[Archived] The Gary Bowyer Thread

[gumboots]

It's not a joke. Watching paint dry is obviously how Gary got his ideas on football tactics and style

[Iceman]

I'm hearing now that Venkys aren't happy with last season's finish, via Twitter.

they should not have been happy during the season. Its too late now to not be happy, because they are incapable of making strong decisions for the good of the club. It happened before with Kean, and now again with Bowyer. Im guessing the only reason why Appleton and Berg went quickly, was because the results were just terrible. Bowyer use to escape that, because of inconsistency with results. win one, lose one, draw one. It kept him going im afraid, and that is the problem.

at the end of the day, Bowyer failed to achieve what Venkys should have set out to achieve, and that is promotion. Venkys are to blame for not giving Bowyer instructions, of get us up, or lose your job. Maybe that would have motivated Bowyer more to push harder. Instead, he is given security assurances, and its now a relaxing situation with virtually no pressure from above.

[Blue blood]

Not wild about all this bickering - guess it's the joys of close season.

A couple of things worry me. Firstly that Bowyer hasn't met with the Lunes. Now whilst I rate neither party, the fact they haven't even met up yet is worrying in the extreme. I doubt their backing for GB has faded, so to be so disinterested and give such pathetic "backing" shows just how much disinterest/incompetence there is. If ever we needed evidence that the Loons are the root of the problem, once again, they provide it. Worrying times for Rovers...

As for Bowyer I've still yet to see an argument that suggests he is worth keeping. Virtually everyone agrees we have underperformed this season, and most people have stated promotion is the only way to solve the debt, which leads to the following conclusions:

- Bowyer couldn't take us up, and underperformed with a good team, last year. In fact in two years we've been nowhere meaningfully near the playoffs. Therefore given it'll be harder with the ffp (excuse) and Bowyer's not managed a run in better circumstances - the logical conclusion is Bowyer won't get near the needed promotion so should go.

- Alternatively we are where we are, at our natural level. But Bowyer has still underperformed with the players we have. Again using the logic if Bowyer can only get us mid-table with this team, where will he get us with a weaker squad. Given that sales are inevitable to reduce debt/be at our natural level/ asset strip - GB is not the right man, as with a weaker team continuing to get the current levels out of the squad will see us near relegation.

- Or in the very pro Bowyer case. The squad is mid-table to average Bowyer did well to get them mid-table. (A rare view but one I've heard). Well this is the squad assembled by Bowyer. Do you really want a guy who has kept who he likes and brought in over 20+ players - with a very decent wage budge - and still only manages to scrape together a bang average championship side in charge of the team. If they're average he's not getting more out of them like some managers do, nor is he good at spotting a player - so what's the benefit of him?

Don't get me wrong I'm grateful for arresting the slide towards league 1 (although I always said we'd never go down that season, there was too much quality, and too many other poor teams) but since then Bowyer hasn't done what is needed, and indeed being charitable could be best described as average. Rovers need better than that to survive, let alone succeed.

[perthblue02]

It's not a joke. Watching paint dry is obviously how Gary got his ideas on football tactics and style

Good at papering over the cracks though whilst glossing over faults

[Jimmy612]

Good at papering over the cracks though whilst glossing over faults

Overalls I think he's done a decent job

[tomphil]

they should not have been happy during the season. Its too late now to not be happy, because they are incapable of making strong decisions for the good of the club. It happened before with Kean, and now again with Bowyer. Im guessing the only reason why Appleton and Berg went quickly, was because the results were just terrible. Bowyer use to escape that, because of inconsistency with results. win one, lose one, draw one. It kept him going im afraid, and that is the problem.

at the end of the day, Bowyer failed to achieve what Venkys should have set out to achieve, and that is promotion. Venkys are to blame for not giving Bowyer instructions, of get us up, or lose your job. Maybe that would have motivated Bowyer more to push harder. Instead, he is given security assurances, and its now a relaxing situation with virtually no pressure from above.

Appleton and Berg went quickly because they weren't yes men and 3 or 4 factions in the background were squabbling over control of them probably. Bowyer came in quite simply because the spinning wheel stopped on him and it was his turn. He restored calm on the pitch, probably did as he was told off it, wasn't costing them money so he got the gig. Results rarely come into it with Venkys.

If everyone in the background had been behind either Berg or Appleton and they'd got the favour of Mrs D and whoever advises her I'm pretty sure we'd have seen a Kean style scenario with one of them, unsackable if the face fits.

[JBiz]

It's not a joke. Watching paint dry is obviously how Gary got his ideas on football tactics and style

Many said and still say the same about Pulis, Allardyce etc yet they are 2 of the most effective managers of current times. Mourinho is the god of results driven football, regardless of style.

