[Archived] Lampard Greatest Footballer in the BPL era

[Guest Norbert]

Strange. He was looking good last season. Fettis was just awful.

[thenodrog]

What about Flowers? That performance against Newcastle on D-Day was as good as anything I've seen from anyone.

Nope. Still Brad by some distance.

No debate to be had Batman. By your own logic Roger Jones couldn't have been any good because he didn't play at the top level.

Debate over. Wound licking exercise now for the caped crusader.

[Amo]

Debate over. Wound licking exercise now for the caped crusader.

Except that Den's missing the point completely. Batman said that Friedel cannot be considered one of the PL's Top 20 players because he never made it at a top club. What part of that are people having trouble with? Den's retorts have frankly been amateurish and I've noticed a real decline in the standard of his posting recently. I think recent events have sapped his mojo and he needs a sabbatical.

[den]

Except that Den's missing the point completely. Batman said that Friedel cannot be considered one of the PL's Top 20 players because he never made it at a top club. What part of that are people having trouble with?

You're as daft as him.

[Amo]

You're as daft as him.

That's the argument he's put forward, Den. Where on earth does it translate into 'Sir Roger Jones isn't a great goalie' or Friedel either, for that matter? If you're unwilling or incapable of the debating the point, then let it go, rather than resort to the above.

[den]

That's the argument he's put forward, Den. Where on earth does it translate into 'Sir Roger Jones isn't a great goalie' or Friedel either, for that matter? If you're unwilling or incapable of the debating the point, then let it go, rather than resort to the above.

It' a ridiculous statement Amarillo. Anyone who watches live football for year after year, is quite capable of making their mind up of how good a player is. Not being at a top club doesn't have any bearing on the player, he is what he is. Being at a top club doesn't mean every player would make it into a top 20 list either. It's subjective.

[Salgado Is A Hero]

I'm with Den. There's only one way to judge a player and that's by watching him.

It's like what Jonnolad used to say about Keith Andrews. "Well he must be good because Trappatoni obviously rates him."

He's not good because I've seen him with my own eyes.

"How can Lambert etc be good if they've spent most of their career in the lower leagues? Titus Bramble, John O' Shea and Tom Huddlestone have played in the PL throughout their careers and the latter two in the Champions League so obviously they're good players".

It's just like using stats - "Joe Hart must be the best keeper because he kept the most clean sheets last season".

It's ridiculous.

Like Den says it's subjective. But Batman thinks he's won the argument because he's used his flawless criteria to win the debate. Well no, we don't buy into his theory so it's still subjective.

[den]

I'm with Den. There's only one way to judge a player and that's by watching him.

It's like what Jonnolad used to say about Keith Andrews. "Well he must be good because Trappatoni obviously rates him."

He's not good because I've seen him with my own eyes.

"How can Lambert etc be good if they've spent most of their career in the lower leagues? Titus Bramble, John O' Shea and Tom Huddlestone have played in the PL throughout their careers and the latter two in the Champions League so obviously they're good players".

It's just like using stats - "Joe Hart must be the best keeper because he kept the most clean sheets last season".

It's ridiculous.

Exactly. It's like arguing that Matthews and Finney couldn't be considered in the top ten best players in English football, because one played for Preston and the other for Stoke and Blackpool.

[Stuart]

Like Den says it's subjective. But Batman thinks he's won the argument because he's used his flawless criteria to win the debate. Well no, we don't buy into his theory so it's still subjective.

Right, let's analyse the argument Batman is making: "Brad Friedel is not in the list of the best 20 Premier League players [since 1992]."

The subplot is that it is Batman feels it is because he hasn't played for a top club. Although it could be argued that he played at Tottenham when they were a top club, and only lost his place because there was pressure building on the manager to play a keeper he had (needlessly) spent millions on.

There really aren't many keepers who would get into the PL top 20 list though - maybe one. This therefore turns the discussion into: "Is Brad Friedel the best keeper in the PL of the last 20 years"?

All of the other noises and Rogering is a red herring - presumably deliberate to bait, Batters.

