[Archived] possible transfer targets summer 2013

[CapeTownRover]

I rarely post here, just been lurking for a long time lately. But I have to say that is the funniest thing I have ever read on this forum!

i think to be fair to Jal, he does make a very good point about midfield players. I posted somewhere something similar to this, and said that back in the day, there were no such thing as Defensive midfielders. If you were part of the engine room, you should be able to push up when on attack, and quickly track back when the opposition has the ball. I dont know what part is funny about that, but thats just how it use to be, You had to be super fit, as your job was to attack and defend equally well if you wanted to be a midfielder.

These days, we now have specific players having to do extra work, to cover other players who lack the ability to put their foot in and defend. to me that is a lod of rubbish, as not only does it put extra strain on that player having to cover, it also takes one extra player out of a situation when it comes to getting behind the ball.

[JBiz]

As Donald Sutherland said on Kelly's heroes many times, "whats with the negative vibes"

What we are facing this season is not positive when compared to the last twenty years, but certainly an improvement on the hatred surrounding staff at this point last year. Unless something drastic changes in terms of the way our owners are running the club, Venkys will not bring in an expensive manager. Out of all the rookies they have hired so far, Gary has performed best. He is also a man who knows the club and the fans. His promotion is also not due to his agent or an interview either- its through results in the position.

His lack of experience is something which only changes by doing the job, and I know it's not perfect it is with us, but he won't be the first manager we've had without that experience. We've had some duck eggs, but don't forget Mark Hughes had no club or top level experience when we hired him.

As for the signings- Dj, Kane and Kilgallon have succeeded at this level. Judge succeeded at the level below in a similar way but different position to Jordan Rhodes. Taylor has been rated, plus performed admirably in the two games against rovers last season. Marrow I do not know but he is from the same youth squads as Hanley, morris, Judge and Lowe. All of these incoming show a decision making process based on cutting cloth accordingly and building a British and hungry squad. I think this is a better option than signing 6 Portuguese unknowns with the hope one will be a hit or spending 8m on one player (12m with wages a whopping 1/4 of all the parachute money over 4 years - thank fook Rhodes can play)

So I say if your a doom bringer, consider last summer- and the summer before that. Consider the last few weeks of the season where Appleton/berg/Kean would have certainly taken us down.

Gary is not perfect, these signings are not ground breaking- but they both are easier to get behind for me because we do not have the hang up of agents, massive wages, bullshit in the press or foreign nobodies.

[davulsukur]

i think to be fair to Jal, he does make a very good point about midfield players. I posted somewhere something similar to this, and said that back in the day, there were no such thing as Defensive midfielders. If you were part of the engine room, you should be able to push up when on attack, and quickly track back when the opposition has the ball. I dont know what part is funny about that, but thats just how it use to be, You had to be super fit, as your job was to attack and defend equally well if you wanted to be a midfielder.

These days, we now have specific players having to do extra work, to cover other players who lack the ability to put their foot in and defend. to me that is a lod of rubbish, as not only does it put extra strain on that player having to cover, it also takes one extra player out of a situation when it comes to getting behind the ball.

If you had a midfielder who was a quick, box to box workhorse, who scored goals and got back in position to defend well, not only would he be no where near Rovers, he'd be worth an absolute fortune.

The game has moved on, it's faster. I would imagine that players are a lot fitter these days than they were back in the day due to the increased involvement of sports science etc.

Players won't be able to bomb forward and then get back in time in order to break up a counter attack. It just won't happen.

Even Man Utd have defensive/attacking midfielders in their squad. Not really sure what the gripe is with regards to defensive mids is, last season we seriously lacked a player who would stick the boot in and crunch some poor sucker in the middle of the park (within the laws of the game )

[bennyboyt11]

i think to be fair to Jal, he does make a very good point about midfield players. I posted somewhere something similar to this, and said that back in the day, there were no such thing as Defensive midfielders. If you were part of the engine room, you should be able to push up when on attack, and quickly track back when the opposition has the ball. I dont know what part is funny about that, but thats just how it use to be, You had to be super fit, as your job was to attack and defend equally well if you wanted to be a midfielder.

