and tradition we have now? I don't really see the point of where they would fit in.

I've been watching decent championship football for nearly 15 years now with a brief sojourn into the Prem. Why the hell would I or anyone else want to throw that away for a vague, unrealistic prospect of limited success 20 miles away which means nothing to me?

Would the next generation, the kids buy into it? If they won every week, if they were better than Man Utd they would. But they won't be. The best Lancashire United could hope to be is a bit better than Bolton. That isn't going to bring Champions League football.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

Attendance of 30k would be brilliant cos it would grow from there as kids replace the dead and dying.

BUT..... What you need to factor in SKH and this is the real massive kicker is the shedding of at least (est) 80% of associated costs and expenses.

1. One ground to maintain.

2. One training ground and assoc costs re : physio, youth, medical staff etc.

3. 25% of Admin,

4. 25% of current leki, water, bus rate etc etc.

and

5. a 75% cut in player and coaching staff wages!!!

Why would it grow? It'd still be the unfashionable, unimpressive little brother of United, Liverpool and City, so gloryhunters would still be siphoned away from it in much the same way as is happening with the current 6 clubs.

Yeah you would save money on all those, but as I pointed out, you'd likely lose about 65% of those clubs combined support in setting it up. Which isn't just gate receipts, fanbase size dictates every avenue of wealth except for tv money.

It'd just be a mid-table/bottom half PL side that still got relegated occasionally, bit like say Southampton or West Ham. Whats so good about that?

[longsiders1882]

-8% isnt really a plummet

-22% is a plummet

-34% is a nosedive into oblivion

Still part of a regualr downward trend though. Like PNE, once we drop into League 1 we will also probably see gates at around 9K

But the Dingles keep saying their support is Massif !!

Do we, where, go on, show us some recent examples.

That's with them having a sell out derby which they wouldn't normally have too!

As did you. A strange argument but yes, a sell out against your shower may well have added 200 to the average. Even now you would prefer to have a dig at us than worry about losing a third of your fans.

The simple truth is that without the attraction of the 'big clubs' then your gates are unlikely to recover significantly. Ours will continue a slow decline unless we have a season that brings some minimal success, you will need to really make your parachute payments count over the next couple of seasons or the same fate awaits you as does us, Blackpool etc.

[thenodrog]

Why would it grow? It'd still be the unfashionable, unimpressive little brother of United, Liverpool and City, so gloryhunters would still be siphoned away from it in much the same way as is happening with the current 6 clubs.

Yeah you would save money on all those, but as I pointed out, you'd likely lose about 65% of those clubs combined support in setting it up. Which isn't just gate receipts, fanbase size dictates every avenue of wealth except for tv money.

It'd just be a mid-table/bottom half PL side that still got relegated occasionally, bit like say Southampton or West Ham. Whats so good about that?

You are assuming that the status quo in football will remain forever when it wont. The financial fair play rules make it completely necessary to move forward. Not only that but without wealth imputted by billionaires the likes of City, Chelsea, and Liverpool will fall back in line with the rest (Livvie already are living on their history, they've finished below their borassic near neighbours and Henry is not a billionaire by a long chalk).

btw "Why would it grow? It'd still be the unfashionable, unimpressive little brother of United, Liverpool and City, so gloryhunters would still be siphoned away from it in much the same way as is happening with the current 6 clubs."

Steve. It would grow if the new club was successful and with conditions as they are with all the local clubs falling back with little hope of success it would not have much to beat. I rem 20 years ago when the combined average attendance of all 6 local clubs would hardly exceed 20k, so who is to say that scenario won't repeat itself? We would have a solid local support base and a massive hinterland to the North, North East and East in fcat one very similar to that enjoyed by NUFC today.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

You are assuming that the status quo in football will remain forever when it wont. The financial fair play rules make it completely necessary to move forward. Not only that but without wealth imputted by billionaires the likes of City, Chelsea, and Liverpool will fall back in line with the rest (Livvie already are living on their history, they've finished below their borassic near neighbours and Henry is not a billionaire by a long chalk).

Steve. It would grow if the new club was successful and with conditions as they are with all the local clubs falling back with little hope of success it would not have much to beat. I rem 20 years ago when the combined average attendance of all 6 local clubs would hardly exceed 20k, so who is to say that scenario won't repeat itself? We would have a solid local support base and a massive hinterland to the North, North East and East in fcat one very similar to that enjoyed by NUFC today.

I can't even unpick the phrase "move/moving forward" from the collection of managerial catchphrases when its used at work, so pretty much no chance in this scenario. But whichever way we're moving, I don't see how the financial fair play rules are gonna affect anyone other than Wigan. We ain't gonna get another Jack Walker ever again, and I doubt any of the other Lancashire clubs will either, so its a case of living within our means whether the rules come in or not. And regardless of how it affects them, we won't get anywhere near Liverpool, Chelsea and City, those 3 clubs have worldwide fanbases that number in the tens/hundreds of millions. They can play fair as you want and still blow Lancashire United out of the water.

The 20k won't repeat itself because for 20 years prices to watch football have been rising at a level way above inflation, and in that time all 6 main Lancashire clubs have still seen growth in their support. Its receeding now, but theres no way it'll receed back to the 1990 level because of large-scale factors affecting english football like the quelling of hooliganism, improvements to grounds and vastly increased participation of women/families.

I still disagree on the growing support. We wouldn't have a solid support base because the other 5 clubs wouldn't feel anywhere near the same allegiance to a club based in say Bolton as Newcastle fans have to a club based in Newcastle. The importance of the concept of Lancashire in sport is now non-existent outside of cricket, and indeed in politics its now a forgotten national backwater, about a quarter the geographical area of Yorkshire and with less than half the population of Greater Manchester. I hate to say it but I doubt there are many people who think of themselves as proud Lancastrians amongst the younger generations these days. If you set up a new Lancashire club based in Bolton, I doubt kids in Blackburn are gonna feel any more loyalty to it than they would to Man Utd.

[SAS]

Still part of a regualr downward trend though. Like PNE, once we drop into League 1 we will also probably see gates at around 9K

Do we, where, go on, show us some recent examples.

As did you. A strange argument but yes, a sell out against your shower may well have added 200 to the average. Even now you would prefer to have a dig at us than worry about losing a third of your fans.

The simple truth is that without the attraction of the 'big clubs' then your gates are unlikely to recover significantly. Ours will continue a slow decline unless we have a season that brings some minimal success, you will need to really make your parachute payments count over the next couple of seasons or the same fate awaits you as does us, Blackpool etc.

We had 7,000 empty seats?