I hope Lampard isn't reading this thread, btw.

[Salgado Is A Hero]

Scheimeicel is the best, the vast majority would agree. It's mainly about whether or not he's better than Van Der Sar.

[Stuart]

It's only really an overblown blog site but this one http://whatculture.com/sport/100-greatest-premier-league-players-of-all-time.php/15 has the following list. Interestingly it puts Brad just behind Seaman and before Shay Given. With Van Der Sar in 33rd! This is the bit of the argument that is most subjective. Personally, Shearer would be ahead of Henry. Roy Keane WELL ahead of Le Tissier. Not sure Shay Given would be anywhere near the top 25.

1. Thierry Henry

2. Alan Shearer

3. Ryan Giggs

4. Dennis Bergkamp

5. Cristiano Ronaldo

6. Frank Lampard

7. Steve Gerrard

8. Paul Scholes

9. Patrick Vieira

10. Peter Schmeichel

11. Eric Cantona

12. Michael Owen

13. Wayne Rooney

14. Matt Le Tissier

15. Roy Keane

16. Andy Cole

17. Tony Adams

18. David Beckham

19. John Terry

20. Gary Neville

21. David Seaman

22. Robbie Fowler

23. Brad Friedel

24. Ruud Van Nistelrooy

25. Shay Given

33. Edwin Van Der Sar

[Amo]

Exactly. It's like arguing that Matthews and Finney couldn't be considered in the top ten best players in English football, because one played for Preston and the other for Stoke and Blackpool.

It's really not, Den. Different time, different game.

[92er]

I don't agree, Sir Roger did not have a weakness in his game

Pressure?

He was a superb keeper who I really rated, so I was really surprised when he was under par on occasions such as the re-arranged match against Chesterfield.

At times like that, from what I remember, he made unexpected mistakes, especially in the run up to promotion.

[Audax]

It's only really an overblown blog site but this one http://whatculture.com/sport/100-greatest-premier-league-players-of-all-time.php/15 has the following list. Interestingly it puts Brad just behind Seaman and before Shay Given. With Van Der Sar in 33rd! This is the bit of the argument that is most subjective. Personally, Shearer would be ahead of Henry. Roy Keane WELL ahead of Le Tissier. Not sure Shay Given would be anywhere near the top 25.

1. Thierry Henry

2. Alan Shearer

3. Ryan Giggs

4. Dennis Bergkamp

5. Cristiano Ronaldo

6. Frank Lampard

7. Steve Gerrard

8. Paul Scholes

9. Patrick Vieira

10. Peter Schmeichel

11. Eric Cantona

12. Michael Owen

13. Wayne Rooney

14. Matt Le Tissier

15. Roy Keane

16. Andy Cole

17. Tony Adams

18. David Beckham

19. John Terry

20. Gary Neville

21. David Seaman

22. Robbie Fowler

23. Brad Friedel

24. Ruud Van Nistelrooy

25. Shay Given

33. Edwin Van Der Sar

That's a fairly good list; #28 Teddy Sheringham, Man Utd. would not have won the Champions League without Ronaldo, that's clear, likewise, Real have not won it with Ronaldo so far but Ronaldo certainly did not have the long career of a Ryan Giggs so more or less, I think that's a good list also giving more credit to defenders. Of course in our subjective minds, we make a few changes.

Andy Cole, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Cole stellar career quite a few may overlook.

Peter Cech at #56, I think that's way off. John Barnes, I'll have to see where they place him, in the last 35 maybe. I don't see Barnes on the list.

100. Morten Gamst Pedersen - http://whatculture.com/sport/100-greatest-premier-league-players-of-all-time.php/2

[bob fleming]

Fascinating stuff today guys. Interesting time line.

[Batman.]

Nope. Still Brad by some distance.

Debate over. Wound licking exercise now for the caped crusader.

As much as I used to disagree with you, I always thought you at least had half a brain. However, you're now just part of the 'Idiot Club.'

