[Archived] A Taste of Things to Come

[Salgado Is A Hero]

I'd understand if the Prem had the likes of Leeds and the Sheffield clubs in it but it doesn't, there are plenty of smaller teams with no real history and without massive crowds. And have gotten there without significant investment.

Wigan just spent 8 years there. They came mid-table under Bruce I think.

[BlueMonday]

Happy is not a term I use where Venkys decisions are concerned. Resigned is more where I'm at.

[Stuart]

I'd understand if the Prem had the likes of Leeds and the Sheffield clubs in it but it doesn't, there are plenty of smaller teams with no real history and without massive crowds. And have gotten there without significant investment.

Wigan just spent 8 years there. They came mid-table under Bruce I think.

Wigan = Whelan. FFP could well mean they return to their previous guise too. A great example though of a team punching well above its weight. (Where have I heard that term before?).

In fact, we used to be proud that we were punching above our weight. But we were above our weight.

These smaller teams you are talking about. Could you name them and how long they have been in the PL consecutively?

Next year, there will be one town team in the PL (unless Watford who ironically cheated the system can make it two). Maybe just an anomaly but it seems that the FA et al want to make sure that is the norm. Our chance to be into that "locked in" bubble was thrown away last season and has probably been done again by the level of manager signed and the types of players we are looking at.

The Championship is an odd league which is so tight that it can throw up anomalies like Burnley and Blackpool occasionally. However, once they are there, they get mullered. Our team last season would have done the same if it had been in the PL.

[philipl]

Rovers may be a small town club but we have operated at the top level of English football for all but about 40 of our near 140 years of existence. We are from the area which brought football to the masses and is still one of the biggest hotbeds of football in the world. We are right to expect better.

Exactly.

Had enough of Blackburnians doing themselves down.

[Stuart]

Some folks are starting to sound like Steve Kean.

"Think positive and everything will be alright".

[philipl]

Things are far from alright but this we are now at our level kean is defeatism pure and simple.

Are Watford or Palace about to find their level???

[rigger]

North West of England I'm talking about. Name a bigger hotbed.

North East England, South East England, Midlands

[dave birch]

North East England, South East England, Midlands

Not a patch on the North West, the birthplace of the football league along with (to a lsser extent) the Midlands.

It could be argued that the rightful place of many North West teams is in the higher echelons of the football league. If it were down purely to history, then probably half the Prem would be from the NW.

Don't run down the likes of the Rovers/Burnley/Bolton. They are great clubs, with a proud history behind each one.

[Parsonblue]

Surely if we're discussing the term natural we should be discussing it across the whole of it's evolution?

Historically we're in the top 10 ten most successful teams ever. So surely Jack was really just returning us to our 'natural' level.

Aye that's how I'm looking at it.

Sadly Maj, the majority of that historical success came before the First World War. Until Jack arrived we had one F.A. Cup win (1928), a Second Division Championship (1938-39), a Third Division title (1974-75) and a Full Members Cup win (1986-87) in terms of winning silverware.

As regards the north west being a hotbed of football there is no doubt it is. However, as we saw in the sixties, large numbers of potential Rovers fans simply opted to follow the clubs in Manchester and Liverpool rather than a Rovers team that had fallen on hard times. Simply look at the average attendance figures during the period from 1966 to 1992 to see the support we could muster. Between 1980-81 and 1991-92 we only topped a ten thousand seasonal average on two occasions and one of those was 1991-92 when we won promotion in the play-offs when Jack was in control. Even then the average attendance that season was just 13,245.

Stating facts is not running down the likes of the Rovers/Burnley/Preston/Bolton etc. The north west has some great clubs each with it's own hardcore of support and a wonderful and unique history. Sadly, over the past 50 years or so that support has dwindled and the growth of the 'Big City Super Clubs' has made the chances of winning things much more difficult for every other club. It's the reason why Wigan winning the Cup was a cause for celebration but, of course, their relegation saw the last of the small north west clubs ejected from the Premier League.

