[Archived] Bowyer

[Baz]

Well you seem to be alternating between 2 realities here. In one you claim things are on the up. We're improving, consolidating, getting rid of players we don't need. In the other we're knackered and cutting costs because we have to so fans shouldn't expect anything.

Believe me I'm aware of the situation we've been in the last 5 months, I was predicting it all last season and saying 12/13 was our best and possibly only chance of promotion. Whilst other fans were calling for our managers to be given time and claiming we'd have a much better shot at promotion next (i.e. this) season. Well it feels to me like exactly the same thing is happening again. 9 high earners off the wage bill this summer, how many will it be next summer? The whole point is we don't have time. Last season we needed a decent manager to get promoted, this season we need a very good one, next season he'll have to be a flipping genius with what we'll have left by then.

I judge all managers and players on their past records. If they don't have a past record then I assume there's a large chance they won't be good enough, because that's reality in football. Megson has a very good past record. He managed Stockport to 8th in the 2nd tier (have a guess where they are now), he took Stoke into the 2nd tier play-off positions before inexplicably getting sacked, he promoted West Brom twice, and was the main contributor to Sheff Wednesday's promotion from League 1 a couple of years ago. He had one major failure at Bolton, but flipping heck name me a manager in football with 650 games experience who hasn't failed once.

I'm a positive fan when I can see black and white evidence to back someone up. You'll never hear me throwing banal insults at proven managers or players because they're not attractive to watch/fashionable/likeable. But what I struggle to get behind is people in the game who have never proven themselves, and we're expected to assume they're good based on nothing more than blind hope and dubious "improvements" that some fans have decided they've made.

Sheffield Wednesday fans hated him.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

Sheffield Wednesday fans hated him.

So? "At the time of his sacking he had the third best win percentage of any manager in Sheffield Wednesday's history."

Some neutrals think our fans hated Allardyce because a lot did, what does that tell you? Tells me football fans are thick.

Or maybe they aren't thick, maybe winning just isn't their number one priority. Maybe it is all an illogical popularity contest based on obscure, subjective qualities. If that's the case then yeah, lets stick with Bowyer, he's Rovers through and through which equals 50 points on the popularity scale. Megson has zero points, he just wins matches.

[DE.]

Early days on Bowyer for my money. He seems to be popular with the majority of the fans, and the players. However, Im worried about his signings. Ultimately a managers performance is judged on results, and this season (since becoming permanent), they are mixed. In no way is this a Bowyer Out message, its a dont go overboard message.

Surely it's early days for his signings as much as himself, though? To be honest I'm not thrilled by the signings either and actually think we've made a mistake in apparently relying solely on Dunn and Rochina to creatively carry us through the season, but the likes of Spurr, Kane, Cairney and Evans are looking promising. When fit I think DJ could prove useful as well, especially if Rhodes gets injured.

All any of us can do is hope for the best at this point, but overall I'd say his results are fine at the moment and should improve once injuries clear up. If we're sitting in a decent mid-table position by the time November rolls around I'll be happy with that.

[Baz]

Surely it's early days for his signings as much as himself, though? To be honest I'm not thrilled by the signings either and actually think we've made a mistake in apparently relying solely on Dunn and Rochina to creatively carry us through the season, but the likes of Spurr, Kane, Cairney and Evans are looking promising. When fit I think DJ could prove useful as well, especially if Rhodes gets injured.

All any of us can do is hope for the best at this point, but overall I'd say his results are fine at the moment and should improve once injuries clear up. If we're sitting in a decent mid-table position by the time November rolls around I'll be happy with that.

I agree with you, but im not as optimistic on the signings or potential results, but hope for the best.

[den]

It's clear there are still a lot of people on here who really have not (or don't want to) grasp the reality of our situation. Anyone who attempts to do so is called unambitious or negative.

Give over DE.

Some fans, not all, but including me, think the club could do better. That's unrealistic, or in some way out of order - is it?

[Baz]

So? "At the time of his sacking he had the third best win percentage of any manager in Sheffield Wednesday's history."

Some neutrals think our fans hated Allardyce because a lot did, what does that tell you? Tells me football fans are thick.

Or maybe they aren't thick, maybe winning just isn't their number one priority. Maybe it is all an illogical popularity contest based on obscure, subjective qualities. If that's the case then yeah, lets stick with Bowyer, he's Rovers through and through which equals 50 points on the popularity scale. Megson has zero points, he just wins matches.