These days, we now have specific players having to do extra work, to cover other players who lack the ability to put their foot in and defend. to me that is a lod of rubbish, as not only does it put extra strain on that player having to cover, it also takes one extra player out of a situation when it comes to getting behind the ball.

'Back in the day' is an incredibly pointless analogy to make, especially for the idea they were fitter. 'Back in the day' steak was seen as a good meal before a game and getting @#/? and smoking was a suitable after match activity.

Sports evolve for a reason.

[Al]

i think to be fair to Jal, he does make a very good point about midfield players. I posted somewhere something similar to this, and said that back in the day, there were no such thing as Defensive midfielders. If you were part of the engine room, you should be able to push up when on attack, and quickly track back when the opposition has the ball. I dont know what part is funny about that, but thats just how it use to be, You had to be super fit, as your job was to attack and defend equally well if you wanted to be a midfielder.

These days, we now have specific players having to do extra work, to cover other players who lack the ability to put their foot in and defend. to me that is a lod of rubbish, as not only does it put extra strain on that player having to cover, it also takes one extra player out of a situation when it comes to getting behind the ball.

If you don't have defensive midfielders your defence gets overrun as evidenced by the last couple of seasons at Rovers.

[broadsword]

As Donald Sutherland said on Kelly's heroes many times, "whats with the negative vibes"

"negative waves", no?

[CapeTownRover]

If you had a midfielder who was a quick, box to box workhorse, who scored goals and got back in position to defend well, not only would he be no where near Rovers, he'd be worth an absolute fortune.

The game has moved on, it's faster. I would imagine that players are a lot fitter these days than they were back in the day due to the increased involvement of sports science etc.

Players won't be able to bomb forward and then get back in time in order to break up a counter attack. It just won't happen.

Even Man Utd have defensive/attacking midfielders in their squad. Not really sure what the gripe is with regards to defensive mids is, last season we seriously lacked a player who would stick the boot in and crunch some poor sucker in the middle of the park (within the laws of the game )

thats where i have an issue with this.. you are looking at 1 player to do an entire midfields work. Are you telling me, that the rest of the midfield cannot or are not allowed to put their foot in, and crunch somebody? It doesnt mean that you are more an attacking player, that you are excused at making a tackle, or find it difficult to put your boot in.

If you don't have defensive midfielders your defence gets overrun as evidenced by the last couple of seasons at Rovers.

so basically Al, what you are saying, that if the opposition attacks with 4 or 5 players, the defensive midfielder should be able to stop them from over running the defence? where are the rest of our midfield, are they up front waiting because they are not Defensive midfielders and shouldnt be getting back to help out?

[alexanders]

Its all about balance CTR.

[davulsukur]

thats where i have an issue with this.. you are looking at 1 player to do an entire midfields work. Are you telling me, that the rest of the midfield cannot or are not allowed to put their foot in, and crunch somebody? It doesnt mean that you are more an attacking player, that you are excused at making a tackle, or find it difficult to put your boot in.

so basically Al, what you are saying, that if the opposition attacks with 4 or 5 players, the defensive midfielder should be able to stop them from over running the defence? where are the rest of our midfield, are they up front waiting because they are not Defensive midfielders and shouldnt be getting back to help out?

Come on now, of course it doesn't excuse the rest of the midfield from making challenges but you won't get all of your midfield putting in constant strong challenges for a full game.

Would you even want them to? Most wingers won't have much tackling ability and the amount of injuries and cards you would get would be crazy.

Can you see Fabio Nunes sliding in and mauling an opponent? probably not but then would you want to play Mokoena as left winger to make up for it?

As Alexanders says, its about balance.

[rigger]

Come on now, of course it doesn't excuse the rest of the midfield from making challenges but you won't get all of your midfield putting in constant strong challenges for a full game.

