Cricket

[wolfie]

That was a great win, wasn't expecting that after the lost day.

Stokes unable to finish bowling an over but stayed on the field, a bit of a worry

[Gav]

Shane Warne - Not good enough for Accy?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/53465043

[oldjamfan1]

48 minutes ago, Gav said:

Shane Warne - Not good enough for Accy?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/53465043

I loved Andy Barker's quote "I just looked at him and said: 'Welcome to the Lancashire League. In this part of the world, this is Test cricket.'"

[chaddyrovers]

Anderson just showing his pure class with the wickets. Been good bowling so far

[Ewood Ace]

Just now, Gav said:

Over 7000 runs and over 500 wickets - Let that sink in.

If you fancy being educated further take this to the cricket thread, I'll be happy to oblige. 

I'm more than aware of Botham's international stats and I suspect that I have seen a lot more of him play than you have. What I strongly disagree with, is you calling him one of the greatest cricketers of all time. To me when you say one of the greatest I assume you mean in the top 50 to 100 to ever play the game and Botham is no way near that list. For me he wouldn't even make a list of the top 10 all rounders of all time. Nor would he be close to an all time England 11 for me. For a lot people the nostalgia of some fantastic moments that Botham produced clouds their judgement on him.

 

[Gav]

Lots to go at in that post, but let’s get straight to the point.

Botham is definitely in the top 10 of greatest all rounders of all time, he’s probably in the top 5 which makes him one of the greatest cricketer of all time.

Jimmy Anderson bowling figures are great, he’ll end up as one of the greatest bowlers ever, yet he doesn’t have Botham batting figures.

Over to you.

[47er]

20 minutes ago, Ewood Ace said:

I'm more than aware of Botham's international stats and I suspect that I have seen a lot more of him play than you have. What I strongly disagree with, is you calling him one of the greatest cricketers of all time. To me when you say one of the greatest I assume you mean in the top 50 to 100 to ever play the game and Botham is no way near that list. For me he wouldn't even make a list of the top 10 all rounders of all time. Nor would he be close to an all time England 11 for me. For a lot people the nostalgia of some fantastic moments that Botham produced clouds their judgement on him.

 

No, I'm with Gav on this. Lousy captain but inspirational and brilliant player--a true all-rounder----brilliant fielder, good enough to open the bowling and gifted batsman.

We've been lucky in recent years---Botham, Flintoff and now Stokes. 

Best all-rounder ever though----Garry Sobers 

[Gav]

Jaques Kallis wasn’t bad either, but I agree on Gary Sobers, no question he was the best all rounder.

Edited August 2, 2020 by Gav

[Ewood Ace]

Just now, 47er said:

No, I'm with Gav on this. Lousy captain but inspirational and brilliant player--a true all-rounder----brilliant fielder, good enough to open the bowling and gifted batsman.

We've been lucky in recent years---Botham, Flintoff and now Stokes. 

Best all-rounder ever though----Garry Sobers 

Botham was a very fine player and on his day such as those days at Headingly, Old Trafford and Edgbaston in 1981 he was a very good player. And it is moments like those that conjure up a lot of nostalgia for many people.

But is Botham one of the games all time greatest absolutely not. Just look at his record against the West Indies a side who really were comprised of a number of all time greats, it nothing to write home about. A batting average of just over 21 and a bowling average of just over 35.

 

[Gav]

17 minutes ago, Ewood Ace said:

Botham was a very fine player and on his day such as those days at Headingly, Old Trafford and Edgbaston in 1981 he was a very good player. And it is moments like those that conjure up a lot of nostalgia for many people.

But is Botham one of the games all time greatest absolutely not. Just look at his record against the West Indies a side who really were comprised of a number of all time greats, it nothing to write home about. A batting average of just over 21 and a bowling average of just over 35.

 

Let me get this straight, because he didn't have a superb record against arguably one of the best test sides ever, that puts him down the pecking order for you?

How about him being the fastest player to reach 100 test wickets? or maybe being the fastest player to reach 1000runs/100 wickets, ever?

I could go on.....

He's a Jimmy Anderson with runs, undoubtedly one of the greatest cricketers to ever play the game, as the cricketing world quite rightly acknowledges. 

 

[Ewood Ace]

4 minutes ago, Gav said:

Let me get this straight, because he didn't have a superb record against arguably one of the best test sides ever, that puts him down the pecking order for you?

 How about him being the fastest player to reach 100 test wickets? or maybe being the fastest player to reach 1000runs/100 wickets, ever?

 I could go on.....

He's a Jimmy Anderson with runs, undoubtedly one of the greatest cricketers to ever play the game, as the cricketing world quite rightly acknowledges. 

 

If you are going to be classed as one of the games greatest then it stands to reason that your record against some of the games greatest is going to be something you are judged on. And his record against that West Indian team was not great. 

I don't know where you have got that he was the fastest to 100 test wickets from but you are wrong on that.

When you say 'undoubtedly one of the greatest cricketers to ever play the game' what are you meaning by that top 5, top 10, top 20?

[Gav]

You’re clutching at straws.

Botham also held the world record for the most test wickets from 86-88.

