[Archived] Jordan Rhodes

[DE.]

That had nothing to do Bowyer then? Because without Bowyers input, we would have been relegated even with £8m worth of striker. (According to most on here).

What have we got for £8m so far?

Come on den, without Rhodes goals last season (achieved despite a revolving door of managers trying to implement their own styles of play) we would have been sunk. Nobody's disputing we overpaid for him, but has he been a success? I think it's incredible to claim he hasn't been.

[den]

Come on den, without Rhodes goals last season (achieved despite a revolving door of managers trying to implement their own styles of play) we would have been sunk. Nobody's disputing we overpaid for him, but has he been a success? I think it's incredible to claim he hasn't been.

It's no good saying signing him has been a success, without saying how. I don't think Venky's signed him to keep us out of the first division, did they? That money could have been used much better. Of course it could also have been wasted. Depends on the manager.

[thenodrog]

To have any hope of promotion we need to bring someone in to play alongside him

He has shown he will score the goals but has also shown he isn't great at the other stuff, play someone to compliment him and we may have the full package.

If we are going to continue to play one up top then maybe another plan is needed!

Difficult to make any signings whatsoever in our position. Not only that but anybody who is any use either won't come or will be madly expensive. As I've said previously much rests on the shoulders of Dunny and Rochina to supply Rhodes . Still nothing wrong with JR putting a decent shift in and contributing a bit outside the box though is there? As it stands outside the box he must be a centre halves dream.

[DE.]

It's no good saying signing him has been a success, without saying how.

He's a striker, he scores tons of goals. Without his goals last season we would have gone down - unless you believe an uninjured Leon Best would have kept us up. I'm not sure how this doesn't constitute success to you.

[RevidgeBlue]

That had nothing to do Bowyer then? Because without Bowyers input, we would have been relegated even with £8m worth of striker. (According to most on here).

What have we got for £8m + huge contract, so far?

36 goals in 58 appearances or what ever it is. And if we sell in my view we will at worst get our money back. A very good return imo.

By comparison, what have we got for the 3m + 33k p.w. spent on Best? Or whatever was spent on Campbell? Or numerous others?

[thenodrog]

This is the question, do you have a big centre forward to win the headers, and make the ball stick up top with a view to using Rhodes to run on to flick-ons and knock downs?

Or...

Do you have a player to play in the hole behind him and look to play the ball through the gaps to get Rhodes into a shooting position?

Either way, we have 1 of each currently in the squad, Leon Best (attitude stinks, we know, but he should be smashing it at this level, he did for Newcastle!), or Ruben Rochina (when fit, he will lead defences in this division a merry dance).

We need to address the issues in midfield, we certainly need a player who can impose himself on the game, put himself about and help us win/retain possession, this way, we can look to let the attackers do what they do... We already have some good players in the squad, but if they can figure out who to play to get the best out of Rhodes on a consistent basis, in a system that suits the rest of the team then we might have a better chance.

Nothing wrong with having options depending on the opposition and venue is there?

[DE.]

36 goals in 58 appearances or what ever it is. And if we sell in my view we will at worst get our money back. A very good return imo.

By comparison, what have we got for the 3m + 33k p.w. spent on Best? Or whatever was spent on Campbell? Or numerous others?

Despite his "barren spell" he's scored 10 goals in 15 games this season. Not bad for a failure.

[den]

He's a striker, he scores tons of goals. Without his goals last season we would have gone down - unless you believe an uninjured Leon Best would have kept us up. I'm not sure how this doesn't constitute success to you.

He would have scored tons of goals if he'd stayed at Huddersfield. For Rhodes himself, he's had a good season and a half. For rovers as a club, £60m in debt, it's been wasted money so far. We should have been a much better side than we currently are. £8m to be mid table Championship?

There you go - a bit of an alternative view for everyone.

Oh, and no, I don't accept that his goals alone kept us up. According to most fans on here, Bowyer kept us up. The truth about that, is that quite a few people contributed to the last gasp effort that kept us up.

[DE.]

Take away the goals Rhodes scored and we go down, simple as that. He was player of the season for a reason, den, even if you wouldn't have voted for him.

[Tom]

Take away the goals Rhodes scored and we go down, simple as that. He was player of the season for a reason, den, even if you wouldn't have voted for him.