Have a read Gordon, quote any of my points and put together a decent argument to disagree, Just like den. Go on, have a go.

[Batman.]

It' a ridiculous statement Amarillo. Anyone who watches live football for year after year, is quite capable of making their mind up of how good a player is. Not being at a top club doesn't have any bearing on the player, he is what he is. Being at a top club doesn't mean every player would make it into a top 20 list either. It's subjective.

You really are incapable of digesting my argument and responding to it. Like it or not your so called 'contribution' has been cringeworthy. I've presented my point; rip it to shreds if it's so ridiculous.

You've not been able to; all you've achieved is looking stupid all because you don't like me as a poster. You're 'argument' has never had any substance or justification.

Tell me why Friedel justifies a place in the Top 20 players of all time in the PL? I've told you why I think he doesn't. Counter it with an actual argument, as opposed to your childish rantings.

[Audax]

Tell me why Friedel justifies a place in the Top 20 players of all time in the PL? I've told you why I think he doesn't. Counter it with an actual argument, as opposed to your childish rantings.

Forgive me for jumping in the argument but arguing for Friedel like the article Stuart cited, 310 consecutive Premier League appearances.

The link shows Friedel however at #23. http://whatculture.com/sport/100-greatest-premier-league-players-of-all-time.php/17 So that is close.

Most consecutive Premier League appearances: 310

Brad Friedel’s incredible run, which stretched from 14 August 2004, ended this weekend when manager Andre Villas-Boas selected Hugo Lloris in goal, ahead of the American, for Tottenham’s game against Aston Villa.

However the all-time record for consecutive league appearances is held by Tranmere Rovers midfielder Howard Bell, who made 375 consecutive starts between 1946 and 1955 (401 including 26 FA Cup appearances).

- http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/news-and-comment/brad-friedel-and-other-incredible-premier-league-records-8202614.html?action=gallery

So where are the stats on average number of goals conceded per game?? Clean sheets? In the history of the league since '92??

For 2011-12, Friedel had 14 clean sheets. 4th, of course, that is but one year according to this: http://goalkeepingitreal.wordpress.com/2012/05/23/premiership-2011-2012-goalkeeper-awards-quadruple-award-winner-joe-hart/

It would be these kinds of stats one might present to try to prove a point, compare Friedel to other netminders, etc.

Also, this link, http://footballspeak.com/post/2013/03/11/Top-10-Goalkeepers.aspx places him #4 goalkeeper all time in the Premier League.

[yoda]

Forgive me for jumping in the argument but arguing for Friedel like the article Stuart cited, 310 consecutive Premier League appearances.

The link shows Friedel however at #23. http://whatculture.com/sport/100-greatest-premier-league-players-of-all-time.php/17 So that is close.

So where are the stats on average number of goals conceded per game?? Clean sheets? In the history of the league since '92??

For 2011-12, Friedel had 14 clean sheets. 4th, of course, that is but one year according to this: http://goalkeepingitreal.wordpress.com/2012/05/23/premiership-2011-2012-goalkeeper-awards-quadruple-award-winner-joe-hart/

It would be these kinds of stats one might present to try to prove a point, compare Friedel to other netminders, etc.

Also, this link, http://footballspeak.com/post/2013/03/11/Top-10-Goalkeepers.aspx places him #4 goalkeeper all time in the Premier League.

that will have some one flapping

[thenodrog]

As much as I used to disagree with you, I always thought you at least had half a brain. However, you're now just part of the 'Idiot Club.'

Have a read Gordon, quote any of my points and put together a decent argument to disagree, Just like den. Go on, have a go.

Cant be arsed.

Damn...Forgot again

Can't be arsed you cretin.

btw...How are you liking me replicating your style so far dikkhead?

[Mike E]

Forgive me for jumping in the argument but arguing for Friedel like the article Stuart cited, 310 consecutive Premier League appearances.

The link shows Friedel however at #23. http://whatculture.com/sport/100-greatest-premier-league-players-of-all-time.php/17 So that is close.

So where are the stats on average number of goals conceded per game?? Clean sheets? In the history of the league since '92??

