[Archived] England Decline Must End

[neekoy]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/greg-dyke-famously-saved-tv-am-2252112

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2411873/Youll-know-foreign-coaches-Greg-You-hired-Germany.html

I am no of-ay with the EU rules on this but surely they could be changed just in reference to football?

Two non EU players + 5 non home country players to a maximum of 23 man squad? The constantly talk about not wanting to kill the goose that lays the golden egg but you could pick probably 20 or so "foreign" players in the BPL that are truly increasing the quality of play.

Consider that the PFA teams of 12-13 in the Championship and below are dominated by Home Nation players there has to be some room to create rules which allow that quality to come into the BPL

This should be a blanket FIFA policy on all clubs in the world.

[Audax]

I use to go through the starting squads of games ever so often to size up the problem, found the problem of "too many foreigners" seemed to have died down some, clubs like Stoke, Aston Villa or Sunderland and others had fielded starting selections often near 90% home nations. But looking at below, it looks like the problem has crept up "some" again, the Home Nations (including Ireland Republic) players starting:

MUFC 6 home nations , CFC 4 (Monday, Aug. 26)

Last weekend:

City 2, Hull 7

Norwich 6 Southampton 5

Cardiff 8 Everton 5

Newcastle, 0 ( http://uk.soccerway.com/matches/2013/08/31/england/premier-league/newcastle-united-football-club/fulham-football-club/1483483/?ICID=PL_MS_05 ) they are an offender alright here, Fulham 5

WHU 6 Stoke 5

Palace 6 Sunderland 6

Liverpool 4 Man Utd. 7

West Brom 7 Swansea 4

Arsenal 5 Tottenham 4

All data from soccerway.com , this is a rough count.

Newcastle is in fact a heavily French club at the moment. That surprises me.

FWIW.

Still, looking at the data, Cardiff leads with 8, 3 clubs, Man Utd., WBA and Hull City with 7, those aren't too bad of figures, just in that, maybe it's slightly better than a few years ago.

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I'd go along with the rule, I use to not think that way.

The only thing is it would help the National Teams, right? Scotland I think has been using League one players in their team.

Still, to me, foreigners, even without naming certain countries often don't seem exactly like foreigners anymore but they certainly are in choosing a national team. Netherlands, New Zealand, Jamaica hardly seem like they are producing foreign players in this day and age but I suppose they are.

The World Cup likewise, I believe has diminished some from the way it was when someone like Argentina or Brazil would play, one would generally not be familiar with their players. Now often, we already know who are on the teams playing.

That is one plus about the Barclay's Premier League is that they seem to usually have bragging rights of having the most "World Cup Players" playing in the league though I admit that isn't all that important. Still an indicator of quality but you are right, it could be narrowed down, just like you say.

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And so the clubs being effected would generally be the leader teams however, I see Arsenal even fielded 5 home nations players, I remember how they use to be criticised for having hardly any.

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I use to check out these stats, I'm almost positive Man City at times with Mancini played many more than 2 home nations players as indicated in their last game. Man City in fact, did fairly well at times in this category.

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So these are random stats to just pick out some games but still, useful to me.

[Audax]

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football/news/greg-dyke-famously-saved-tv-am-2252112

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2411873/Youll-know-foreign-coaches-Greg-You-hired-Germany.html

I am no of-ay with the EU rules on this but surely they could be changed just in reference to football?

Two non EU players + 5 non home country players to a maximum of 23 man squad? The constantly talk about not wanting to kill the goose that lays the golden egg but you could pick probably 20 or so "foreign" players in the BPL that are truly increasing the quality of play.

Consider that the PFA teams of 12-13 in the Championship and below are dominated by Home Nation players there has to be some room to create rules which allow that quality to come into the BPL

This should be a blanket FIFA policy on all clubs in the world.

I thought some countries had rules and the way it worked was at any time on the pitch, a number of the players had to be from the native country, like say 7 of the players on the pitch would have to be from the home country.