Take away the worst player in the starting line up and we also go down

Its a daft argument as if you take one player away the team changes and may do better or (more likely) worse for that change

There is No 'simple as that' even if it is more likely than not that it would have been the case

[thenodrog]

For those who can rem Shearer was on 19 goals (I think) the first season he was here when he got his cruciate torn against Leeds in mid Dec. (that was when he was at his unbelievable best). Gally and Newell stepped up to the plate for the rest of the season, scored just as prolifically between them and I believe that we still ended up top scorers that season in the Prem ....... despite as ever getting jewed out of a European place by a dodgy ref at Old Trafford's last match celebration party .

[Amo]

The reason we're a mid-table Championship club who almost got relegated last year isn't because we overpaid for Rhodes. It's because the rest of the summer signings (Murphy, Etuhu, Best, Portugal's Z-team et al.) were either injured, couldn't be assed, or just genuinely crap. Throw in a revolving door of one bad manager after another and the board-room hi-jinks with Shebby & Shagnew, and it all makes sense.

[DE.]

Take away the worst player in the starting line up and we also go down

Would surely depend who we replaced him with?

For those who can rem Shearer was on 19 goals I think the first season he was here when he got his cruciate torn against Leeds before Christmas. (that was when he was at his unbelievable best). Gally and Newell stepped up to the plate for the rest of the season, scored plenty and I believe that we still ended up top scorers that season in the Prem despite getting jewed out of a European place by a dodgy ref at Old Trafford's last match celebration party .

Bit of a class difference between Newell/Gally and the likes of Best and Goodwillie.

[den]

I get the impression that you are really struggling to justify spending all that money on him DE. For such a top player, the best we get is "he kept us up".

He didn't keep us up on his own last season and the £8m isn't doing much for us this season either. The deal, so far isn't working out as Venky's intended. I challenge anyone to show differently.

And yes, he's still a fabulous finisher in the box.

[Tom]

Would surely depend who we replaced him with?

Exactly the point I'm making

If Rhodes didn't play then someone else would have, would they have scored as many? Almost certainly not, but there is nothing certain in football about the way we would have lined up and fared

Anyway I feel I've stated my position enough and its getting boring for everyone if I repeat myself much more but one last time, I feel he's our best asset but feel the first priority should be to play someone to highlight his strengths and negate his weaknesses or failing that and we continue with him isolated then he will have to do things he's not doing now which may be at the detriment to the teams attacking forte but boost us defensively

Its a quandary that Bowyer faces but if he fancies himself as a manager he has to prove his worth and use the team to their best ability, so far something he is struggling a bit with

[RevidgeBlue]

He can't play that game. That's the problem.

It's only a problem if you want to hoof the ball up 40 or 50 yards to a lone striker and expect him to hold the ball up or flick it off as opposed to winning and retaining possession through midfield.

[DE.]

I get the impression that you are really struggling to justify spending all that money on him DE. For such a top player, the best we get is "he kept us up".

He didn't keep us up on his own last season and the £8m isn't doing much for us this season either. The deal, so far isn't working out as Venky's intended. I challenge anyone to show differently.

And yes, he's still a fabulous finisher in the box.

I've already admitted we overpaid for him, so I'm not trying to justify the fee itself. All I'm saying is he's still been a success here, regardless of his fee, and if 10 goals in 15 games "isn't doing much" this season then I don't know what you want. Two goals a game? Three goals a game? To do the job of the midfield and defence as well as his own role?

Exactly the point I'm making

If Rhodes didn't play then someone else would have, would they have scored as many? Almost certainly not, but there is nothing certain in football about the way we would have lined up and fared

We bought Rhodes because Best got injured, so it would have been Leon Best. I don't think much more needs to be said there, does it?

[RevidgeBlue]

I don't recall Simon ever being used as a lone striker Rev. He always admitted that the players he played alongside him helped to create space for him. Andy Crawford, John Lowey, Norman Bell, Chris Thompson, Jimmy Quinn, Steve Archibald, Howard Gayle, Andy Kennedy, Frank Stapleton all played alongside and complimented him in various ways.

Following on from that then PB, is the problem more one of a lack of a competent partner for JR than any perceived weaknesses in his own game?

[LeChuck]

Take away the goals Rhodes scored and we go down, simple as that. He was player of the season for a reason, den, even if you wouldn't have voted for him.

You're completely over-simplifying the situation. It's not as simple as deducting the goals Rhodes scored.

Rhodes plays in such a way that he creates nothing for his team mates. He takes up all the goal scoring positions when the ball comes into the box. You can't have two strikers taking up the same positions. If Rhodes is out of the team then Best/Campbell become the main striker. Both do more for the team so it's likely that King and the rest of the midfielders would score more too.