For 2011-12, Friedel had 14 clean sheets. 4th, of course, that is but one year according to this: http://goalkeepingitreal.wordpress.com/2012/05/23/premiership-2011-2012-goalkeeper-awards-quadruple-award-winner-joe-hart/

It would be these kinds of stats one might present to try to prove a point, compare Friedel to other netminders, etc.

Also, this link, http://footballspeak.com/post/2013/03/11/Top-10-Goalkeepers.aspx places him #4 goalkeeper all time in the Premier League.

4th GK of all time in the PL is more like it. But compare that to the many great outfield players to have played in the PL. Assuming one gives equal credence to all positions, it would logically place Friedel at 44th in an all-time PL player list.

Now, as there is bias towards forwards, midfielders and GK's somewhat (with defenders rarely getting a look in unless TRULY exceptional with defending AND attacking), I would say it places Friedel around 30th.

I agree with Batman (shock, horror). Friedel is one of the greatest Rovers players in the PL era, most likely in anyone's top 5. But attempting to give objective rankings as best we can, I don't see Friedel in my top 20 PL players. He'd be very close, though.

1. Giggs

2. Shearer

3. Henry

4. Scholes

5. Schmeichel

6. Lampard

7. Vieira

8. Gerrard

9. Cole

10. Bergkamp

11. G. Nevilla

12. Cantona

13. Zola

14. LeTissier

15. Roy Keane

16. Terry

17. Adams

18. Beckham

19. Fowler

20. Robbie Keane

Off the top of my head, they're all players I'd put in ahead of Friedel. Just in goalies I'd still have to put Seaman and Cech in before Friedel. And that's missing out the likes of Adams, Ashley Cole, Joe Cole, RVN, possibly Given etc. Friedel would possibly make my top 30 if I thought about it more. Most likely top 40 though.

[Silencio]

Was trying to think of my all time Premier League 11 last night. I'd go...

Schmeichel

Irwin Stam Ferdinand Cole

Viera Keane

Ronaldo Scholes Henry

Drogba

I'm pretty sure on the back 7. I thought of putting Neville at right back but that would have meant leaving the right-footed Irwin out as Cole has to be there for me. Stam wasn't in England for long but I can't think of anyone who played as well as he did for those 2 or 3 years. I thought of Adams/Terry/Campbell/Vidic/Carvalho to put in ahead of Rio but I put Rio in as he has been good for so long (maybe not always at Ewood) and is still United's best defender, for me.

Keane was the best all-round midfielder to play in the league for me. Gerrard has more ability possibly but Keane was much better at the basics and was always brilliant in the Champions League. Viera is in for the same reasons as Keane, but Keane awas usually better head-to-head.

Ronaldo has to go in for his goals record and the way he developed his game. Became the best attacking header of the ball in the league alongside Drogba. Beckham was nowhere near as good but would be second choice because of how good his crossing and free kicks were in the late 90's. Scholes goes in there on the basis that I always thought he was United's best player at Ewood, I might have gone for Bergkamp there too. Henry was the best player there has been in the league full stop for a few seasons at Arsenal so goes in ahead of Giggs/Pires/Overmars and Duff on the left for me.

I wanted to put Shearer or possibly Van Nistelrooy upfront but I went for Drogba. The best and most influential big game striker there has been for me, even though the other two scored more. You might also say they were better finishers than him, so it was a difficult one. Drogba would probably be better on his own than RVN.

Gerrard, Lampard, Neville, Adam, Carvalho, Terry, Campbell, Giggs, Bergkamp, Zola, Pires, Ruud VN, Shearer are the players who would come close to that for me...

[Amo]

There weren't many CBs in PL history better than Jaap Stam, if any.

[Silencio]

There weren't many CBs in PL history better than Jaap Stam, if any.

Agreed, although I think Carvalho was pretty flawless when he was at Chelsea...

[rigger]

There weren't many CBs in PL history better than Jaap Stam, if any.

Maybe, Steve Bruce, Colin Hendry