[Archived] England Decline Must End

[Plastics]

If England were (or the manager) were any good, whatever the press say or does would not make a halfpennty worth of difference. England have failed for 50 years not because of the press but because of its own shortcomings. End of story.

Yes. As you'll find with most things in life, there's always one answer and it's never a combination of factors. It's either nurture or nature, never both to any form of differing degrees. It's either the communists or the man that are at fault for the downfall of society which is supposedly taking place perpetually.

Accept no complex answers, Jim'll fix one for you.

[blue_n_white99]

England played well under him and he was unlucky that England went out to Germany in the 2010 WC after Lampard's over the line goal was ruled out. Overall both managers did well for England given the talent available and neither could be said to have "failed".

Did you watch the game? Germany battered us, to claim we were unlucky is ridiculous, even Anderson/Kean couldn't spin that one.

Do your research - our press are like lambs compared to the media in other countries. In any case, a good manager like Ramsey ignores outside infuences and gets on with the job and some, like Venables, has the press eating out of his hand. Blaming the press for England';s failings since 1966 is putting your hand in the sand as to the real causes for our decline such as poor coaching and emphasis on strength rather than skill. Just accept like a,lot of people you're wrong.

I think you'll find it is:

head in the sand

[jim mk2]

England's failure is a complex subject and the reasons are many and varied but to blame the "pressure" of the press is wrongheaded and near the bottom of a very long list. Plastics by name and plastic by nature.

Did you watch the game? Germany battered us, to claim we were unlucky is ridiculous, even Anderson/Kean couldn't spin that one.

We were 2-0 down and Lampard's legitimate goal would have made it 2-2. Who know what would have happened then ? England were unlucky.

[Salgado Is A Hero]

Based on the earlier part of the game, and Germany and England's previous games in that tournament, I'm pretty sure they would have won anyway.

One could argue that England were lucky to be only 2-0 down before Upson scored.

[Audax]

England's failure is a complex subject and the reasons are many and varied but to blame the "pressure" of the press is wrongheaded and near the bottom of a very long list. Plastics by name and plastic by nature.

We were 2-0 down and Lampard's legitimate goal would have made it 2-2. Who know what would have happened then ? England were unlucky.

Sorry Jim, the proof is in the pudding, the press hounded Hoddle out, England played well under him. That whole episode caused an imbalance for years to come.

[Majiball]

yes the reasons are many and varied and I have no doubt that the pressure created by the press has played a role. Not a massive one but one all the same. I can't find a link (unbelievable) but I know I saw a program at the euro's and they were speaking about the italian press purposely not bigging them up? Didn't do them any harm. It's all about getting little advantages every where and I know the players don't in the main like it

Just as you can say England were unlucky so could the gerries as they could have been 4-5 up with a bit more luck. You were found wanting again at the crucial moment as always since 1966. England need to be able to stand up when it matters in the crucial moments but they don't and its a trait not just attached to one player so many display this trait here. England (Scotland too, Wales N the potato heads as well) has lost a lot from what it was post and pre WWII for better or worse.

[jim mk2]

Sorry Jim, the proof is in the pudding, the press hounded Hoddle out, England played well under him. That whole episode caused an imbalance for years to come.

Nonsense. Hoddle brought about his own downfall because he made stupid remarks that were printed in a newspaper. You're shooting the messenger. He was also an average coach - what has he done since ?

[Majiball]

Nonsense. Hoddle brought about his own downfall because he made stupid remarks that were printed in a newspaper. You're shooting the messenger. He was also an average coach - what has he done since ?

OK quick Q.

Your a judge in a high profile case that's been put back already because the prosecution wasn't ready. The prosecution turns up yet again and say they're not ready. This means this trial will now cost 1.5M in taxpayers money. What and how would you speak to the lead prosecutor???

[Audax]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England_national_football_team

Actually Hoddle's winning percentage was 60.7; one of the best, couple that with his coming after Taylor and Venables, total respect to those two gents but their winning percentages were only 47+% in comparison. In fact, it appears only Ramsey and Capello statistically did better. Greenwood is at 60% so basically the same as Hoddle.

1998 England went out to Argentina on penalties, Beckham red carded from the game.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/England_national_football_team

[Amo]

Nonsense. Hoddle brought about his own downfall because he made stupid remarks that were printed in a newspaper. You're shooting the messenger. He was also an average coach - what has he done since ?

I agree that Hoddle should've been more media savvy with those comments. However, what made his remarks anymore "stupid" than anyone else with religious/spiritual beliefs? The ensuing witch-hunt from the gutter press and intolerance towards his beliefs was typical of this country. It also saw the back of a very good manager. And this was in the 90s! Can you imagine if someone dared to have an opinion like that in today's PC society?

[perthblue02]

Can you imagine if someone dared to have an opinion like that in today's PC society?

He would get the managers job at Sunderland or Swindon

[Audax]

It's bad what Aragones said to motivate his player towards Thierry Henry, it's interesting that the wikipedia article notes it was the English press that took a big issue with what Aragones said, perhaps not the Spanish press. So sure, the Italian and Spanish press get on their players and managers but they don't make a mountain out of a molehill about a lot of personal matters it seems.

The incident caused uproar in the British media with calls for Aragonés to be sacked.^{[citation needed]} After an investigation into the events during the match, UEFA fined the RFEF 100,000 Swiss francs/87,000 US$ (one day's wages) and warned that any future incidents would be punished more severely. UEFA noted that possible punishments could include suspension from major international tournaments or the closure of Spain's home international matches to supporters.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luis_Aragon%C3%A9s#Thierry_Henry_incident

So this is worse than the Glenn Hoddle incident in my opinion but apparently Luis Aragones stayed their for 4 more years AND won a Euro, 2008 and SPAIN have been playing well since. Stupid thing to say but in practise, you might hear a lot of things.