We have a big guy who's good in the air. We are gonna use long ball now and then. If your idea of football is strictly pass and move, how have you managed to sit through the past 20 years? We've never played like that. Hughes turned us into a rugged unit before he did anything else. Not great to watch, but effective for purpose.

The most important thing that needs improving, particularly at home; is the results. If GB has to take a leaf out of the 70s leeds teams that kicked the opposition in the air, or the Mourinho style- so be it. I'd gladly watch "paint dry tactics" if we are picking up points.

Alternatively, if we change to tippy tappy, total Dutch football but still continue be inconsistent and to lose matches at home- I'd be just as frustrated.

[yoda]

Apparently he's now back so preparations are now under way to hit the ground jogging next season.

If only, still in France as it happens

[47er]

You're right, Sam and Pulis are two of the most effective manages of recent times.

But Bowyer isn't!

[K-Hod]

Many said and still say the same about Pulis, Allardyce etc yet they are 2 of the most effective managers of current times. Mourinho is the god of results driven football, regardless of style.

We have a big guy who's good in the air. We are gonna use long ball now and then. If your idea of football is strictly pass and move, how have you managed to sit through the past 20 years? We've never played like that. Hughes turned us into a rugged unit before he did anything else. Not great to watch, but effective for purpose.

The most important thing that needs improving, particularly at home; is the results. If GB has to take a leaf out of the 70s leeds teams that kicked the opposition in the air, or the Mourinho style- so be it. I'd gladly watch "paint dry tactics" if we are picking up points.

Alternatively, if we change to tippy tappy, total Dutch football but still continue be inconsistent and to lose matches at home- I'd be just as frustrated.

To be fair though Joe- those managers, like Hughes build from the back, and make their sides hard to beat first and foremost, like any manager of that ilk. So, whilst the product isn't essentially pretty, it's a means to an end because it's effective.

We leak goals like a sieve under Bowyer, and are the antithesis of the managers you described. If we defended like the sides of the managers you mentioned, I suspect Bowyer would have quite a few less detractors on here and in the stands!

[JBiz]

To be fair though Joe- those managers, like Hughes build from the back, and make their sides hard to beat first and foremost, like any manager of that ilk. So, whilst the product isn't essentially pretty, it's a means to an end because it's effective.

We leak goals like a sieve under Bowyer, and are the antithesis of the managers you described. If we defended like the sides of the managers you mentioned, I suspect Bowyer would have quite a few less detractors on here and in the stands!

That's the kind of tangent that I can't argue with but not necessarily the point. I made no comment about how our manager is "like" the ones I mention,

Gumboots said about style. Style is not the problem, it's substance. Painting football styles as boring because of how you perceive the difference between long/diagonal balls or a set piece mentality is wrong IMO.

Yes, GB may have made mistakes in recruitment- I hardly think it's fair to describe his transfer business as a free reign though- we've often been shopping in the bargain bin.

Could one of the managers I mention have done better? Definitely, but lest ye forget the people responsible for our club already sacked the most proven one for it.

When will this be a factor in the GB discussion for you 47er? You pine for a new man, whilst many of us can see the problems stem deeper than who picks the team sheet.

[DE.]

Yes, GB may have made mistakes in recruitment- I hardly think it's fair to describe his transfer business as a free reign though- we've often been shopping in the bargain bin..

I'm not sure this argument necessarily holds true. We have one of the most expensive squads in the league and our wage bill is right up there too. Whilst you can make arguments as to whether the players are/have been worth the money spent (in most cases, no) Bowyer has been allowed to sign Cairney, Evans, Marshall, Gestede and Duffy for fees that are about average for a Championship club.

We've only entered bargain bin territory over the past six months thanks to the transfer embargo.

[47er]

That's the kind of tangent that I can't argue with but not necessarily the point. I made no comment about how our manager is "like" the ones I mention,

Gumboots said about style. Style is not the problem, it's substance. Painting football styles as boring because of how you perceive the difference between long/diagonal balls or a set piece mentality is wrong IMO.

Yes, GB may have made mistakes in recruitment- I hardly think it's fair to describe his transfer business as a free reign though- we've often been shopping in the bargain bin.

Could one of the managers I mention have done better? Definitely, but lest ye forget the people responsible for our club already sacked the most proven one for it.

When will this be a factor in the GB discussion for you 47er? You pine for a new man, whilst many of us can see the problems stem deeper than who picks the team sheet.

