[Archived] Lampard Greatest Footballer in the BPL era

[rigger]

Isn't that what under-rated means? :$

No under-rated is when you perform well on a constant basis, and " not given credit for it".

Aren't they the same thing though?

No the fact that you personally thought he did not get enough praise, Does not mean that he was under-rated. He got the amount of credit that he deserved, which judging by contacts and the teams he played for was quite a lot, so he was never under-rated.

[Hekla]

Friedel was better than Van Der Sar, did it consistently for longer.

[Mike E]

No under-rated is when you perform well on a constant basis, and " not given credit for it".

Pot-ay-to, pot-ah-to.

[rigger]

Pot-ay-to, pot-ah-to.

If you are trying to state a point of view, then go ahead in plain language, rather than cryptic nonsense. Are you saying that Beckham was under-rated? If so, give reasons for this thinking.

[Batman.]

Friedel was better than Van Der Sar, did it consistently for longer.

Nope. van Der Sar did it for the world's top clubs, won titles and European Cups, and performed consistently at the very top level, under incredible pressure.

Friedel didn't. Much easier at Rovers/ Villa/ Spurs. At Liverpool he crumbled somewhat.

[Guest Norbert]

Could look at it another way though, Friedel had a worse team in front of him, and therefore had to do more to protect the goal in his career. Van Der Saar has (deservedly) played in a great Ajax team and the top club in this country, and therefore has had better players defending and pressuring the opposition.

Just a thought.

[den]

According to Batman's logic, Shearer would be downgraded because he was at Rovers.

[Mike E]

If you are trying to state a point of view, then go ahead in plain language, rather than cryptic nonsense. Are you saying that Beckham was under-rated? If so, give reasons for this thinking.

I'm saying the not getting credit for your performance (regardless of the relativity) is what the word 'under-rated' means.

Re: Beckham, he was rated as very important to his sides and very good at playing diagonal balls (and dead balls). He's never been rated as a world-class winger, just a world-class crosser and free-kick taker. He's neither under or over-rated imo.

According to Batman's logic, Shearer would be downgraded because he was at Rovers.

And Newcastle. But for every Shearer or LeTissier (top class at not-the-best clubs) there are dozens of players who play consistently at higher levels. There's a reason they make the best teams in the world.

[Batman.]

Could look at it another way though, Friedel had a worse team in front of him, and therefore had to do more to protect the goal in his career. Van Der Saar has (deservedly) played in a great Ajax team and the top club in this country, and therefore has had better players defending and pressuring the opposition.

Just a thought.

Van Der Sar also did it at Fulham, which kinda blows that point of view.

According to Batman's logic, Shearer would be downgraded because he was at Rovers.

What a stupid thing to say; we were the best team in the country and won the title.

[den]

What a stupid thing to say; we were the best team in the country and won the title.

So the best keepers don't always play for the best teams then?

[Batman.]

So the best keepers don't always play for the best teams then?

Eh? Shearer was the best striker and played for the best team. His name and reputation is nowhere near as big as it should be, and that's because he didn't play for the best team/s for too long in his career. Is it a coincidence that his best days were at Rovers, in terms of success and even his ability?

There are not many genuine world class players who go through their career without playing for a top club. Likewise, only special players get to play the vast majority of their careers at top clubs, as their is a mentality that goes with performing to your best at the very top level.

Friedel has never proved he could do this. van Der Sar did. Hence- van Der Sar = better.

Personally I don't really see how any holes can be picked in that argument, although I look forward to seeing people have a go.

[Salgado Is A Hero]

There are not many genuine world class players who go through their career without playing for a top club. Likewise, only special players get to play the vast majority of their careers at top clubs, as their is a mentality that goes with performing to your best at the very top level.

So there are some? Maybe one who played for a top club in Turkey, but it just didn't work at a particular top club in England...which does happen occasionally to even the elite eg Shevchenko and Kaka to an extent but injuries played their part.

[Guest Norbert]

Forgot about Fulham. To be honest, I was just putting a hypothetical argument, rather than saying you're wrong. Van Der Saar was slightly better than Friedel, but Brad has had more longevity, and is/was a world class keeper in his own right.

[Stuart]

Eh? Shearer was the best striker and played for the best team. His name and reputation is nowhere near as big as it should be, and that's because he didn't play for the best team/s for too long in his career. Is it a coincidence that his best days were at Rovers, in terms of success and even his ability?

There are not many genuine world class players who go through their career without playing for a top club. Likewise, only special players get to play the vast majority of their careers at top clubs, as their is a mentality that goes with performing to your best at the very top level.

Friedel has never proved he could do this. van Der Sar did. Hence- van Der Sar = better.

Personally I don't really see how any holes can be picked in that argument, although I look forward to seeing people have a go.

Really difficult to compare players across different periods, and trophies won doesn't really show the difference in ability. Right place, right time comes into it. With a great defence, an average goalkeeper can find his tenure lengthened - Hart is a case in point. He wouldn't last two minutes at Rovers.

Here's an interesting comparison though:

2010/11 Season

Van Der Sar/Manchester United - Shots 398 - Saved 365 (92%)

Friedel/Tottenham - Shots 551 - Saved 59 (89%)

Robinson/Rovers - Shots 510 - Saved 55 (89%)

Really not much in it at all and Van Der Sar faced a lot fewer shots more than 20% less. Would he have been as good at Spurs or Rovers? We'll never know...

[Amo]

Goalkeepers have always been a bit of an exception to the rule, tbh. Some of the PL's best goalkeepers, such as Nigel Martyn or Shay Given, never made it at so-called "big clubs" during their golden years, but there was clearly no doubting their ability between the sticks.