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The only problem with some of this I see is that pro-football is indeed an escape for some in poorer countries, I'd always think of countries like Nigeria, Ivory Coast, they've produced a number of top players but would probably be sending a lot fewer with these kinds of rules. Lots of Brazilians play in Europe, Portugal, Spain and Italy leading.

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I can go on about this, sorry, I've looked at it a lot, let's not forget when so often, players from the North like when Darren Bent played for Sunderland are not chosen to play for England and people often allege the bias for the London and bigger clubs. That's another problem.

And England fell flat on their face in South Africa and were the only country not to pick their leading scorer. Think they deserved it too.

[neekoy]

I agree but the fact a country is extremely poor should not be a reason to keep the rules the same way. How fantastic was it to watch the likes of Ginola, Zola, Klinsmann, Cantona, Henry and Bergkamp play, truely World Class players that set the PL alight yet now you have Newcastle running out names like Marveaux and Gouffran who haven't even represented their countries are Senior level and it is not like they are once in a generation players like Ronaldo either.

It needs to be a global blanket policy though at all levels of pro football.

[Joar]

I think in general there should be more centralization when it comes to football rules. A global set of rules with minor tweaks at national level to abide national laws, not just for home grown players, but also economic frame works (e.g. maximum individual wage set globally, or possibly maximum total wage bill, to stop/decrees the spiraling cash madness of the football world), maybe revised transfer rules, ownership rules and probably much more.

The problem is corruption/greed/lobbying runs high all the way through the system in pretty much all levels, so it would not likely be the right set of rules implemented in the end.

I just wish that one day teams like IFK Göteborg, Steaua Bucuresti, Ipswich, Slovan Bratislava, Mechelen and Anderlecht can win silverware in Europe again. Must have been a much more exciting time when teams from 20 nations could win in stead of the now 5-6 nations.

[Alex Rover]

Ignore

[Jock]

Cant see the problem being solved so easily. Our kids are fat dobbers with whiny greedy parents.

[Leonard Venkhater]

Cant see the problem being solved so easily. Our kids are fat dobbers with whiny greedy parents.

Ha! Well I stopped really caring years ago. Hell, I am starting to have the same apathy towards the England football team as I to for the Royal family!

Unlike my Irish in laws, my local team is infinitely more important to me than the national team.

Would I rather England win the world cup or Rovers win promotion?-No contest...Would I rather England win the world cup or Rovers beat Burnley?...Sorry, same again!

Hey, we worried about Keith Andrews, but did you know that Carlton Palmer has 18 England caps?

[yoda]

whos worried about Keith Andrews

[Leonard Venkhater]

whos worried about Keith Andrews

That he was so....er..s****

[thenodrog]

Limiting overseas players will not help make the England team better in any way. 200 English players playing regularly in what is effectively one of the worlds top leagues is easily enough to select 11 starters and half a dozen subs from.

The big problems with English football currently are....

a. Poor attitudes. Playing for England used to be the pinnacle of any players ambition, now it's just a chore necessary to suit ones sponsor and earn another 0 on the pay cheque. Any body who doesn't respect his country or his team mates or himself enough to put in a shift for the national team should be discarded. It would send out a styrong message to the rest of the squad. Prime example was the physical shape Rooney turned up in in the WC in SA. He'd have been on the first plane home if I had been manager but then again I don't have to contend with intense pressure from sponsors / advertisers etc delivered via some gin swilling buffoon from the FA . I have also to question the damage to the all round commitment of others once the bad example has been set. Lampard and Gerrard I feel have 'gone through the motions' many times whilst wearing the 3 lions. Compare this to the Germans who gave us a spanking. They had discarded the old guard and presented a vibrant and energetic team of young hungry players with thye emphasis on the word 'team'.