A new manager is only a factor in the whole Rovers debate, I admit that. The club has been dumbed down from top to bottom, starting at the top with Dumb, Dumber and Mrs Dumbest.

[Leonard Venkhater]

This is not like any previous other 'low' though. There has always been a feeling that the owners and board have had the best interests of the club at heart and that winning football matches is the priority. If managers haven't performed or have lost the players or the majority of the fans then they have been replaced. Currently our managers are seemingly unsackable, and we appear to be a lowly item on a monthly agenda as far as the owners are concerned, despite being held to ransom by the unmanageable debt and likely liquidation if they leave. I struggle to see how we can simply put this one down to the normal ebb and flow of a football club.

My sentiments exactly. I have lost all trust, simple as that. With apologies to John Lennon:

I don't believe in Venky's

I don't believe in Bowyer

I don't believe Coar

I don't believe in Blackburn Rovers ( the shell)

[gumboots]

Excuse me. I never mentioned style. I mentioned being bored out of my mind watching the football on display at ewood. That's nothing to do with long ball or defensive football and everything to do with the fact that the whole product is boring in the extreme, because were not playing football that is in any way productive. I don't like the kind of football that has no energy or passion in it and that is what we are currently watching. We never get excitement inducing runs. We don't get crunching tackles. We don't get runs forward from midfield driving into the penalty area. We just get loads of indecisive passing sideways until someone loses the ball then the midfield and defence part and the opposition get a chance to carry the ball into our area. I don't mind purposeful long ball football, though some of allardyces less targeted hoofball football drove me crackers. I don't mind defensive football. I do mind boring non winning uninspiring rubbish. Hence why I will not get a season ticket.

[Rover_Shaun]

My sentiments exactly. I have lost all trust, simple as that. With apologies to John Lennon:

I don't believe in Venky's

I don't believe in Bowyer

I don't believe Coar

I don't believe in Blackburn Rovers ( the shell)

But but

[JBiz]

Excuse me. I never mentioned style. I mentioned being bored out of my mind watching the football on display at ewood. That's nothing to do with long ball or defensive football and everything to do with the fact that the whole product is boring in the extreme, because were not playing football that is in any way productive. I don't like the kind of football that has no energy or passion in it and that is what we are currently watching. We never get excitement inducing runs. We don't get crunching tackles. We don't get runs forward from midfield driving into the penalty area. We just get loads of indecisive passing sideways until someone loses the ball then the midfield and defence part and the opposition get a chance to carry the ball into our area. I don't mind purposeful long ball football, though some of allardyces less targeted hoofball football drove me crackers. I don't mind defensive football. I do mind boring non winning uninspiring rubbish. Hence why I will not get a season ticket.

I replied to "It's not a joke. Watching paint dry is obviously how Gary got his ideas on football tactics and style"

Apologies if you didn't mean it in the way I took it. You're completely welcome to that opinion about substance and performance, I agree that we've lacked someone to take the game by the scruff of the neck.

I just don't agree with many views that our current manager is of a "negative mindset". I prefer to go with what I see; a team that cannot consistently apply a tactic of keep errors at a minimum. Our managers inadequacy as a motivator and organiser is partly responsible, not his "ideas on tactics and style".

Whilst seeing that, I still think it's negligible even discussing replacement managers until a few questions about direction are answered properly. Would I stop going because of a managers "ideas on tactics and style"? Never. Would I stop going if we replaced GB with another from inside the club or equally under qualified? Probably.

[gumboots]

I've said many times that I'm not stopping going. I'll attend some matches if I want to and may well go to more away games. I just find having a season ticket means I feel obliged to attend games and since I no longer anticipate a good match there are days when I would rather feel free to choose. Now that might mean I miss the odd cracker, but I can live with that. I'm not giving up just yet. Just not quite as committed as previously.

[Stuart]

I just don't agree with many views that our current manager is of a "negative mindset". I prefer to go with what I see; a team that cannot consistently apply a tactic of keep errors at a minimum. Our managers inadequacy as a motivator and organiser is partly responsible, not his "ideas on tactics and style".

I couldn't disagree more strongly. You only have to look at the sound bites from players to see the absolute caution that Bowyer cherishes. Robinson post-match, Rochina (and to an extent Best) in the media and the Eastwood v Liverpool "confusion" stick in my mind. Then there are the attack minded players who are out of position or marginalised. The difference that an unbridled Dunn made on the last day was obvious. You are right that he cannot motivate or organise but that just makes things worse. Imagine as an attack-minded player being 'motivated' to play out of position or in a more defensive role- just because the manager wants to nullify the threat of the opposition. The question is why does he keep buying square pegs? It seems it's because they are all that is available in the circles where he has contacts.