One of the reasons our other strikers look terrible is because Rhodes is impossible for a striker to play with unless Rochina/Dunn type that is happy to feed him. Campbell has shown repeatedly he's a very good goal scorer at this level. He hit 10 in 18 for Ipswich last season when he was the main guy. He hasn't lost that, he just can't get in the goal scoring positions because that's what Rhodes does.

If you want proof then look at Burnley. By your theory Burnley should be on course for relegation because they no longer have Charlie Austin's goals. But it's not that simple. Changing one player in a key position changes the whole dynamic of the team.

Personally I think we would have been fine without Rhodes. We would have gotten more points in 25 ish games he didn't score in, because we effectively have 10 men when he's not scoring.

[thenodrog]

It's only a problem if you want to hoof the ball up 40 or 50 yards to a lone striker and expect him to hold the ball up or flick it off as opposed to winning and retaining possession through midfield.

Here's some of those horrible hoofballs Simon. Tell me whats wrong with these....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KbICzi78no

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHkEngoWgoU

No good being sniffy about passing football when getting rid of the safest pair of hands in the business on the basis that the 'fans' wanted good football left us with Steve Kean and oh so predictable relegation. Also no such thing as long ball / short ball / hoofball, there are good balls and bad ones plain and simple.

[DE.]

You're completely over-simplifying the situation. It's not as simple as deducting the goals Rhodes scored.

Or maybe you're overcomplicating the situation.

As for Burnley, they have two very able strikers leading their line. They also don't have a gaping hole in the middle of the park, nor a defence that leaks goals for fun.

We have Leon Best to lead the line, a midfield that's useless when Cairney and Evans aren't playing together and a defence that bloody loves letting the opposition score. They can't get enough of it.

I think we have many problems to solve before thinking about Jordan.

[Mike E]

Or maybe you're overcomplicating the situation.

As for Burnley, they have two very able strikers leading their line. They also don't have a gaping hole in the middle of the park, nor a defence that leaks goals for fun.

We have Leon Best to lead the line, a midfield that's useless when Cairney and Evans aren't playing together and a defence that bloody loves letting the opposition score. They can't get enough of it.

I think we have many problems to solve before thinking about Jordan.

What makes you think a potential 442 with Best and Campbell isn't 'able'? Just going roughly on what Burnley have done, but with our players.

[hi-jaq]

Nothing wrong with having options depending on the opposition and venue is there?

No... we need options, but I think we need to find out which one suits Rhodes the best.

I'd like to see us try Leon Best up there with him, but rather than trying to play him as a number 10, get him in amongst the centre halves, put himself about, be the target man!

Someone said that Best isn't that big, tell you what... he might not be the tallest, but he's one of the strongest players we have... I remember when he played for Newcastle against Rovers, and both Samba and Nelsen (might have been Givet), tried, but he won most headers and they got nothing from him... he absolutely bossed them, and scored I think???

I'm not saying he's the answer, but we need to play him as a proper centre forward, and get Rhodes playing off him, just trying to find space and sniff out opportunities.

Just look at Vokes and Ings... big target man, little hard working finisher... they've played the best part of 2 seasons in the same squad and have forged a real understanding.

Both are scoring, Dingles are near the top of the league... and they don't have any real stand out midfielders or defenders (maybe Trippier, but he's no better than Todd Kane!)

[DE.]

What makes you think a potential 442 with Best and Campbell isn't 'able'? Just going roughly on what Burnley have done, but with our players.

Kind of a big 'but' there, isn't it pol?

Best is a sulking donkey, DJ hasn't proven anything here yet and our midfield would get even more torn to shreds playing a 4-4-2 than already occurs. The defence wouldn't know what had hit them.

Other than that though, yeah, why not?

[LeChuck]

Or maybe you're overcomplicating the situation.

As for Burnley, they have two very able strikers leading their line. They also don't have a gaping hole in the middle of the park, nor a defence that leaks goals for fun.

We have Leon Best to lead the line, a midfield that's useless when Cairney and Evans aren't playing together and a defence that bloody loves letting the opposition score. They can't get enough of it.

I think we have many problems to solve before thinking about Jordan

Sam Vokes scored 4 goals in 46 games last year. Suddenly this year he's playing better because the team is no longer set up to simply feed Austin. Same with Ings.

I think we would be exactly the same. Best is a good striker if utilised properly. Campbell scores goals at this level if given chances.

Our midfield aren't helped by having Rhodes up front. He offers no out ball whatsoever. This is fine when we're playing well and creating chances. But that won't happen most of the time. A different striker would totally alter the dynamic of the midfield. I bet King would be more threatening with a front man that could bring runners into the game (a bit like Yakubu used to).