[Archived] Ian Tomlinson death

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

Just in case anyone doesn't know, this is regarding the "unlawful killing" of a guy who was trying to walk home past the protests at the G20 summit in 2009. The police told him he'd have to go around, he turned around and started walking off, and was then hit with a baton and shoved to the floor from behind. He then collapsed and died from internal bleeding.

Basically I find the whole thing to be an absolute disgrace. What kind of moronic thugs do the police employ these days? A decent starting salary, a great pension, good opportunity for progression, and the amount of idiots spoiling for a fight that you see in uniform these days is incredible. And then there's the usual closed-ranks lack of accountability, trying to claim it was a heart attack and then forcing the family into a years long campaign to get them to admit wrong-doing. Simply not acceptable in my opinion, there should be forced resignations at senior management level for this.

And then even the killer himself escapes proper justice. The guy commits manslaughter and the only thing that happens to him is he gets sacked.

"Oh welcome home dear"

"Thankyou darling, got some bad news I'm afraid, got sacked today."

"Why?"

"I hit someone and knocked him over and he died."

"Oh well, best get yourself onto TotalJobs."

What a joke.

And finally the way that the only meaningful accountability, a large compensation payment, is no accountability for those actually involved. We, the taxpayers, are stumping up the funding for that. A thuggish prat accidentally kills someone, the Met try to pretend it was an accident, and the only people who pay up is us. Think I might scream the next time some idiot commissioner whinges about cuts to police funding.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

The ' Met have been getting away with murder for years. Nothing new in this case.

[somersetrover]

The ' Met have been gritting away with murder for years. Nothing new in this case.

Absolutely just look at the death of Jean Charles de Menezes, that was a complete cover up. Disgraceful !

[Amo]

The police always sweep these things under the carpet.

Now contrast that to the media attention given to the two policewomen shot in Manchester.

[Jock]

Big hard copper with his riot gear on with all his mates along side him decides to baton an older guy and then shove him to the ground. Total scummy pr!ck who hopefully will get a slap while he's out on his own.

[thenodrog]

I don't want to defend the police BUT I rem a video of this at the time and I don't think Tomlinson was wholly innocent in all this. A very tense situation with the police behind their shields with batons out facing an angry mob and Tomlinson appeared from one side and slouched slowly and either arrogantly of nonchalently with his hands in his pockets across their line. I think he might have been shouted at to get out of the way and ignored the command. If he wasn't drunk then imo he was trying to take the kean. Not the best idea when tensions and adrenaline levels are peaking. Sure the met have 'rolled with it' but I'd have to say that there was an element of contributary negligence about the outcome. If he'd used even a modicum of commen sense and walked another way around he'd be alive today.

[Mike E]

I don't want to defend the police BUT I rem a video of this at the time and I don't think Tomlinson was wholly innocent in all this. A very tense situation with the police behind their shields with batons out facing an angry mob and Tomlinson appeared from one side and slouched slowly and either arrogantly of nonchalently with his hands in his pockets across their line. I think he might have been shouted at to get out of the way and ignored the command. If he wasn't drunk then imo he was trying to take the kean. Not the best idea when tensions and adrenaline levels are peaking. Sure the met have 'rolled with it' but I'd have to say that there was an element of contributary negligence about the outcome. If he'd used even a modicum of commen sense and walked another way around he'd be alive today.

While I agree with the sentiment, cops are trained to use their batons below the waist. To clatter anyone about the head (regardless of the situation) is reckless and even surviving such a blow could be construed as an attempt to kill. Those things are basically baseball bats.

[somersetrover]

I don't want to defend the police BUT I rem a video of this at the time and I don't think Tomlinson was wholly innocent in all this. A very tense situation with the police behind their shields with batons out facing an angry mob and Tomlinson appeared from one side and slouched slowly and either arrogantly of nonchalently with his hands in his pockets across their line. I think he might have been shouted at to get out of the way and ignored the command. If he wasn't drunk then imo he was trying to take the kean. Not the best idea when tensions and adrenaline levels are peaking. Sure the met have 'rolled with it' but I'd have to say that there was an element of contributary negligence about the outcome. If he'd used even a modicum of commen sense and walked another way around he'd be alive today.

Don't think was wholly innocent what rubbish he was a man trying to get home from work. Whether he was drunk or acting nonchalantly it doesn't matter that not illegal and deserving of being smacked with a baton and killed. Also I wonder if you would be so defensive and understanding towards the police if it was a friends or family member of yours killed in that way? I doubt it very much.

