[Archived] The Gary Bowyer Thread

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

Big Sam is a top class manager though. With decades of experience. Bowyer has only been a manager for 3 years.

We also had John Williams the best Chairman in the league. It makes a huge difference. We have Shaw now...dare we continue with this conversation.

As I said he has plenty of faults but I would put money on him having a successful career as a manager after he leaves us. To clarify working with a champion ship club with a low budget. Can't see him getting a club up to the Pl.

Well I think we fundamentally disagree on whats the most important resource for a manager. For me wage bill is far more important than transfer fees. During the John Williams era we had a negative spend on transfer fees and yet achieved enormous success, because our wage bill was competitive because he smartly insisted on plowing 85-90% of our total turnover into it.

Bowyer hasn't had the transfer budget, but he has had the wage bill which is far more important in my opinion. Soon he won't have either as the parachute payment money slowly dries up. But the last 2 years he could and should have done more with what he had. When he truly doesn't have much (i.e. all the big wage earners are gone), I can honestly see him relegating us.

[Rover_Shaun]

From 2pts off the playoffs to 11pts is a serious regression.

5.5x worse. 550% worse

[imy9]

Well I think we fundamentally disagree on whats the most important resource for a manager. For me wage bill is far more important than transfer fees. During the John Williams era we had a negative spend on transfer fees and yet achieved enormous success, because our wage bill was competitive because he smartly insisted on plowing 85-90% of our total turnover into it.

Bowyer hasn't had the transfer budget, but he has had the wage bill which is far more important in my opinion. Soon he won't have either as the parachute payment money slowly dries up. But the last 2 years he could and should have done more with what he had. When he truly doesn't have much (i.e. all the big wage earners are gone), I can honestly see him relegating us.

You say he has had the wage bill. He hasn't spent more than 10k a week on a player with regards wages (allegedly) Cairney was on 5k a week (allegedly). I'm guessing because no one knows for definite but that's the ball park he is working with. Derby and Boro and blowing people out of the water, as are Qpr. If we had Sam we would be in with a fighting chance of promotion but we are where we are.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

You say he has had the wage bill. He hasn't spent more than 10k a week on a player with regards wages (allegedly) Cairney was on 5k a week (allegedly). I'm guessing because no one knows for definite but that's the ball park he is working with. Derby and Boro and blowing people out of the water, as are Qpr. If we had Sam we would be in with a fighting chance of promotion but we are where we are.

Well obviously every season we're in this division, more teams drop in from the PL who can out-wage bill us and our chance of the play-offs drop. So Bowyer had it harder last season than he did the season before.

But I'd be very surprised if our wage bill is in fact the 9th-10th highest in the league. Rhodes is on £50k per week, and I can see Hanley, Kilgallon, Marshall, Evans, Conway and Gestede being on good wages considering they all have some link to the PL (either they've played in it or had the potential to at former clubs). Usually when you get a decent player on a free, you've tempted him with a sizeable wage.

Of course as you say nobody knows for definite, and if our wage bill truly has been Championship mid-table for the last 2 seasons then I take it all back. I just can't help but feel very doubtful about that considering we're an ex-PL club who consider it fine to pay a Championship player £50k a week.

[mustard]

The season we were relegated we spent about 12 million in transfer fees. Since then Bowyer has spent a million plus on ONE player. If he had the choice would he have bought those players or better players? We have had to cut costs too to our wage bill. Bowyer didn't sign the players but they have meant he has been severely restricted as to what he can bring in.

He still should have done better but he has done a good job.

Tomphil- two players bought 18 months ago are sold for 3 million and 7.8 million profit. Bowyer deserves the credit for this. Gestede was a poor man's Best according to Kamy when he signed lol. Cairney has improved as a player too under Bowyer. If he gets slated for the Brown's and Varneys of this world then he should get credit for the Cairneys and gestedes.

Marshall £1mill

Duffy £1.2mill

Evans £850k

etc

Let's not pretend Bowyer hasn't had a decent amount to spend. Not a huge amount, but a healthy amount, particularly early on.

He also inherited a squad with a few very talented players. Two full internationals in Hanley and Rhodes, u21 internationals in Lowe and Henley. Also players such as Best and Robbo had been capped, amongst others.