[yoda]

According to Batman's logic, Shearer would be downgraded because he was at Rovers.

he was downgraded when he went to Newcastle,

would you play with a barcode on your chest, you would never know when you would be checked out!

[Batman.]

Really not much in it at all and Van Der Sar faced a lot fewer shots more than 20% less. Would he have been as good at Spurs or Rovers? We'll never know...

He played at Fulham, and his form got him a move to the biggest club in the world.

So there are some?

Go on, name them.

[Salgado Is A Hero]

Go on, name them.

You said it not me. Tbh, I haven't been paying attention to the debate but are you saying Friedel wasn't world-class? Because he never played for a top team? Apart from Galatasaray if people class them as one.

Friedel went to one in Liverpool, it didn't work out which happens, then maybe he didn't feel like he had to go to one. He was content to play for us, then Villa/Spurs and prove his immense talent internationally like at the 2002 World Cup.

For me, a player's ability is judged on exactly that, their ability, after watching them. Not the teams they've played for.

Van Der Sar was class, undoubtedly. He had proved that before coming to England. But I never really heard him mentioned among the elite goalkeepers until he had gone to United. If Friedel had gone to a top English side as well, everyone would have been raving about him in a similar sense.

I rate Friedel higher, slightly. Not much in it, but I do.

Oh yea, the question. Le Tissier I guess. Others I'm sure but that wasn't what I was getting at.

[Batman.]

You said it not me. Tbh, I haven't been paying attention to the debate but are you saying Friedel wasn't world-class? Because he never played for a top team? Apart from Galatasaray if people class them as one.

Friedel went to one in Liverpool, it didn't work out which happens, then maybe he didn't feel like he had to go to one. He was content to play for us, then Villa/Spurs and prove his immense talent internationally like at the 2002 World Cup.

For me, a player's ability is judged on exactly that, their ability, after watching them. Not the teams they've played for.

Van Der Sar was class, undoubtedly. He had proved that before coming to England. But I never really heard him mentioned among the elite goalkeepers until he had gone to United. If Friedel had gone to a top English side as well, everyone would have been raving about him in a similar sense.

I rate Friedel higher, slightly. Not much in it, but I do.

Oh yea, the question. Le Tissier I guess. Others I'm sure but that wasn't what I was getting at.

Friedel was certainly close to World Class, but I think to prove yourself as World Class, you have to prove yourself at the very top level.

He didn't. As a result, I wouldn't put him in a 'Top 20 of all time' list of players who played in the Premier League, and I wouldn't rate him ahead of van Der Sar. The reason van Der Sar went off the radar was because he was at Fulham. Friedel was never 'on the radar;' yes he'd get praise when he had an amazing game, and linked with the odd top club, but why did it never come off for him?

People always talk about players who leave Rovers not doing as well as when they were here, such as Bentley, Santa Cruz etc etc, and the main reason is it's easy to be at a mid table club, being the underdog and 'over performing' so to speak. However, it's when you're in the big pond it's harder, and I think most would agree it's down to mentality as much as ability. Those players who have left to join bigger clubs could easily have stayed in mid table and kept on performing very well, and praised constantly as a result. That's what Friedel did. Had Bentley have stayed with us for 10 years and been consistent at the level he was in that Hughes era, would that have meant he'd have proven himself as been world class? No.

The harsh reality for Friedel is that he had one shot at a really big club, and blew it. To the extent where we were even sceptical about signing him when we were in the old First Division. Yes he went on to prove us all wrong and them some, but unfortunately all he has to show for his career is a Worthington Cup winners medal.

I reiterate; world class players don't end their career with just one Worthington Cup medal to their name.

And finally, please nobody try and label me as knocking Friedel, as he is by far and away the best keeper I've ever seen at Rovers. I'm just analysing him and his career in the context of the thread, and people putting him in "greatest ever lists" ahead and amongst some of the most decorated and celebrated players of all time.

[thenodrog]

His ability is unquestionable although he was poor with his kicking but I think his unbroken appearence record counts as one massively big plus. No good signing the best player in the world if they are injury prone and sat on the treatment table for weeks on end is it?

[Batman.]

His ability is unquestionable although he was poor with his kicking but I think his unbroken appearence record counts as one massively big plus. No good signing the best player in the world if they are injury prone and sat on the treatment table for weeks on end is it?

And how does that contribute to the debate?

[darrenrover]

Having been a goalkeeper at a reasonably high standard myself, I would comment as:

Brad Friedel was ok no more, great pro, shot stopper, one on ones, crap at catching crosses ditto all others in recent times IMO.

The only outstanding keeper in the past 25 years is Schmichael IMO. The only other to come close is Shay Given.

My iconic keeper was Roger Jones.

[thenodrog]

I guess you need to ask a Premier League manager the same question cock.

[Salgado Is A Hero]

We differ because you're basing a lot of your argument on clubs that they've played for and medals won. Shearer's medal collection is quite embarrassing for one of the best striker's ever. And he never really proved himself at the top level domestically which is the Champions League. But he was absolutely quality.

With Friedel....I get what you're saying in it being different at the big clubs but the fact he didn't do well at Liverpool doesn't mean he wasn't that standard. Not imo.

I'm confident he would have shone at a top club. Why he never ended up leaving is a mystery. But the fact he didn't doesn't make me doubt myself.

[darrenrover]

I guess you need to ask a Premier League manager the same question cock.

To what question are you referring cock?