[JBiz]

I couldn't disagree more strongly. You only have to look at the sound bites from players to see the absolute caution that Bowyer cherishes. Robinson post-match, Rochina (and to an extent Best) in the media and the Eastwood v Liverpool "confusion" stick in my mind. Then there are the attack minded players who are out of position or marginalised. The difference that an unbridled Dunn made on the last day was obvious. You are right that he cannot motivate or organise but that just makes things worse. Imagine as an attack-minded player being 'motivated' to play out of position or in a more defensive role- just because the manager wants to nullify the threat of the opposition. The question is why does he keep buying square pegs? It seems it's because they are all that is available in the circles where he has contacts.

I see it more of mixture of issues from confidence, dealing with pressure, motivation, organisation, opposition being tactically aware compared, square pegs, inexperience... I could go on.

To attribute that solely to the man responsible for the past two years (still managing in an environment that does not work i.e. Transfer window open and "target meeting" still not had) is barmy IMVHO.

Square pegs where guaranteed after the spunking that went on players post relegation. In the first year of GBs reign, we likely had more wages sat on the sidelines than the players in the first 11. Mainly due to mismanagement. Some you could argue unlucky, like a premier league class keeper who had 2 years out of the game due to a blood clot, and 12 months on warfarin.

I don't need to list the 20 or so players that have left since then, and the team we had in the first place had been chopped and changed by the gravy train brigade. We needed a complete refit on a negative budget.

To expect GB(who is admittedly under qualified) to completely overhaul every position without being able to spend what he sold, to find free bargains aplenty, to systematically find quality in every position...

The transfer business has never been that good. Maybe Kenny and Sparky but the likelihood of us getting someone of that ilk? Other things would need to change first at the club e.g. The boardroom "confusion". I also rather use my eyes than ears- especially if it's sound bites from players. Rochina? He proved himself as technically brilliant alright, but on occassions the most frustratingly "greedy" player. Was never equipped for this league at that time so why take his sound bites into account?

From the players we've signed in the past 2 years, we have had some good performances, albeit inconsistently. We still lack quality in several positions and have a problem with style when playing two strikers. You're advocating Dunn as if he was the answer last season, but which striker do you drop?

We've tried tunnicliffe, spearing to find the answer in CM this season and I think that is where the problem is really. We'd be more consistent, deal with pressure better and concede less if we had a physical vocal midfielder that could do both jobs. Rudy Austin?

Finding that is not easy- funnily enough the last one I saw at Ewood for us was Jermaine Jones? Might have misremembered that, schalke loan guy.

[joey_big_nose]

Finding that is not easy- funnily enough the last one I saw at Ewood for us was Jermaine Jones? Might have misremembered that, schalke loan guy.

That's the bloke. Fantastic footballer. IMO the third best central mid we had in the last fifteen years after Tugay and Savage. Proper box to box player which you very rarely see today. Shame we couldn't keep him but he was on mega money I think.

The midfield three of P Jones, Nzonzi and J Jones was very good. Unfortunately we had a total a bellend for a manager.

[tomphil]

Playing square pegs in round holes when you've just taken over and have to sort out a bloated squad is fair enough. Continuing to do this unless there's no option and indeed signing players and doing this is where it becomes a hinderance to the team balance, gelling, developing etc. Bowyer has often gone down this route just to accommodate players in the team it seems.

[Stuart]

I see it more of mixture of issues from confidence, dealing with pressure, motivation, organisation, opposition being tactically aware compared, square pegs, inexperience... I could go on.

To attribute that solely to the man responsible for the past two years (still managing in an environment that does not work i.e. Transfer window open and "target meeting" still not had) is barmy IMVHO.

We will see different things, of course. But if the manager is not solely responsible then every other club in football has a different yardstick to us, as no other manager would ever be sacked for failure of the team to meet expectations. Too often people have excused Bowyer and blamed the players. Ultimately the manager is always responsible.

Square pegs where guaranteed after the spunking that went on players post relegation. In the first year of GBs reign, we likely had more wages sat on the sidelines than the players in the first 11. Mainly due to mismanagement. Some you could argue unlucky, like a premier league class keeper who had 2 years out of the game due to a blood clot, and 12 months on warfarin.

Don't agree at all that square pegs were inevitable. Is our U21 and reserve system (a system ironically with Bowyer's fingerprints all over it) not able to produce a single player better than a creative, in-the-hole, midfielder at right back for instance neither a single shrewd loan? No, because it exposes his past failures to develop those players and he doesn't have the contact list.