Would you even want them to? Most wingers won't have much tackling ability and the amount of injuries and cards you would get would be crazy.

Can you see Fabio Nunes sliding in and mauling an opponent? probably not but then would you want to play Mokoena as left winger to make up for it?

As Alexanders says, its about balance.

I think its also about drive and determination to win.

[EgyptianPete]

What we are facing this season is not positive when compared to the last twenty years, but certainly an improvement on the hatred surrounding staff at this point last year. Unless something drastic changes in terms of the way our owners are running the club, Venkys will not bring in an expensive manager. Out of all the rookies they have hired so far, Gary has performed best. He is also a man who knows the club and the fans. His promotion is also not due to his agent or an interview either- its through results in the position.

His lack of experience is something which only changes by doing the job, and I know it's not perfect it is with us, but he won't be the first manager we've had without that experience. We've had some duck eggs, but don't forget Mark Hughes had no club or top level experience when we hired him.

As for the signings- Dj, Kane and Kilgallon have succeeded at this level. Judge succeeded at the level below in a similar way but different position to Jordan Rhodes. Taylor has been rated, plus performed admirably in the two games against rovers last season. Marrow I do not know but he is from the same youth squads as Hanley, morris, Judge and Lowe. All of these incoming show a decision making process based on cutting cloth accordingly and building a British and hungry squad. I think this is a better option than signing 6 Portuguese unknowns with the hope one will be a hit or spending 8m on one player (12m with wages a whopping 1/4 of all the parachute money over 4 years - thank fook Rhodes can play)

So I say if your a doom bringer, consider last summer- and the summer before that. Consider the last few weeks of the season where Appleton/berg/Kean would have certainly taken us down.

Gary is not perfect, these signings are not ground breaking- but they both are easier to get behind for me because we do not have the hang up of agents, massive wages, bullshit in the press or foreign nobodies.

Hey Jbizzel, i think you got the wrong end of the stick with my little quip, i was referring to other posters who continually talk down our chances, i am as optimistic as i have ever been, the changes since GB took over have been a breath of fresh air over the last two/three diabolical seasons, just get rid of Shaw and we have a relatively clean slate. By the way good post.

"negative waves", no?

Yep, i stand corrected

[CapeTownRover]

Come on now, of course it doesn't excuse the rest of the midfield from making challenges but you won't get all of your midfield putting in constant strong challenges for a full game.

Would you even want them to? Most wingers won't have much tackling ability and the amount of injuries and cards you would get would be crazy.

Can you see Fabio Nunes sliding in and mauling an opponent? probably not but then would you want to play Mokoena as left winger to make up for it?

As Alexanders says, its about balance.

again i think its a point where you put so much pressure on that defensive midfielder, as well as the defence, when you have wingers who cant track back, and defend as well. Im sorry, how can you allow a left or right back to stand up to 2 or 3 players making over lapping runs or getting in behind them, while the winger stands there and watches. When your left back or right back goes for the opposition player, the winger should at least track back, and fall into place should the defender be taken out.

I dont get this thinking, esp the bit about balance. How can the team be balanced, when 1/3 of the team is struggling to cope, while the other 1/3 is standing around because its not their duty to defend?

[davulsukur]

woah there ctr, you have gone from midfielders to putting a foot in to tracking back. There is a difference.

I am not for one minute saying wingers shouldn't track back, of course they should but we were originally talking about a defensive central midfielder and you not seeing the point in them.

ALL of the squad should work hard but the point of having a DM is that when the opposition counter they can hold up play, allowing the rest of the team to get back into position.

[K-Hod]

As Donald Sutherland said on Kelly's heroes many times, "whats with the negative vibes"

Are you new here?

[Al]

thats where i have an issue with this.. you are looking at 1 player to do an entire midfields work. Are you telling me, that the rest of the midfield cannot or are not allowed to put their foot in, and crunch somebody? It doesnt mean that you are more an attacking player, that you are excused at making a tackle, or find it difficult to put your boot in.

so basically Al, what you are saying, that if the opposition attacks with 4 or 5 players, the defensive midfielder should be able to stop them from over running the defence? where are the rest of our midfield, are they up front waiting because they are not Defensive midfielders and shouldnt be getting back to help out?