[eire3382]

All this talk of history is pointless when we are considering our future.

Yes in the past the club had/has a history to be very proud of but for the most part during those periods we were run by men who knew what it took to achieve great things.

We now are controlled by clowns and crooks. The only aspect of history I am interested in right now is our owners learning from the last few years but thats never going to happen.

History does repeat itself but in our case we will keep repeating the last 3 years until big changes are made.

[Majiball]

Some folks are starting to sound like Steve Kean.

"Think positive and everything will be alright".

Soap, mouth, wash!

Sadly Maj, the majority of that historical success came before the First World War. Until Jack arrived we had one F.A. Cup win (1928), a Second Division Championship (1938-39), a Third Division title (1974-75) and a Full Members Cup win (1986-87) in terms of winning silverware.

As regards the north west being a hotbed of football there is no doubt it is. However, as we saw in the sixties, large numbers of potential Rovers fans simply opted to follow the clubs in Manchester and Liverpool rather than a Rovers team that had fallen on hard times. Simply look at the average attendance figures during the period from 1966 to 1992 to see the support we could muster. Between 1980-81 and 1991-92 we only topped a ten thousand seasonal average on two occasions and one of those was 1991-92 when we won promotion in the play-offs when Jack was in control. Even then the average attendance that season was just 13,245.

Stating facts is not running down the likes of the Rovers/Burnley/Preston/Bolton etc. The north west has some great clubs each with it's own hardcore of support and a wonderful and unique history. Sadly, over the past 50 years or so that support has dwindled and the growth of the 'Big City Super Clubs' has made the chances of winning things much more difficult for every other club. It's the reason why Wigan winning the Cup was a cause for celebration but, of course, their relegation saw the last of the small north west clubs ejected from the Premier League.

Logic is a wonderful tool but for this one I'll be using the ostrich defence.

[Stuart]

Sadly Maj, the majority of that historical success came before the First World War. Until Jack arrived we had one F.A. Cup win (1928), a Second Division Championship (1938-39), a Third Division title (1974-75) and a Full Members Cup win (1986-87) in terms of winning silverware.

As regards the north west being a hotbed of football there is no doubt it is. However, as we saw in the sixties, large numbers of potential Rovers fans simply opted to follow the clubs in Manchester and Liverpool rather than a Rovers team that had fallen on hard times. Simply look at the average attendance figures during the period from 1966 to 1992 to see the support we could muster. Between 1980-81 and 1991-92 we only topped a ten thousand seasonal average on two occasions and one of those was 1991-92 when we won promotion in the play-offs when Jack was in control. Even then the average attendance that season was just 13,245.

Stating facts is not running down the likes of the Rovers/Burnley/Preston/Bolton etc. The north west has some great clubs each with it's own hardcore of support and a wonderful and unique history. Sadly, over the past 50 years or so that support has dwindled and the growth of the 'Big City Super Clubs' has made the chances of winning things much more difficult for every other club. It's the reason why Wigan winning the Cup was a cause for celebration but, of course, their relegation saw the last of the small north west clubs ejected from the Premier League.

Great post, PB.

[jim mk2]

Rovers may be a small town club but we have operated at the top level of English football for all but about 40 of our near 140 years of existence. We are from the area which brought football to the masses and is still one of the biggest hotbeds of football in the world. We are right to expect better.

I disagree we have a right to do better because no one has a right to success but we can certainly do better than we are at present and there is no reason why we should shrug our shoulders and accept our lot just because Venky's have screwed up. Rovers have shown over the past 10 years how a medium-sized club can be run succesfully in the top flight.

North East England, South East England, Midlands

Lancashire is the home of English professional football and is the country's biggest football hotbed. Apart from the North east the rest don't come near.