Bowyer has done well on the whole in the transfer market. The profit and loss accounts will show that but he has been appropriately backed. The bloated squad when he took over always needed trimming and so the greater number of outgoings compared to incomings is no surprise. Some very good signings, some very bad signings.

I'd argue however that we have certainly hit a glass ceiling under his stewardship. Tactically he is severely lacking and until that is rectified we are going nowhere. Some managers just aren't cut out to make it above a certain level and I believe that is the case for Bowyer. Our debts show that promotion is the only way out of this mess and every year we spend ticking away in mid-table 'stability', the more damage is being done to the club.

People say it's a gamble to remove Bowyer and appoint someone else, but isn't it a bigger gamble sticking with a manager who we are almost certain will not bring us promotion whilst debts continue piling into the hundreds of millions?

[Mike Graham]

He can't tell a good steak from a burger made with a cows anus.

[ABBEY]

[blueboy3333]

From 2pts off the playoffs to 11pts is a serious regression.

nope, we were about 3 points worse off then the previous season (QF of the Cup too). The side in 6th gained a lot more points than the side in 6th normally does. Ch-ch-ch check it out.

Hardly serious regression. We spent zilch as well, same again this year. Other teams spent a lot of money.

Last year we stood still.

[Waggy76]

The longer Mr Bowyer is here the more I like 👍 him.ok he might not be the most attacking manager.and has his favourites imo he has Rovers in his heart.been linked with jobs but never makes a noise.go GB

Linked with jobs by whom ? His agent , I suspect !

He is an awful manager who should have been shown the door 2 years ago, if he had , we may not be in the position we are in ...

[hovis boy]

We had two strikers that scored 40 goals between them and finished no where near the playoffs. Bowyer is not the manager to take this club forward.

[RevidgeBlue]

nope, we were about 3 points worse off then the previous season (QF of the Cup too). The side in 6th gained a lot more points than the side in 6th normally does. Ch-ch-ch check it out.

Hardly serious regression. We spent zilch as well, same again this year. Other teams spent a lot of money.

Last year we stood still.

Sorry but what a nonsensical argument that is.

Two seasons ago we were in play off contention.

Last season all the teams in play off contention picked up a lot more points (presumably because the sides nearer the bottom statistically performed a lot more poorly)

We failed to pick up the same sort of return and show the same sort of improvement as the other play off contenders . Therefore we got worse. To go from two points to eleven points out of the running is a massive regression. Especially when it wasn't just a case of being in with a chance but blowing up near the end. We were abysmal from November onwards meaning that the season was a dead rubber from February onwards.

[Exiled in Toronto]

There are almost two separate issues for me. The club was in a real mess when Bowyer took over and lots of these issues were driven by infighting off the field with the battle for supremacy seemingly at its peak. Bowyer handled this well and to a degree still does. The way the club is going under the Indian fools is clear to see but lest we forget Bowyer has publicly backed these people to the real annoyance of many fans.

My real problem with Bowyer for me is that I don't believe he is good enough to cut it as a manager at this level. Tactically inept, poor selection, poor use of substitutes and a plethora of other things lead me to this conclusion. I see this with my own eyes. And the real worry is that, after more than two seasons there has been very little evidence that he is learning. In line with this I have grave concerns about his coaching staff.

Along with all other Rovers fans I am desperate for us to win matches. I just don't see it happening enough with the current incumbents.

I completely agree. Everyone looks for cause and effect reasons such as too pally, doesn't wave his arms blah blah while ignoring the most simple explaination - he isn't very good at the fundamental skills of being a 1st team manager, and why should he be given his career to this point was about developing and encouraging players, quite successfully it seems.

In our world this would be a cross-functional appointment where the long-term company employee didn;t have the experience and isn't being given the training and mentoring to adapt and succeed. Which is why I find the Bowyer-hate on here (not from yourself as you stick to facts) to be distasteful. Especially as your first point is also true and not very common in the game today.

[onlyonejackwalker]

nope, we were about 3 points worse off then the previous season (QF of the Cup too). The side in 6th gained a lot more points than the side in 6th normally does. Ch-ch-ch check it out.

Hardly serious regression. We spent zilch as well, same again this year. Other teams spent a lot of money.

Last year we stood still.

Hi.

Spent zilch, but still lost 20 million?

Stand still = go backwards.