Do try to keep up. Of course he doesn't do it on his own he helps his defence. That's what a defensive midfielder does. Sometimes teams have two .

Would you prefer a huge gap between attackers and defenders where the opposition can play unrestricted? That's suicide. It's already been pointed out that with the speed of modern play midfielders cannot be at both ends of the field at once.

[bennyboyt11]

I'm not really sure why you're arguing against a system which is in place in every single top flight side, CTR.

It's an essential job that's one of the most appreciated positions on the pitch, especially by the players team mates.

[CapeTownRover]

im not against a Def midfielder, dont get me wrong. However, my gripe with it, is that too often, the rest of the midfield get lazy, and they dont track back, because they know there is somebody who will cover for them. what im trying to get at here, is that its okay to have a spoiler in midfield, however, the midfield was or still is known as the engine room of a team. Midfielders are not known just for its attacking sense, but also for being able to get back and defend. If the opposition take out that defensive midfielder, then based on some, is the reason why our defence struggle. Now, why should a def midfielder b allowed to do all the hard work, when there are more often than not 5 in midfield? Viera and Kean were hard men in midfield, but that didnt mean the likes of Scholes and Petit etc didnt help out with tackles of their own. We are basically wanting somebody hard in midfield, because the rest of the midfield are all Pansies and softies.

[davulsukur]

I bet alot of man utd fans wish Scholes didn't tackle

If the rest of players are getting lazy, then that's the managers fault for letting them get away with it.

[McClarky]

I think everyone is agreed we should be looking for a midfilder who can provide defensive cover, put his foot in, pass the ball accurately and get forward to score the odd goal. Where is Tugay now?

[AJW]

the popularity of a 3 man midfield is where the Def midfielder came into play , the best midfielders are those who can play in a 2 or a 3 e.g. Gerrard , Roy Keane , both incidently as good as defending as they are attacking

[ABBEY]

Thanks Derek

[AJW]

the popularity of a 3 man midfield is where the Def midfielder came into play , the best midfielders are those who can play in a 2 or a 3 e.g. Gerrard , Roy Keane , both incidently as good as defending as they are attacking. Those who perform better in a 3 man midfield are those who arn't good enough for a 2 man

[EgyptianPete]

Are you new here?

Heh Heh nice one

[beanie]

the popularity of a 3 man midfield is where the Def midfielder came into play , the best midfielders are those who can play in a 2 or a 3 e.g. Gerrard , Roy Keane , both incidently as good as defending as they are attacking. Those who perform better in a 3 man midfield are those who arn't good enough for a 2 man

Hmmm i disagree it's all about tactics. I'd say Xavi Busquets and Iniesta are good enough to play in a two man midfield but they perform better in a three as it suits there game. but then maybe i'm wrong and they would just fall apart in a two man mid.

[JAL]

If you had a midfielder who was a quick, box to box workhorse, who scored goals and got back in position to defend well, not only would he be no where near Rovers, he'd be worth an absolute fortune.

The game has moved on, it's faster. I would imagine that players are a lot fitter these days than they were back in the day due to the increased involvement of sports science etc.

Players won't be able to bomb forward and then get back in time in order to break up a counter attack. It just won't happen.

Even Man Utd have defensive/attacking midfielders in their squad. Not really sure what the gripe is with regards to defensive mids is, last season we seriously lacked a player who would stick the boot in and crunch some poor sucker in the middle of the park (within the laws of the game )

It didnt look that fast last season in the championship, plus there was loads of mistakes being made by the players outhere. But hey, if people want to play with a defensive midfielder in a poor division then fine. Should have added that if the defenders cant stand alone and defend well, then maybe they need replacing if they need that extra protection.

Also it should be interesting to see if DJ and Best defend from the front for the team after GB's comments about how the team should operate.