[Salgado Is A Hero]

Wigan = Whelan. FFP could well mean they return to their previous guise too. A great example though of a team punching well above its weight. (Where have I heard that term before?).

In fact, we used to be proud that we were punching above our weight. But we were above our weight.

These smaller teams you are talking about. Could you name them and how long they have been in the PL consecutively?

Next year, there will be one town team in the PL (unless Watford who ironically cheated the system can make it two). Maybe just an anomaly but it seems that the FA et al want to make sure that is the norm. Our chance to be into that "locked in" bubble was thrown away last season and has probably been done again by the level of manager signed and the types of players we are looking at.

The Championship is an odd league which is so tight that it can throw up anomalies like Burnley and Blackpool occasionally. However, once they are there, they get mullered. Our team last season would have done the same if it had been in the PL.

There'll be ways of getting around FFP I'm sure.

Ok, Swansea, Norwich, QPR, Hull, even Palace or Watford, they're from cities but not all city clubs can be grouped together in that respect. We can average over 20,000 in the prem, similar or more than some of them.

Bolton just did 11 years.

I can't remember a decent team going down. People could say Wigan this year but they're defending was awful. There's usually at least 5 teams that struggle and it's not like it's preposterous for a smaller team to stay up for a while.

Remember there's the new tv deal to consider. We could get there and stay there for the foreseeable future without significant investment. I'd argue quite a few clubs could do the same.

Blackpool went down on the final day, didn't imo have a particularly good manager who refused to change his tactics. Burnley probably would have done better if they had kept hold of Coyle and they had the worst goalkeeper I've ever seen.

[Athlete]

anyone really think the likes of Abromivich will take any notice of the FFP....just look at PSG + Monaco spending at the moment

[Amo]

The FFP is a farce. There's too many loopholes for the game's Fat Cats to milk the game dry.

[TBTF]

I disagree we have a right to do better because no one has a right to success but we can certainly do better than we are at present and there is no reason why we should shrug our shoulders and accept our lot just because Venky's have screwed up. Rovers have shown over the past 10 years how a medium-sized club can be run succesfully in the top flight.

Its the unsolicited fast train to oblivion with the accelerator pressed down that really hurts.We all know that teams like us have been defying the laws of gravity for ages and it was only a matter of time before it caught up with us.But self destruction has brought this to a far quicker end than it ever should have-and its a brave man who thinks the decline has been arrested.

Lancashire is the home of English professional football and is the country's biggest football hotbed. Apart from the North east the rest don't come near.

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

Had enough of Blackburnians doing themselves down.

Sadly an unwelcome trait to this area for whatever reason.

[yoda]

Sadly an unwelcome trait to this area for whatever reason.

Stockholm syndrome

[thenodrog]

Exactly.

Had enough of Blackburnians doing themselves down.

Says the man who left for the bright lights of London and the sun kissed island of Malta years ago and would need to consult a map to find Ewood Park from the M65.

[joey_big_nose]

So you can't find an counter-argument against my logic? That's fine, I didn't expect you to.

There is no way we would have got what we did without Jack's money. None of it. Hell, it's why half of football are bitter with envy against us!

Jim has made a completely fair point that Norwich, Swansea, Palace, Southampton, Burnley, Blackpool etc. have all got up into the prem without spending much money. Swansea for one look like they will stick.

It can be done.

[thenodrog]

All this talk of history is pointless when we are considering our future.

Yes in the past the club had/has a history to be very proud of but for the most part during those periods we were run by men who knew what it took to achieve great things.

.... and with a level playing field. Post the rule changes since the sixties and those in the pipeline it certainly isn't level anymore. It's a hopeless task and one that will probably see 92 clubs become very much fewer in the not too distant future.

I disagree we have a right to do better because no one has a right to success but we can certainly do better than we are at present and there is no reason why we should shrug our shoulders and accept our lot just because Venky's have screwed up. Rovers have shown over the past 10 years how a medium-sized club can be run succesfully in the top flight.