b. Lack of natural talent. The current squad has a power train through the middle which is simply second rate. Making the Premier league 100% English will do nothing toward that. Hart is suspect, players like Jagielka, Cahill are most definitely less than adequate and if Shawcross has an England cap then I despair. In the middle hopefully the likes of Jones and Wilshire may provide a breath of fresh air cos the old guard of Lampard, Barry, Gerrard and Carrick are over the hill whilst up front Rooney is on a definite decline whilst Wellbeck would not be even in the frame if he wore a shirt of a team out of the big 6. A willing runner is the best compliment that I can direct toward him.

c. A manager strong enough to do his own thing and not be influenced by distractions provided by press / media, sponsors, FA big wigs who know FA. Does one exist? I don't know but if one does and he manages to blag the interview it wont be long before he'll have more knives in his back than enough.

d. Unreasonable public expectation fuelled by said press and media. We are a quarter final nation at best and the sooner that is accepted by all the better..

[yoda]

That he was so....er..s****

correct,

anyway the problem with the England team is the limited number of quality players that are simply not hungry enough, bloated with PL wages, UEFA won't act as it stops England winning anything

[thenodrog]

Ha! Well I stopped really caring years ago. Hell, I am starting to have the same apathy towards the England football team as I to for the Royal family!

Unlike my Irish in laws, my local team is infinitely more important to me than the national team.

Would I rather England win the world cup or Rovers win promotion?-No contest...Would I rather England win the world cup or Rovers beat Burnley?...Sorry, same again!

Hey, we worried about Keith Andrews, but did you know that Carlton Palmer has 18 England caps?

I didn't mind Carlton Palmer Len.... In the same way that I didn't mind Nobby Stiles. Every team no matter how good they think they are need someone to stop the opposition playing. 'water carrier' Djorkaef was integral to France for a decade, just as Gattuso was key to Italy. Barca when the lose possession turn into 10 Gattuso's. Carlon Palmer wasn't eye candy but rather all sweat and graft and somebody to get the ball and provide for the fancy dans. Unfortunately Keith couldn't even do that in the Prem for us.

As for England winning the WC.... seeing us do that in '66 has to be right up there in my top two and only just behind beating the Mancs to the Prem title in '95. Maybe we all need to bear in mind that the football players who achieved that career pinnacle had spent their early years under war time and post war rationing and poverty and conducted their formative football years earning £25 pw, living in digs and using public transport to get to the match. Proper men.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

Totally agree with your post about 3 up theno except for point d. If points a and b are brought up to standard then personally I don't see why we should be a quarter final team. The only successful footballing nations with a significant population advantage over us are Brazil and Germany. And when you look at TV revenue for football in this country, I'd say there's more of a football-obsessed culture here than there is in Germany. So really in terms of the number of people with a passion for the game, we're only behind Brazil. If that passion can be utilised effectively (which admittedly would mean a big overhaul in coaching from a young age etc) then England should be aiming for semi-finals and finals every time.

Solving a and b in the list you mentioned is a phenomenally big job though. Point b comes down to getting top level coaches in for kids from an early age. I've known people who have coached youngsters at the likes of Rovers, Preston, Burnley etc and most of them couldn't play football for toffee. They'd got a degree and some badges, but I wouldn't have trusted them to coach my sunday league team. English football generates a heck of a lot of money and somehow more of it needs to be forced into funding top class coaches for under-8s, 9s, 10s teams. Because if the technique isn't up to scratch with kids from Brazil, Spain, Argentina etc from that age, our players will never catch up.

Point a is an even bigger problem for me. The technique might not be there but what's stopping our current crop playing in the PL style (pace and power) and making that work? Hart, Terry, Ferdinand, Cole, Walcott, Gerrard, Lampard and Rooney are all as good as the best foreign players in the PL, why can't they match them at international level? As you say its their terrible attitude and complete lack of effort when playing for England. And the reason why is money. This is an attitude no doubt fuelled by agents but I'd say 95% of players at club level now care about money above all else. They get paid a fortune to play for their club, they get paid peanuts to play for England. I wonder what their agents are whispering into their ears before an international game? And then a few games of going through the motions and it becomes the norm.