I’ve been very clear what I mean, he’s without doubt one of the greatest cricketers to ever play the game.

 

[gumboots]

When he was at primary school he could hit the ball so far that the rule was 'If Ian hits a six his side is out' A friend of mine was his PE teacher

[Ewood Ace]

3 minutes ago, Gav said:

You’re clutching at straws.

Botham also held the world record for the most test wickets from 86-88.

I’ve been very clear what I mean, he’s without doubt one of the greatest cricketers to ever play the game.

So would you say he is in the greatest 30 players to ever play the game? I'm trying to establish how high or low as the case may be your bar is to be classed as one of the greatest cricketers to ever play the game.

 

[Gav]

He’s in the top 5 greatest all rounders to ever play the game in my opinion.

[Ewood Ace]

Just now, Gav said:

He’s in the top 5 greatest all rounders to ever play the game in my opinion.

Really? So you would have above at least 2 of Sobers, Kallis, Miller, Grace, Rhodes & Imran Khan. That's just naming a few who I would place above him as an all rounders. I'd also say Stokes is already a far better player than Botham ever was.

[Gav]

Let’s just you’re right for a minute and Botham is in the top 10 greatest all rounders to have ever played the game, so since 1880, that still qualifies him as one of the greatest cricketers ever to play the game doesn’t it?

 

[Ewood Ace]

Just now, Gav said:

Let’s just you’re right for a minute and Botham is in the top 10 greatest all rounders to have ever played the game, so since 1880, that still qualifies him as one of the greatest cricketers ever to play the game doesn’t it?

  

But I wouldn't say he was in the top 10 allrounders ever. Anyway I suppose it comes down to standards and obviously you have a lower bar than me for what qualifies you as one of the greatest. Personally if you are to be called one of the greatest ever to me that say you are in and around the top 50 or so to ever play the game. But perhaps to you if you are in the top 200 or 300 to ever play the game then you regard them as one of the greatest ever.

[Gav]

I’ll be honest with you EA, I think you’re taking the piss.

Youve offered nothing to support your argument other than to critique mine.

Why isn’t Botham one of the greatest cricketers to play the game?

Edited August 2, 2020 by Gav

[Ewood Ace]

3 minutes ago, Gav said:

I’ll be honest with you EA, I think you’re taking the piss.

Youve offered nothing to support your argument other than to critique mine.

What exactly would you like me offer you? I have already offered you my opinion and my reasons. What more do you want? 

I've said that I.T. Botham was a fine cricketer and on his day he was a very good player but would I put him in the pantheon of greats of the game, no I certainly would not. I told you for me to be regard as one of the greatest to ever play the game I would say you have to be in and around the top 50 players to ever play the game. You still won't say where your bar is set. 

[Riversider28]

Boring............. Time for a change guys.

England v Pakistan at Old Trafford on Wednesday. This should be a much sterner test for England than the Windies. England have named the same 14 man squad as the last test with Zak Crawley, Sam Curran and Mark Wood looking to push for a start.

Unfortunately, it looks at the moment that there is rain likely to affect the first day play, so we may have to win it in 4 days rather than 5.

[oldjamfan1]

My tuppence worth on the Botham argument. He won cricket matches single handedly, often against the odds against our greatest rival, just when we needed him. He would feature in most people’s greatest-ever England team I would imagine. That makes him a great of the game. Sir Vivian Richards knows what a great cricketer is, as does Allan Border. Without Botham I very much doubt there would have been a Freddie Flintoff and maybe not even a Ben Stokes, who are the two most comparable England players to the great man since he retired. 
To suggest Botham isn’t an all-time great all rounder because some modern players have better stats than him is a bit odd to be honest, especially when said poster claims to have seen a lot of him. Botham put bums on seats all over the world. 

[jim mk2]

Calamitous start by England albeit against excellent Pakistan bowling.

Is there an unwritten rule that whoever they're playing, England have to start every series badly? 

[Ewood Ace]

On 02/08/2020 at 22:22, oldjamfan1 said:

My tuppence worth on the Botham argument. He won cricket matches single handedly, often against the odds against our greatest rival, just when we needed him. He would feature in most people’s greatest-ever England team I would imagine.

Certainly wouldn't be in my greatest England team.

On 02/08/2020 at 22:22, oldjamfan1 said:

Sir Vivian Richards knows what a great cricketer is, as does Allan Border. 

So did Harold Larwood. Not only did he play with some of England's and the games greatest ever players but he also played against the greatest ever the has and will ever see and Larwood thought Botham to be overrated. 

On 02/08/2020 at 22:22, oldjamfan1 said:

To suggest Botham isn’t an all-time great all rounder because some modern players have better stats than him is a bit odd to be honest,

Where did I say this. I said he I don't consider Botham to be one the games greatest ever. I said nothing about modern players having better stats Infact of the players I named only one of them played post Botham.

On 02/08/2020 at 22:22, oldjamfan1 said:

especially when said poster claims to have seen a lot of him.

I don't just claim to have, I have. I've been a member at Taunton since before Botham got into the Somerset team.

Edited August 6, 2020 by Ewood Ace

[Ewood Ace]

Root gone now.