[hollowsr]

Can we please not tarnish all Police on the actions of some individuals who are part of the Police. I know some Police on a professional level, no I'm not part of the Police, as in every day life some are great and some aren't.

[adopted scouser]

It was regrettable what happened, but there is more to this incident.

As Gordon quite rightly points out, if he had simply moved on when told to he would be still around today, or maybe not, as he had a serious heart condition.

The police officers on the ground are under severe pressure when told to control a crowd of thousands who have been 'kettled' into confined spaces. Quite often when ludicrously outnumbered (and doing a job many keyboard warriors on here would run away from) they have to fight fire with fire, and are increasingly unable to as under the glare of a million smartphones they run the risk of prosecution, whilst trying to keep the peace. A large percentage of protesters are not little darlings you know.

[Amo]

It was regrettable what happened, but there is more to this incident.

As Gordon quite rightly points out, if he had simply moved on when told to he would be still around today, or maybe not, as he had a serious heart condition.

The police officers on the ground are under severe pressure when told to control a crowd of thousands who have been 'kettled' into confined spaces. Quite often when ludicrously outnumbered (and doing a job many keyboard warriors on here would run away from) they have to fight fire with fire, and are increasingly unable to as under the glare of a million smartphones they run the risk of prosecution, whilst trying to keep the peace. A large percentage of protesters are not little darlings you know.

Sorry but that's victim-blaming nonsense.

So if you got stabbed walking through a rough neighbourhood, it's your fault? If your house got burgled, would it be your fault for having your stuff on display? The same logic applies.

It would be one thing if Tomlinson was bearing down on the coppers, wielding a brick or a broken bottle in his hand. Then you could excuse the police for using reasonable force to take him down. But walking away from them nonchalantly, with his hands in his pockets, is no cause to be violently struck to the ground. The thug-cop had no justification whatsoever for doing what he did. It was manslaughter, pure and simple.

[adopted scouser]

So if you got stabbed walking through a rough neighbourhood, it's your fault? If your house got burgled, would it be your fault for having your stuff on display? The same logic applies.

I wouldn't be your fault but you've increased the liklehood of it happening haven't you ? Would I walk through Whalley Range late at night with an EDL t-shirt on ? If I got thumped it wouldn't be right but it wouldn't be a surprise would it ?

It would be one thing if Tomlinson was bearing down on the coppers, wielding a brick or a broken bottle in his hand. Then you could excuse the police for using reasonable force to take him down. But walking away from them nonchalantly, with his hands in his pockets, is no cause to be violently struck to the ground. The thug-cop had no justification whatsoever for doing what he did. It was manslaughter, pure and simple.

There is no justification for Mr Tomlinson's death, but if you attend large potentially violent demonstrations you take your chances. The officer involved has tried to build bridges with the family, and it wasn't manslaughter as the court decided.

[somersetrover]

I wouldn't be your fault but you've increased the liklehood of it happening haven't you ? Would I walk through Whalley Range late at night with an EDL t-shirt on ? If I got thumped it wouldn't be right but it wouldn't be a surprise would it ?

There is no justification for Mr Tomlinson's death, but if you attend large potentially violent demonstrations you take your chances. The officer involved has tried to build bridges with the family, and it wasn't manslaughter as the court decided.

What an absolutely ridiculous argument, he wasn't wearing an EDL shirt and he wasn't attending the demonstration, he was just a newspaper vendor trying to get home, so you argument is absolutely meaningless. You say there is no justification yet you are trying to justify Harwood's actions in some perverse way. The court decided please it was just another establishment set up, just like with Jean Charles de Menezes's shooting, where no one was ever found guilty of the killing.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

It was regrettable what happened, but there is more to this incident.

As Gordon quite rightly points out, if he had simply moved on when told to he would be still around today, or maybe not, as he had a serious heart condition.

The police officers on the ground are under severe pressure when told to control a crowd of thousands who have been 'kettled' into confined spaces. Quite often when ludicrously outnumbered (and doing a job many keyboard warriors on here would run away from) they have to fight fire with fire, and are increasingly unable to as under the glare of a million smartphones they run the risk of prosecution, whilst trying to keep the peace. A large percentage of protesters are not little darlings you know.