What baffles me is why foreign players still perform and ours don't. I wonder if its anything to do with playing in a foreign country and absence makes the heart grow fonder, we certainly never saw half-baked efforts from Beckham and Hargreaves in an England shirt. Whatever it is our players attitude is a complete disgrace and its no wonder interest in England is plummeting rapidly from the outstanding support the team received in the early 00s.

[thenodrog]

Population must be important but not sure it is that big an issue given that the likes of Portugal, Croatia, Sweden etc who generally give us so much trouble whilst imo we are usually quite some way behind matching the excellence of the Dutch. Rem not many of their top players even figure in playing in the Eredivisie.

As for coaching and Brazilians? Shouldn't we send our lot to kick about on Southport sands every day? Seems to work ok for them.

[jim mk2]

It's a long time ago but I still remember the tremendous feeling around the country from England's World Cup victory in 1966. The whole country was together and there was a fantastic atmosphere everywhere you went. I was nobbut a lad then and it's astonishing to think that nearly 50 years on I'm still waiting for England to reach a major final never mind actually win a trophy.

I've always felt that apart from short spells under Mercer, Robson, Venables and Eriksson England have been badly managed. Hoddle, Taylor, Keegan and McClaren were ridiculous appointments. Keegan actually admitted after he resigned he was out of his his depth. Hodgson looks in the same mould to me.

We had some wonderful players over the years - mavericks such as Hudson, Currie, Worthington, Bowles, Le Tissier all of whom should have gained more than 50 England caps and would have been feted in other countries. I doubt if they have 50 caps between them.

Under the present FA set-up as has been pointed out England do well to reach the quarter-finals of a big tournament. We often compare ourselves to Germany but the Germans are far more disciplined in their approach, rarely make mistakes and know how to play tournament football.

I've resigned myself to the fact I'll never see England lift the World Cup again and that 1966 was the pinnacle of our national game, never to be repeated. Unless of course we are allowed to host the World Cup again but that's another story.

[Majiball]

You lot should be grateful that at least you till get to go and watch your team at these events, france 98 for us...

[Darmond]

It's a long time ago but I still remember the tremendous feeling around the country from England's World Cup victory in 1966. The whole country was together and there was a fantastic atmosphere everywhere you went. I was nobbut a lad then and it's astonishing to think that nearly 50 years on I'm still waiting for England to reach a major final never mind actually win a trophy.

I've always felt that apart from short spells under Mercer, Robson, Venables and Eriksson England have been badly managed. Hoddle, Taylor, Keegan and McClaren were ridiculous appointments. Keegan actually admitted after he resigned he was out of his his depth. Hodgson looks in the same mould to me.

We had some wonderful players over the years - mavericks such as Hudson, Currie, Worthington, Bowles, Le Tissier all of whom should have gained more than 50 England caps and would have been feted in other countries. I doubt if they have 50 caps between them.

I envy you experiencing '66 but I think Hoddle as Manager had us playing good football and was sacked for non-football reasons. Robson and Venables were great too & the FA should have done more to keep Venables. Keegan was always out his depth as were Taylor and McLaren but Hodgson is a much more accomplished football man with international experience and as willing to get involved with u21s and the bigger picture, was probably a better choice than Harry. Eriksson was safe and unspectacular, did okay but wasted Scholes.

Also surprised you didn't mention Hoddle as a player, he only got 53 caps according to Wiki too.

I'm probably one of the rare ones, Robson and Gascoigne at Italia 90 are what got me in to football (non-football family) so England success is important to me however all the attitudes and dramas of the last few years indicates the players either aren't good enough, have the wrong attitude or are mentally too soft to achieve anything (or maybe all three).

Unfortunately bright ideas which could help like the u19 NextGen series (which Villa won against competition such as Barcelona, Inter & Ajax) have been shelved due to a lack of funding. The amounts of money involved with the Prem and FA bureaucracy mean politically that getting any united will to make a real change for the benefit of the national team as Germany have done is much harder in this country.