Well done to the side in 6th. The fact they got more points than normal isn't any sort of defence for us however.

The club have obviously been trying for promotion the last year or two. Marketing slogans aside, Rhodes recent comments confirm that also. People talk of the play-offs as the Holy Grail. Automatic promotion is the only guaranteed way up. We are absolutely miles off.

If the slogan was promotion via the play offs then fair enough. But it isn't. And we are nowhere near them either. So if the target is promotion via 10th, well done to all but can someone please explain it better to Bowyer.

If the target is promotion / play offs which we know to be accurate how is a salaried manager surviving whilst missing company targets so badly?

[Stuart]

They sure do Parson, however after three successive rookie managers who did extremely poorly, we needed an experienced head to get the most of a decent squad and highly paid players.

We were on a very tight deadline to try and get out of the Championship before the finanical drawbridge came up, two seasons of Bowyer learning his trade in the Blackburn Rovers of 2013- 2015 was just wrong place, wrong time.

But, ah ah, what did the Bowyer fans cry? "He needs more time".

Time we didn't have as it not only turns out but was predicted until some of us were blue in the face. Some fans wanted the best for Rovers, some fans wanted the best for Bowyer and were (are) ready to accept whatever incarnation - League One or League Two - that he brings. Because that makes you a proper fan apparently.

[JAL]

http://m.doncasterfreepress.co.uk/sport/doncaster-rovers/doncaster-rovers-blackburn-boss-bowyer-hits-out-at-ryan-1-6694285

I said 10k a week, this suggests a lot less. Odd comment about Brown. Considering he hardly played how did he cost us league places? Now if you had said Duffy had cost us league places then that theory has some legs. Now based on that how much do you reckon Varney was on, a championship striker signed on a free on a one year deal?

Also how does a winger become a replacement for a striker?

Nothings for free Imy.

Do you not consider that its money down the drain for the three non performers with one still here surely that cant be good.

[onlyonejackwalker]

But, ah ah, what did the Bowyer fans cry? "He needs more time".

Time we didn't have as it not only turns out but was predicted until some of us were blue in the face. Some fans wanted the best for Rovers, some fans wanted the best for Bowyer and were (are) ready to accept whatever incarnation - League One or League Two - that he brings. Because that makes you a proper fan apparently.

I'm sick of the 'Bowyer needs more time' comment said with informed certainly like it actually means something. There was never any time to waste.

[JAL]

[RevidgeBlue]

I'm sick of the 'Bowyer needs more time' comment said with informed certainly like it actually means something. There was never any time to waste.

In my view you're either a good manager or you're not. Someone who has got it will generally do well regardless of age or experience. Bad managers don't usually improve with experience, they remain poor managers! Stuart Pearce being the most obvious recent example I can think of.

In Bowyer's case I thought he did sensationally well during his initial 2/3 game caretaker stint then less well in his second caretaker stint after Appleton but probably well enough to be given a chance on a permanent basis.

Season one was then pretty disappointing imo apart from a late end of season rally which bought us to within touching distance of the play off positions and led to false hope that we could maintain that end of season form of the last dozen games over the course of the following season and mount a genuine challenge.

Season two with the same players was an unmitigated disaster given the squad we had imo. It's all got progressively worse since he's been in charge.

[JBiz]

If finishing short of the playoffs is an unmitigated disaster, how would you describe the season of 2013 FA cup winners; Dave Whelans boys?

[imy9]

Marshall £1mill

Duffy £1.2mill

Evans £850k

etc

Let's not pretend Bowyer hasn't had a decent amount to spend. Not a huge amount, but a healthy amount, particularly early on.

He also inherited a squad with a few very talented players. Two full internationals in Hanley and Rhodes, u21 internationals in Lowe and Henley. Also players such as Best and Robbo had been capped, amongst others.

Bowyer has done well on the whole in the transfer market. The profit and loss accounts will show that but he has been appropriately backed. The bloated squad when he took over always needed trimming and so the greater number of outgoings compared to incomings is no surprise. Some very good signings, some very bad signings.

I'd argue however that we have certainly hit a glass ceiling under his stewardship. Tactically he is severely lacking and until that is rectified we are going nowhere. Some managers just aren't cut out to make it above a certain level and I believe that is the case for Bowyer. Our debts show that promotion is the only way out of this mess and every year we spend ticking away in mid-table 'stability', the more damage is being done to the club.

