[Archived] England Decline Must End

[Baz]

Spain? I doubt I'd include Spain in that list. They won little and consistently under achieved until just a few years ago. In fact I'd prob use Spain as the counter argument.

Spain have always produced top quality players, although they flopped at most tournaments.

[thenodrog]

Sorry Baz..... You are quite correct. Cant think why but just for the moment I had forgotten De Pedro.

[Salgado Is A Hero]

Having said all the above, i have often wondered whether England would have been more successful in the short term had Allardyce got the gig. I know it aint too pretty and longer term it would have been problematic and we would still have found ourselves in the same position we're currently in a few years down the line. But watching England try to match top foreign sides is painfull because we simply can't do what they do. I wonder if Allardyce might have got a tune out of the national side by just doing what we are currently good at. Out muscle rather than out think. Direct, incisive football - real up n at em stuff which the foreign legion don't like. As i say, it'd be short term only and probably easy to counter given time, but i often think with Big Sam or such like at the helm and no apologies for playing the way he does, we might have (to steal Bob's phrase) bloodied a few more noses along the way.

Fabio Capello played that style though.

England need to sort out their coaches/academies, remove signs that say "No ball games allowed", pick players based on form eg Agbonlahor atm, usually the likes of Osman etc, and not on who they play for eg Smalling, Cleverley, Sterling, Welbeck....not play Rooney in tournaments as he does nothing (play Sturridge), drop Hart for Foster when he's back from injury.

I'd have Phil Jones CB with Jagielka, Lampard over Gerrard who's too wasteful and erratic in his positioning....like I said players who are on form, Townsend was the right call up, Sturridge should start over Rooney.

I would usually argue that you have to be a first team regular at your club to get a game but Jones is a future England captain and potentially one the world's best CBs so he needs to play now.

[Amo]

There's also a case for England fast-tracking its players to the senior squad before they've even earned their stripes. Case in point: Ross Barkley. He's only started half a dozen games for Everton and he's already got his first cap. The whole England set-up's a joke.

[Cowan]

Kind of hard to buy English players when they're all @#/?, mainly because the coaches are @#/? too

[Audax]

Belgium, is the new Turkey, as was Romania at one point. Once in a while you will get a golden generation of top players.

The places to look are those that consistently produce good winning teams, the likes of Germany, Holland, Spain, Italy & Argentina who despite a relatively small population always seem to produce top quality players.

But you have to look from ages 4-5 all the way through to 30 to truely evaluate that progress.

In this country we quite often get rid of smaller built ball-players from academies in favour of bigger stronger quicker lads. In spain for example its not unusual to have 50+ professionals 16-21 to give them time to fully develop physically, and technically, whereas theres a stat that only 7% of those with a professional contract at 17 in the uk still have one at 21. I agree somewhat the cream will come to the top, but maybe our iniesta / mata / carzolas are just out-physicalled from the game at an earlier stage?

I agree with most of this except Belgium actually has had a good number of teams historically, runner up 1980 Euro, 4th place 1986 World Cup, before there were World Cups, they won Olympic Gold at the Antwerp 1920 Olympics and apparently a bronze medal another time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Football_at_the_Summer_Olympics So, while this may not indicate a stellar pedigree, it's not bad.

Spain had Buitregueño in the '80s, Raul was their big star cerca 2002 so they have basically come to explode on the scene and though it's not that attractive of football to some, I think they deserve it or else we'd see the same ol' same ol' win.

Once someone from Spain did say many of the top clubs in England are much too light on home country, home nation players. I think obviously, that is where the big fault lies and that is where the FA or Premier League need to shape things up.

A lot of people don't like Platini's politics, probably me included but as a player, he and that France team were fantastic, in the 1982 World Cup, it is well known, Schumacher tackled or mauled the French attacker Battiston, West Germany won and hey, I don't mean to be unduly critical but these kinds of shenanigans, the things Italy has done too has often stiffed the likes of France and Spain, In 2006, famously, Thierry Henry went down to the ground in the game of France vs. Spain, Henry with his head in his hands, France got a free kick and ended up winning that game something like 3-1, I think the French found out that sometimes this gamesmanship is what wins games, they obviously cheated Ireland Republic in that famous 2009 playoff game, the handball goal. I'm just saying there's a lot more here than meets the eye. Nowadays, Germany is one of the most sporting teams around, not sure when their next trophy will come all the same. Don't mean to talk negatively of any teams because eventually, every team has done something like this, it just may not be their bread and butter.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Small scale games are the way to go for young kids. The more contact with either the ball or opposition players with the ball the better. That's nothing new, it's how I learnt to play 50 years ago.