[West Yorks Rover]

Ha! Well I stopped really caring years ago. Hell, I am starting to have the same apathy towards the England football team as I to for the Royal family!

Unlike my Irish in laws, my local team is infinitely more important to me than the national team.

Would I rather England win the world cup or Rovers win promotion?-No contest...Would I rather England win the world cup or Rovers beat Burnley?...Sorry, same again!

Hey, we worried about Keith Andrews, but did you know that Carlton Palmer has 18 England caps?

Have to agree with you on this, I really don't care anymore, the whole England an FA thing is, unsurprisingly run by a bunch of greedy

self-servers, who actually get together, around a table an thrash out their own salaries, pensions and leaving packages.

This of course mirrors the way this country as a whole is run, and I don't like it and won't support it, as for the players, forget it !

ABE for me.

[Leonard Venkhater]

Have to agree with you on this, I really don't care anymore, the whole England an FA thing is, unsurprisingly run by a bunch of greedy

self-servers, who actually get together, around a table an thrash out their own salaries, pensions and leaving packages.

This of course mirrors the way this country as a whole is run, and I don't like it and won't support it, as for the players, forget it !

ABE for me.

Haha!

"Power and greed and corruptible seed

Seem to be all there is."...(.or summat)

Yep. ABE /ABU works for me...

[speeeeeeedie]

Would I rather England win the world cup or Rovers win promotion?-No contest...Would I rather England win the world cup or Rovers beat Burnley?...Sorry, same again!

The opposite for me. Every time. I'd take Burnley beating Rovers if it meant England winning something.

'water carrier' Djorkaef was integral to France for a decade

Cantona described Deschamps as the water carrier. Djorkaeff was a fantastic footballer who was wasted on that French team due to the peerless Zidane.

To the points regarding England I'd like to add these;

- Coaching. There aren't enough qualified coaches training young kids. They get taught bad habits at a young age, even at the pro clubs u8 academies.

- Pitches. How can you develop a fluid passing style of fooball when most players consistently play on awful pitches? I keep being told that they are getting better. but rain and local authority budget cuts don't help.

[OJRovers]

Even if England did win the world cup, I don't think there would be the same national celebrations as in '66 (from what people have said). There's such a disconnect now between the players playing for England and the everyday person that it wouldn't feel the same sense of achievement. After all, if they are getting paid £100,000 a week, surely we'd expect some victories? The characters in the current England squad also put a lot of people off - epitomised by John Terry being captain.

I'd personally feel much prouder of an England rugby (union) world cup win, or an Ashes victory in the cricket.

[Audax]

I certainly don't expect anything. At the same time, I don't think people thought in 2006 that starting in 2008, Spain would go on and become two time Euro Cup Champs and World Cup champs.

So Spain went from being a team usually knocked out in the Quarterfinals, almost never contending seriously to becoming the best.

[speeeeeeedie]

Even if England did win the world cup, I don't think there would be the same national celebrations as in '66 (from what people have said). There's such a disconnect now between the players playing for England and the everyday person that it wouldn't feel the same sense of achievement. After all, if they are getting paid £100,000 a week, surely we'd expect some victories? The characters in the current England squad also put a lot of people off - epitomised by John Terry being captain.

I'd personally feel much prouder of an England rugby (union) world cup win, or an Ashes victory in the cricket.

I agree with that point. He has never come across as someone who was worthy of being England captain. I am glad he has gone.

He was always too slow anyway.

[McClarky]

For me tha main problem is a lack of mental toughness rather than ability. Our players have a poor mentality and aren't trusted to play in big games. When they play for England they seem unable to do the basics well in big games and usually take the easy way out and either pass to the next defender or launch it up the pitch. There seems to be no one who will take on the responsibility of making something happen.

The England team set up has a lot to answer for as well though. Why were our young players playing friendliest in the summer when they could have been playing in an U21 tournament getting tournament experience? We should be setting targets of improving from the bottom up rather than coming out with nonsense predictions of winning the WC in 9 years.