I don't need to list the 20 or so players that have left since then, and the team we had in the first place had been chopped and changed by the gravy train brigade. We needed a complete refit on a negative budget.

To expect GB(who is admittedly under qualified) to completely overhaul every position without being able to spend what he sold, to find free bargains aplenty, to systematically find quality in every position...

Cobblers. Bowyer has been well backed and supported. Ask Berg what the opposite really feels like.

The transfer business has never been that good. Maybe Kenny and Sparky but the likelihood of us getting someone of that ilk? Other things would need to change first at the club e.g. The boardroom "confusion".

You do Souness a major disservice.

I also rather use my eyes than ears- especially if it's sound bites from players. Rochina? He proved himself as technically brilliant alright, but on occassions the most frustratingly "greedy" player. Was never equipped for this league at that time so why take his sound bites into account?

Was merely one of four examples to back up what I've seen. I too use my eyes. We are certainly not an attack minded team. By any stretch. To say that we are is, at best, fiction and, at worst, propaganda.

From the players we've signed in the past 2 years, we have had some good performances, albeit inconsistently. We still lack quality in several positions and have a problem with style when playing two strikers. You're advocating Dunn as if he was the answer last season, but which striker do you drop?

Dunn - if fit - would have been a major asset to our team last season. Trouble is he is no longer able to stay fit. To answer your question, the same striker that he dropped in the last game of last season. The question should be why isn't Bowyer doing everything he can to turn Marshall into as close a player as possible, deployed in the same area of the field and given an attacking remit. Answer? Because we are too cautious.

We've tried tunnicliffe, spearing to find the answer in CM this season and I think that is where the problem is really. We'd be more consistent, deal with pressure better and concede less if we had a physical vocal midfielder that could do both jobs. Rudy Austin?

Finding that is not easy- funnily enough the last one I saw at Ewood for us was Jermaine Jones? Might have misremembered that, schalke loan guy.

Don't disagree with that but Bowyer isn't looking for one. He believes he has what he needs in Lowe. Anyone commanding in our team would quickly undermine Bowyer in the dressing room because they would demand more. I think of Gerrard and Rogers on a smaller (and vastly inferior scale) scale.

[K-Hod]

The main problem we've had is bringing in players without any idea where to fit them into the team, just getting players in on loan for the sake of it in positions where we were well stocked, who don't offer anything different.

Not playing Judge and then getting rid of him was barmy. Getting Spearing in on loan was barmy. I could go on.

To then use FFP as an excuse is ludicrous, we are hamstrung by it, but only now, what about all the others brought in either on loan, or for a free that aren't in priority positions? Just signings for the sake of it.

[JBiz]

Just signings for the sake of it.

What other examples do you have? I'd agree with you on Judge but he moaned to the press after being back 5 minutes.

Only other example you gave was spearing, and I thought that made sense personally. Lost tunnicliffe, and as you rightly have surmised, we need a different type of player in the middle.

We will see different things, of course. But if the manager is not solely responsible then every other club in football has a different yardstick to us, as no other manager would ever be sacked for failure of the team to meet expectations. Too often people have excused Bowyer and blamed the players. Ultimately the manager is always responsible.

Don't agree at all that square pegs were inevitable. Is our U21 and reserve system (a system ironically with Bowyer's fingerprints all over it) not able to produce a single player better than a creative, in-the-hole, midfielder at right back for instance neither a single shrewd loan? No, because it exposes his past failures to develop those players and he doesn't have the contact list.

Cobblers. Bowyer has been well backed and supported. Ask Berg what the opposite really feels like.

You do Souness a major disservice.

Was merely one of four examples to back up what I've seen. I too use my eyes. We are certainly not an attack minded team. By any stretch. To say that we are is, at best, fiction and, at worst, propaganda.

Dunn - if fit - would have been a major asset to our team last season. Trouble is he is no longer able to stay fit. To answer your question, the same striker that he dropped in the last game of last season. The question should be why isn't Bowyer doing everything he can to turn Marshall into as close a player as possible, deployed in the same area of the field and given an attacking remit. Answer? Because we are too cautious.

Don't disagree with that but Bowyer isn't looking for one. He believes he has what he needs in Lowe. Anyone commanding in our team would quickly undermine Bowyer in the dressing room because they would demand more. I think of Gerrard and Rogers on a smaller (and vastly inferior scale) scale.

Busy this afternoon but should get chance to give a more detailed reply lately.

The krux in the difference of our views is basically I feel like GB has improved us since he took over. In the circumstances he inherited, I still rate that accomplishment quite highly. Has he delivered the necessary goods? Well that's a different discussion, but painting his philosophy as abject negativity is a little short sighted IMO.