[patrickvalery]

Small scale games are the way to go for young kids. The more contact with either the ball or opposition players with the ball the better. That's nothing new, it's how I learnt to play 50 years ago.

I agree but it is imperative its not solely small scale games. I've seen players who are ridiculously good playing 5's but stick them on a full size pitch and they are utterly lost.

Imo young lads, and im talking the 6-7 yr olds need to learn how to control a football first and foremost. Its incredible just how many people get to mens football and they cant manage this. Once you learn to put the ball exactly where you want it within a few feet of you then the rest becomes easier. I know this isn't reflective of pro football, but its indicative of coaching at a young age. Its not considered to be important. Yet the Spanish and such like create space and vital time with the simplest of touches. Our youth football often revolves around how far you can kick the ball and your height and stature. It makes no sense.

[JAL]

When you have agents ruining and controlling young players minds there can never be a future for England on a national level.

Its important to add that the supporters who swallow the crap thats put out must be equally culpible in the demise of our national game.

[joey_big_nose]

I 'd like to know what they're doing right in Belgium. It's a small country but what a team they've developed recently.

Absolutely. Player for player only Spain, Germany and Brazil are better imo. They are up there with Italy, Argentina, the dutch. Easily a better team than England. Astonishing achievement in six years or so. Love to see them win WC 2014.

[Audax]

http://uk.soccerway.com/teams/belgium/belgium/281/

Their squad, still looks like it's largely rooted in Belgium all the same.

http://eloratings.net/Belgium.htm

All of their matches, I remember trying to make the Euro, they had a draw with Turkey and could have made it only by defeating Germany which they did not. See June 2011 and October 2011 matches.

So, it's been a long time coming.

The 1986 team had:

The team's rigorous organization was reinforced by several world-class players such as goalkeepers Jean-Marie Pfaff and Michel Preud'homme, right-back Eric Gerets, midfielder Jan Ceulemans, playmaker Enzo Scifo and striker Luc Nilis - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgium_national_football_team

Think some of those players are fairly well known. I think there were 2 Pfaff brothers who played for them.

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Great article with Rio: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2414962/Rio-Ferdinand-There-minimum-number-English-players-Premier-League-teams.html It's the truth.

English fans too, think the majority are club before country, even if we weren't saddled with the often disappointing National team 3 Lions. Though maybe it'd be a lot different.

[neekoy]

It is funny that people are saying club before country any day of the week yet lambast the players for having what seems to be the same attitude.

For me, it is shown perfectly in participation rates in sport generally. Backyards are getting smaller, indoor activities are becoming more and more popular. Kids these days rarely want to go down the park to kick the footy around and when they do their parent are generally working or busy doing other things.

Australia is a perfect example of decline because sport participation really doesn't figure as an important pastime as it did 10-15 years ago and you get a drop in quality at the highest level. The best players in Sport are no longer the elite but are good enough to build some form of marketing profile. As DROG said earlier, the best players have always come from the toughest of backgrounds, we need to get more people like that involved.

Even if it doesn't mean England will win more World Cups, the flow on effect by having more English/Scots/Welsh/NI/Irish playing in the league will encourage participation.

[CapeTownRover]

I could just take out England, and put South Africa in here. Its very much similar with us, and to fail to qualify for the World Cup is embarrassing considering our resources. However, its about more than just having the resources, its now about having the players who can make the best out of what they have. One aspect which is always difficult, is to take one junior team up in its entirety. Eg, the England under 18 team, only a few make the grade, the rest drift away, why? All of those kids were selected on ability, so look at who selected them, and then start again. But, if you look beyond the destruction caused by the Premier League on your national team, then you would be a fool. You can never justify the amount of money spent on foreigners, while still pumping millions into an academy that will never produce anything to be proud of. It shows a lack of confidence when teams fail to properly promote a young lad, yet, the clubs go out and spend ridiculous amounts on a foreign youngster. Granted that many foreign youngsters are pretty good, its still poor to ignore one of your own.

[dave birch]

It is funny that people are saying club before country any day of the week yet lambast the players for having what seems to be the same attitude.