Lancashire is the home of English professional football and is the country's biggest football hotbed. Apart from the North east the rest don't come near.

I'd argue about the North East. It's a warm bed imo rather than a hot one. Huge hinterland of support with two biggish clubs, a medium sized one and a couple of minnows. They've won sweet FA between them since time began compared to the North West clubs.

Jim has made a completely fair point that Norwich, Swansea, Palace, Southampton, Burnley, Blackpool etc. have all got up into the prem without spending much money. Swansea for one look like they will stick.

It can be done.

Maybe on the bounce with plenty of parachute payments available and the squad taking a massive pay cut ..... but we spewed that didn't we? We don't have a hope in hell of getting back to the Prem, in fact if anybody wants a bet with me then I've £100 says the next Division we'll be in will be the 1st Div.

[Stuart]

Jim has made a completely fair point that Norwich, Swansea, Palace, Southampton, Burnley, Blackpool etc. have all got up into the prem without spending much money. Swansea for one look like they will stick.

It can be done.

It's not a fair point at all. You can't compare Blackburn with city clubs. Burnley and Blackpool fluked it and have both fallen back to where their fans expect to be.

It's delusion of Newcastle-fan-proportions to think that the last 20 years would have happened without Jack Walker. That's why everyone is so gutted at the crass, arrogant way it has been thrown away - because it is so hard to get there for a club like ours. We have been spoiled completely as fans.

Can't you see that the league structure is shifting with city clubs now rising to the top? This is because clubs are now adjusting to cope with FFP rules. There seems to be some denial about this. Hull and Palace will start as favourites for the drop - let's see how they do.

I want Rovers to return to punching above their weight but sadly I don't think it will happen any time soon. That's exactly what it would be though - punching above our weight. People use to celebrate this term as a poke in the eye to the big clubs. Now we have been relegated some folks think we 'deserve' to be in the top flight. I guess people have to adjust at their own speed.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

It's not a fair point at all. You can't compare Blackburn with city clubs. Burnley and Blackpool fluked it and have both fallen back to where their fans expect to be.

It's delusion of Newcastle-fan-proportions to think that the last 20 years would have happened without Jack Walker. That's why everyone is so gutted at the crass, arrogant way it has been thrown away - because it is so hard to get there for a club like ours. We have been spoiled completely as fans.

Can't you see that the league structure is shifting with city clubs now rising to the top? This is because clubs are now adjusting to cope with FFP rules. There seems to be some denial about this. Hull and Palace will start as favourites for the drop - let's see how they do.

I want Rovers to return to punching above their weight but sadly I don't think it will happen any time soon. That's exactly what it would be though - punching above our weight. People use to celebrate this term as a poke in the eye to the big clubs. Now we have been relegated some folks think we 'deserve' to be in the top flight. I guess people have to adjust at their own speed.

+1

For years in the PL most of our fans rolled out the phrase "punching above our weight" but I'm starting to wonder how many sincerely meant it and how many just said it for the sake of it. The demand from many for a better style of football than Allardyce was providing was completely at odds with the concept that we were lucky just to be in the PL, so given how many fans complained under him I suppose that was a strong indication that many felt an entitlement to be at that level, an entitlement that has little basis in reality.

It was very striking to me during the Palace-Watford yesterday when the commentator said Palace have four 1-season stays in the PL and Watford have two 1-season stays. Thats what usually happens to clubs who can't even average 20,000 in the Championship, they go up, then they come straight back down. And thats probably what'll happen to us as well when we do get promoted again. What we've lost, stable PL status, will now be almost impossible to recover.

[thenodrog]

If Howard Gayle had not missed that pen and George Courtney had not invented one for Palace then we would have found out how a small town club with no money would have fared in the top Division wouldn't we? Jack may never have got involved! Even if that had happened the financial gap in the late 80's represented a ditch rather than the chasm which the Premier League has put in place.