And a large percentage of policemen aren't gallant heroes. How many of these officers sustain serious injuries during violent protests? I never hear of any confined to hospital for months or in intensive care fighting for their lives. Obviously that's great but puts a different picture to one you're trying to paint. For the money and gold-plated pensions coppers are on, I'd stand in a line wearing body armour and stop people getting past me, and be happy to do it. They're not soldiers, its a freakishly rare occasion when one of them is killed, and personally I've encountered too many bullies on power-trips amongst their ranks for them to earn any respect from me.

Regarding your other post, he didn't attend the demonstration, he tried to walk past it. Maybe he'd had a hard day at work, knew nothing about the G20 summit and was very irritated that the police were blocking his route home. That's an understandable reaction in my opinion, he could have gone to see what was going on, asked if it was really necessary, and then turned away upon realising he wasn't getting anywhere. If that's somehow justification for being hit in the back then the UK has become a police state.

[thenodrog]

While I agree with the sentiment, cops are trained to use their batons below the waist. To clatter anyone about the head (regardless of the situation) is reckless and even surviving such a blow could be construed as an attempt to kill. Those things are basically baseball bats.

Just watched it again and the video shows that if the baton made contact it was to the back of his legs mike. This was followed by a shove forward which turned into a fall to the ground worsened in severity because his hands were in his pockets.

Also read a few reports and it appears likely that he was drunk. He was an alcoholic and his breeder of a wife and almost an entire football team of children and stepchildren had kicked him out of their home for his behaviour and habitual drinking and he was described as alternating between sleeping rough on the streets or living in a hostel when he died. Add to that the PM revealed that a contributary factor of his death was cirhossis of the liver.

Rather nauseating to hear that although he'd been kicked out they all thought so much of him.... or am I alone in thinking all that was made up for the sake of the compensation claim?

Overall it doesn't appear that Tomlinson had much going for him and my experiences of alcoholics might suggest that he'd likely be dead now anyway. His life is over and his family have benefitted financially from him in a fashion that they would never have done had he lived. Time to move on.

[somersetrover]

Just watched it again and the video shows that if the baton made contact it was to the back of his legs mike. This was followed by a shove forward which turned into a fall to the ground worsened in severity because his hands were in his pockets.

Also read a few reports and it appears likely that he was drunk. He was an alcoholic and his breeder of a wife and almost an entire football team of children and stepchildren had kicked him out of their home for his behaviour and habitual drinking and he was described as alternating between sleeping rough on the streets or living in a hostel when he died. Add to that the PM revealed that a contributary factor of his death was cirhossis of the liver.

Rather nauseating to hear that although he'd been kicked out they all thought so much of him.... or am I alone in thinking all that was made up for the sake of the compensation claim?

Overall it doesn't appear that Tomlinson had much going for him and my experiences of alcoholics might suggest that he'd likely be dead now anyway. His life is over and his family have benefitted financially from him in a fashion that they would never have done had he lived. Time to move on.

Well its not illegal to have a drink or sleep on the streets or in a hostel and that is not a reason to be killed by a policeman in public in the middle of the day is it. Or perhaps you think it is ? 'Breeder of a wife' what a piece of filth you are, what business is it of your how many kids they have between them and how is that relevant to his death?

[Jeru tha Damaja]

At the very least the actions of the officer were a disproportionate use of force in that situation. It's not like he was facing down a violent protest and the adrenaline got the better of him, there was very little going on from what we can see in videos of the incident. Even if it was a full blown riot, these officers are supposed to be trained to keep their composure in that scenario, not to lash out at the first member of the public who behaves slightly awkwardly.

If he was less than cooperative then it might have owed something to his frustration with having been diverted three times already by the police as he tried to walk home from work. That is only speculation, but it is more relevant to the situation than conjecture about his family life or potential lifespan. As far as that point goes, whether he would have lived one more day, another year or another hundred years doesn't really make much difference, if you do something that directly leads to the end of someone else's life you go to prison, that's the law in this country. Unless you wear a police uniform, apparently.

The inquest found that Simon Harwood's excessive use of force (against a man who wasn't even facing him, let's remember) was the major cause of the death of Ian Tomlinson. Take away the uniform and tell me what the outcome of the trial would have been. Even his own lawyer could only talk about how Harwood didn't intend to kill Tomlinson, well that's why we distinguish between murder and manslaughter, is it not?

While we're on a roll, how about we talk about the number of people who die in police custody. Granted, it is declining, but it's still unacceptable, and I'm ashamed to say that we don't hold the police to account for these incidents.