For me, it is shown perfectly in participation rates in sport generally. Backyards are getting smaller, indoor activities are becoming more and more popular. Kids these days rarely want to go down the park to kick the footy around and when they do their parent are generally working or busy doing other things.

Australia is a perfect example of decline because sport participation really doesn't figure as an important pastime as it did 10-15 years ago and you get a drop in quality at the highest level. The best players in Sport are no longer the elite but are good enough to build some form of marketing profile. As DROG said earlier, the best players have always come from the toughest of backgrounds, we need to get more people like that involved.

Even if it doesn't mean England will win more World Cups, the flow on effect by having more English/Scots/Welsh/NI/Irish playing in the league will encourage participation.

Neekoy, It might be like that where you live, but in my local government area, we can't get enough playing fields to play on. There are a lot, but not enough to cater for the numbers wanting to play. Not just football, cricket, netball, or Aussie Rules, but baseball and the like. (My local government area has a population of some 220,000 and from that some 17000, play football, that's just football)

Here, I think that the quality of coaching is sub par, except when you start to show some exceptional talent. If the coaching was put into those trying to get into the elite level, then that would lift the quality.

[Rover_Shaun]

And don't forget that in the not too distant future even more School fields will be build on thanks to the EU 'movement of labour'

[thenodrog]

It is funny that people are saying club before country any day of the week yet lambast the players for having what seems to be the same attitude.

For me, it is shown perfectly in participation rates in sport generally. Backyards are getting smaller, indoor activities are becoming more and more popular. Kids these days rarely want to go down the park to kick the footy around and when they do their parent are generally working or busy doing other things or these days wont allow them .

Australia is a perfect example of decline because sport participation really doesn't figure as an important pastime as it did 10-15 years ago and you get a drop in quality at the highest level. The best players in Sport are no longer the elite but are good enough to build some form of marketing profile. As DROG said earlier, the best players have always come from the toughest of backgrounds, we need to get more people like that involved.

Even if it doesn't mean England will win more World Cups, the flow on effect by having more English/Scots/Welsh/NI/Irish playing in the league will encourage participation.

Added a bit.

[Majiball]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/world_cup_2010/8688093.stm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/8785895.stm

[thenodrog]

Our lot need mental coaching more than anything. We consistently under achieve mostly because of the player's attitudes. The only time that I have seen a proper positive approach from the players was 66, 70, 90 and 96(euro). Too often we have been let down by unprofessional and media overblown surrender monkeys.

[jim mk2]

Our lot need mental coaching more than anything. We consistently under achieve mostly because of the player's attitudes. The only time that I have seen a proper positive approach from the players was 66, 70, 90 and 96(euro). Too often we have been let down by unprofessional and media overblown surrender monkeys.

Also the years when we had decent managers.

[Guest Norbert]

One of the papers recently said that Pep Guardiola was not approached when he was interested, and Hodgson was the target instead.

If true.....D'oh!

[Proudtobeblue&white]

Our lot need mental coaching more than anything. We consistently under achieve mostly because of the player's attitudes. The only time that I have seen a proper positive approach from the players was 66, 70, 90 and 96(euro). Too often we have been let down by unprofessional and media overblown surrender monkeys.

96 was the year, Shearer, Sheringham and Gazza in his prime. If only Shearers toe had been longer we'd have been in the final.....that really was our chance. At home, the mood was awesome......and Alan, oh Alan, my hero......till he did the dirty. But still a legend for four years at Ewood!

[Stuart]

96 was the year, Shearer, Sheringham and Gazza in his prime. If only Shearers toe had been longer we'd have been in the final.....that really was our chance. At home, the mood was awesome......and Alan, oh Alan, my hero......till he did the dirty. But still a legend for four years at Ewood!

1990 was our year. If only Gazza's toe had been longer.

1986 I properly fell in love with football, 1990 was when I learned about heartbreak.

I really thought we were going to win it that year.

[jim mk2]

Heartbreak mate was 1970.

We were world champions, 2-0 up against W Germany in the quarter-finals and lost 3-2. Better team than 1966 too.

Forty years on, I've never really recovered.

[thenodrog]

Indeed. Big Jack would have kicked Luigi Riva to Kingdom Come in the semi's..... and if we could have found a half decent striker we just might have overcome the famous Brazilians in the final............. if only my alarm hadn't gone off!

[Rover_Shaun]

Damn those pesky Hungarians too