People say it's a gamble to remove Bowyer and appoint someone else, but isn't it a bigger gamble sticking with a manager who we are almost certain will not bring us promotion whilst debts continue piling into the hundreds of millions?

Cory Evans is about 750k, Duffy was 300k, for him to get to 1.2 million Rovers would have to win the league. The players you mentioned are the same ones that had us in 18th position when he took over so clearly there were fundamental flaws at the club, Inc no scouting system. Currently working at a minus 15 million budget.

The second half of your post is excellent and one that I agree with. Can't see him taking us any higher.

Nothings for free Imy.

Do you not consider that its money down the drain for the three non performers with one still here surely that cant be good.

Hold on firstly you questioned the wages of the players and said they were too much, now we are moving on draining the club. What about the 20 million in wages that has left the club because of Kean/Agnew and Co, why not moan about that instead of two players who were a risk when we signed them but in the grand scheme of things no real problem. You forgot to mention Gestede who he bought for 200k. You will make mistakes but a number of players he has bought have been top class.

[ABBEY]

If finishing short of the playoffs is an unmitigated disaster, how would you describe the season of 2013 FA cup winners; Dave Whelans boys?

Show me someone who is happy with finishing short of playoffs and I will show you a LOSER!

[Wing Wizard Windy Miller]

It seems we are going to go 4-2-3-1 this year. Unless we have a deluge of appropriate players arriving in the next week, we no longer have the players for this system.

Before Gestede, we did have some success with the formation with Rhodes playing up top, however it also highlighted the lack of Rhodes's all round game - especially away from home (lets not get into the Rhodes debate). The best performances IIRC came when King was out wide as one of the '3' with Dunn in the whole and Conway/Cairney on the other wing (Cairney also played in the whole when Dunn was out).

So could it be successful now?

We are crying out for pace, yet we have added only the French lad (who may or may not be quick). If Rhodes remains, he is nailed on to start, which means that the French lad could possibly play right wing...but would Conway be dropped?

As for the player in the whole - the 3 candidates we had (Dunn, Cairney, Rochina) have all left. Marshall could possibly do it but him aside, we have no-one.

Midfield last year was woeful. One paced and lacking any fluidity or leadership. Nothing has changed and its increasingly looking like Lowe and Williamson back together as the 'holding 2'.

Henley must start as first choice right back and I would keep Olsson at LB. CB must be Kilgallon and one of Hanley or Duffy or even better get Henry back from West Ham.

Keeper: Take your pick. They all seem much of a muchness.

So here we are, one week to go and our prestige friendly tomorrow.

We still have no midfield leader.

We have nobody who can play a bit in the middle (ie pass/dribble)

We have less pace in the side than last year.

We have lost a 20 goal striker.

I find it all the more bizarre given the players we have been trialling or had the opportunity to sign.

Would have been interesting to see:

Raya/Steele

Henley Kilgallon Hanley/Henry Olsson

Guthrie Furman

Sarpong Sema Marshall

Rhodes

A bit of leadership an passing ability in the middle. Plenty of pace and direct runners in the 'three' Not much height though so we would have had to play the ball on the deck!

Obviously though Gaz clearly has a better plan. I hope it's in place by next week.

Now Kean and Rudi have gone, how many places do we have available?

[chaddyrovers]

WWWM, I would play 4-2-3-1 with Rhodes up front with Marshall in hole and Conway and O'Sullivan/Koita on the wings.

[RevidgeBlue]

If finishing short of the playoffs is an unmitigated disaster, how would you describe the season of 2013 FA cup winners; Dave Whelans boys?

Fair point.

As I've said previously though, us performing in the manner we did with the squad we had last season is a bit like saying Moyes did well to finish 7th at Man Utd.

[Stuart]

If finishing short of the playoffs is an unmitigated disaster, how would you describe the season of 2013 FA cup winners; Dave Whelans boys?

Much like Pompey, they at least had a high to go with their low. Our high was provided by Jack Walker and the Walker era "low" was a period of genuine stability, and pride in our club and town, not pretend stability.

Venkys time, on the other hand, has brought nothing but a series of lows, each one lower than the last, regularly punctuated by periods of complete and utter embarrassment.