Where is the outrage for Christopher Alder? A soldier and the victim of an assault who was allowed to drown in a pool of his own blood and vomit while police officers joked and (seemingly) subjected him to racist abuse. 333 deaths, 13 officers charged, 1 conviction. Not good enough.

Before we get to the part where certain members try to cast the victims as being the guilty party, let us keep in mind that people who are arrested are not automatically guilty, and even when they are guilty they do not deserve to die for their crimes. 44% of those who died in police custody between 1994 and 2011 were arrested for public order offences, a decent number of them died as a result of the excessive use of force applied by arresting officers that resulted in asphyxiation.

[jim mk2]

Just watched it again and the video shows that if the baton made contact it was to the back of his legs mike. This was followed by a shove forward which turned into a fall to the ground worsened in severity because his hands were in his pockets.

Also read a few reports and it appears likely that he was drunk. He was an alcoholic and his breeder of a wife and almost an entire football team of children and stepchildren had kicked him out of their home for his behaviour and habitual drinking and he was described as alternating between sleeping rough on the streets or living in a hostel when he died. Add to that the PM revealed that a contributary factor of his death was cirhossis of the liver.

Rather nauseating to hear that although he'd been kicked out they all thought so much of him.... or am I alone in thinking all that was made up for the sake of the compensation claim?

Overall it doesn't appear that Tomlinson had much going for him and my experiences of alcoholics might suggest that he'd likely be dead now anyway. His life is over and his family have benefitted financially from him in a fashion that they would never have done had he lived. Time to move on.

Typical ignoramus response. Perhaps your "breeder of wife" might shed a tear but I can assure you no one else will miss you when you pass on.

[neekoy]

333 deaths, 13 officers charged, 1 conviction. Not good enough.

Between 1990-2011 a total of 980 suspects died in police custody....

This is terrible. I watched the video and they said he had been drinking heavily all day but who gives a @#/? if he was an alcoholic or not, this is the bloody UK, the police should be the highest order of moral behavior.

I wasn't aware of any of these listed cases but it is truly shocking that there are cases of no one being culpable for these crimes.

Drog I am surprised, there is being hardline but your comments are lacking in any form of empathy for the victim who wasn't breaking the law, was clearly not a threat to anyone and was just trying to make his way home

[rock steady]

The ignore button was made for drog. A true ignorant, tiny minded man who will go out of his way to spread his hate.

Just wish there was a way to hide when people quote him.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

The cop involved had plenty of previous form in this respect. He was a thug looking to vent his spleen on whoever got in his way. His conduct on that day is indefensible.

[Mike E]

Typical ignoramus response. Perhaps your "breeder of wife" might shed a tear but I can assure you no one else will miss you when you pass on.

While he has a habit of rubbing people up the wrong way, that's just a nasty thing to say. Stop being such a malicious auld fart.

Theno is making a decent point. By no means do I really agree with him but there is an argument that Ian Tomlinson was being inadvertently provocative.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

A policeman's training should equip him with the ability to withstand " inadvertent provocation". If he can't he's a time bomb waiting to go off. I work in a school, I get plenty of provocation. If I touch a child or swear at a child I will almost certainly be sacked. You need to have self control.

[thenodrog]

Well its not illegal to have a drink or sleep on the streets or in a hostel and that is not a reason to be killed by a policeman in public in the middle of the day is it. Or perhaps you think it is ? 'Breeder of a wife' what a piece of filth you are, what business is it of your how many kids they have between them and how is that relevant to his death?

9 kids to support in London with no real income stream is irresponsible and selfish. I have little time for people who choose to live a parasitical lifestyle by having many more children than they can reasonably support and who do it as an alternative income stream to working.

As to 'what business is it of mine'??? Maybe you should see my tax bill. If I wasn't stumping up for ever increasing welfare payments for others then maybe I'd be able to spend more on my own kids and give them a better start in life!

[thenodrog]

Typical ignoramus response. Perhaps your "breeder of wife" might shed a tear but I can assure you no one else will miss you when you pass on.

My wife is hardly a breeder. We worked on an unselfish replacement policy based on what we could afford at the time. How many kids do you have just as a matter of interest?

Don't know how we'd collect the money but I'd put a significant amount of money on that if we both croaked tomorrow I'd attract a sight more mourners in church than you Jim.

btw did you ever answer me when I asked what you thought you would die of?