Interestingly, France defeated Spain on a questionable incident involving Henry which gave France a free-kick that Zidane scored on at the 2006 World Cup of all things.

[jim mk2]

I agree that Hoddle should've been more media savvy with those comments. However, what made his remarks anymore "stupid" than anyone else with religious/spiritual beliefs? The ensuing witch-hunt from the gutter press and intolerance towards his beliefs was typical of this country. It also saw the back of a very good manager. And this was in the 90s! Can you imagine if someone dared to have an opinion like that in today's PC society?

"Media savvy"? Hoddle's comments were downright offensive and totally inappropriate for anyone to make, let alone an England football manager. The "witch-hunt" (such as it was) was entirely justified and had nothing to with tolerance. Hoddle had to go.

[Audax]

He would get the managers job at Sunderland or Swindon

That's nothing compared to Luis Aragones' words and nothing happened to him in Spain, at least as far as leaving the team.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luis_Aragon%C3%A9s#cite_note-1

Seems when Jim has followed International Football for more than 10 years, he should comment.

[Amo]

"Media savvy"? Hoddle's comments were downright offensive and totally inappropriate for anyone to make, let alone an England football manager. The "witch-hunt" (such as it was) was entirely justified and had nothing to with tolerance. Hoddle had to go.

Hoddle was only repeating a belief that is shared by Buddhists & Hindus. Are those religions "downright offensive and inappropriate"?

[Plastics]

Hoddle was only repeating a belief that is shared by Buddhists & Hindus. Are those religions "downright offensive and inappropriate"?

To be honest, the Dalai Lama has his own history of stupid remarks. I wouldn't have him as England manager if he had a 70% record.

[jim mk2]

Hoddle was only repeating a belief that is shared by Buddhists & Hindus. Are those religions "downright offensive and inappropriate"?

An England manager should stick to football and not get out of his depth over issues he knows nothing about. Hoddle was at it again only two years ago.

Ihttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1357085/Glenn-Hoddles-new-Sky-Sports-racism-row-joke-Chinese.html

[speeeeeeedie]

Nonsense. Hoddle brought about his own downfall because he made stupid remarks that were printed in a newspaper. You're shooting the messenger.

Keep digging. I don't think any of us are saying that the press is the sole reason for England's repeated failures. What we are saying is that they certainly don't help with their muck raking, especially at and just before tournament time. They had stiffies for weeks over Faria Alam. John Terry's attempted coup in South Africa was another one.

I think you need to do a bit of research on the Leveson inquiry, to find out how ethical the "messengers" and their practices are.

[Plastics]

Still had to go, though.

[jim mk2]

I'm very familiar with Leveson thank you. To repeat, all leading football nations have to live with an inquisitive and intrusive media. Germany in particular. The difference is they get with the football and recognise when they have a problem on and off the field, as Germany did in 2002. Blaming the press for the demise of inadequate England managers and the failure of the national team is lazy and for fools.

[K-Hod]

The press don't help though. Wilshere played once then he was the next Iniesta, he then gets caught with a cigarette on a night out and he's the antichrist.

I couldn't give a hoot what players do off the pitch (within reason) as long as they aren't found wanting on it.

[Majiball]

The press don't help though. Wilshere played once then he was the next Iniesta, he then gets caught with a cigarette on a night out and he's the antichrist.

I couldn't give a hoot what players do off the pitch (within reason) as long as they aren't found wanting on it.

It's no longer about right or wrong or even the truth with newspapers these days, it's about one thing:

Money.

Parts are left out, meanings twisted its about selling papers and that means sensationalism, boring and normal doesn't.

(obviously not all are like this)

[Majiball]

KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEANKEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEANKEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEANKEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEANKEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEANKEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEANKEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEANKEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEANKEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEANKEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEANKEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEANKEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN KEAN

[old darwen blue]

Majiball is there something you want to tell us?

[Audax]

I'm very familiar with Leveson thank you. To repeat, all leading football nations have to live with an inquisitive and intrusive media. Germany in particular. The difference is they get with the football and recognise when they have a problem on and off the field, as Germany did in 2002. Blaming the press for the demise of inadequate England managers and the failure of the national team is lazy and for fools.

You talk about not shooting the messenger, yet, let's not forget the adage "Name-Calling is the first refuge for a man without an argument"; comparing Germany in 2004 to the Fake Shiekh scandal, Jack Wilshere's smoking, some Rooney antics is comparing apples to oranges.

The Daily Mail reported on Lord Treisman's comments at an inopportune time when England were bidding on hosting the World Cup. Another tempest in a teapot.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/8685009.stm

http://england.worldcupblog.org/world-cup-bid/daily-mail-betrays-the-bid.html

This whole affair has gotten me thoroughly upset at the negligence of Lord Triesman, and the betrayal both on the part of his mistress and the Daily Mail. As the Pies article I linked to above, I think any football fan with a sense of loyalty should immediately boycott the Mail. It can work, we all know that the Sun doesn’t shine on Merseyside, and I resent every penny they earn from that paper.

And as some of the comments say in the article you cite on what Hoddle said a few years ago, really? That's news worthy??

Half of these news stories are jokes, they may have minimal effect. It certainly isn't the sole reason.

An England manager should stick to football and not get out of his depth over issues he knows nothing about. Hoddle was at it again only two years ago.

Ihttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1357085/Glenn-Hoddles-new-Sky-Sports-racism-row-joke-Chinese.html

"Knee Shin Toe"?? Oh, how very horrible.

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