3rd best win ratio in history, I think stands testament to the fact they hadn't spent many (if any?) seasons in the (old school) 3rd division.

Seem to remember they weren't so hot after being promoted too?

I'd think you would be in a minority of happy Rovers fans if we were ever to appoint Megson. (Heck I remember him turning us down as a player once, now i feel old)

[DE.]

Give over DE.

Some fans, not all, but including me, think the club could do better. That's unrealistic, or in some way out of order - is it?

It depends exactly what you're expecting den. What are your expectations, precisely? Do you expect a playoff finish this season? Mid table? What would constitute a successful season, to you, and what would you consider a failure?

[Sparky Marky]

Well you seem to be alternating between 2 realities here. In one you claim things are on the up. We're improving, consolidating, getting rid of players we don't need. In the other we're knackered and cutting costs because we have to so fans shouldn't expect anything.

Believe me I'm aware of the situation we've been in the last 5 months, I was predicting it all last season and saying 12/13 was our best and possibly only chance of promotion. Whilst other fans were calling for our managers to be given time and claiming we'd have a much better shot at promotion next (i.e. this) season. Well it feels to me like exactly the same thing is happening again. 9 high earners off the wage bill this summer, how many will it be next summer? The whole point is we don't have time. Last season we needed a decent manager to get promoted, this season we need a very good one, next season he'll have to be a flipping genius with what we'll have left by then.

I judge all managers and players on their past records. If they don't have a past record then I assume there's a large chance they won't be good enough, because that's reality in football. Megson has a very good past record. He managed Stockport to 8th in the 2nd tier (have a guess where they are now), he took Stoke into the 2nd tier play-off positions before inexplicably getting sacked, he promoted West Brom twice, and was the main contributor to Sheff Wednesday's promotion from League 1 a couple of years ago. He had one major failure at Bolton, but flipping heck name me a manager in football with 650 games experience who hasn't failed once.

I'm a positive fan when I can see black and white evidence to back someone up. You'll never hear me throwing banal insults at proven managers or players because they're not attractive to watch/fashionable/likeable. But what I struggle to get behind is people in the game who have never proven themselves, and we're expected to assume they're good based on nothing more than blind hope and dubious "improvements" that some fans have decided they've made.

This

[Mike E]

Give over DE.

Some fans, not all, but including me, think the club could do better. That's unrealistic, or in some way out of order - is it?

Depends on the context. I expect us to get 14th or higher. That doesn't mean I'd consider it a success. 14th is my minimum, top half is better, 10th and up would be quite nice and I'd love a playoff place. If we end up promoted......BAZINGA!

If we get a steady midtable finish, Bowyer has fulfilled what I expect of him and the team we have at our disposal in the context of the last few years. Top half upwards, he will have exceeded those expectations and deserve the chance to build on that imo.

I doubt there are many who differ much from that POV.

[John]

Problem is Bob, the Raos didn't come here to throw million after million at a mid table championship club. I just think, one way or another, they won't accept the current situation for very long.

You can never second guess the fools, mainly because they've been led a merry dance.

My hunch is that they will give this season a go for promotion then look to feck off.

[den]

It depends exactly what you're expecting den. What are your expectations, precisely? Do you expect a playoff finish this season? Mid table? What would constitute a successful season, to you, and what would you consider a failure?

Thinking the club can do better doesn't depend on expectations - that doesn't make sense. Better means better.

There seems to be an argument on here that people thinking that way, are somehow idiots or ultra negative.

Which is the negative one DE - the fan who thinks we can do no better than the way the club is set up and our results so far, thus the "we are where we are and better get used to it" mentality - or the fan who thinks we can and should be doing better both on the park and off it?

You can never second guess the fools, mainly because they've been led a merry dance.

My hunch is that they will give this season a go for promotion then look to feck off.

I think so too John. If they really do want PL football back at Ewood and are prepared to give it one more go, then good for them. Why would we want anything else?

[roversR4ever]

Teams are built normally over time. Even a good manager needs more than 9 games to get a team together and playing well.

Didn't Nigel Clough say it takes years. So why are we expecting Bowyer to have the team sorted in such a short time?

He will make mistakes both in tactics and transfers. Most managers do, he seems better than the last three managers we have had in my view anyway.

Unfortunately he isn't working in a bubble but at a club that has had enormous turmoil inflicted on it by its owners. Unless the team looks clueless you would want to give a manager at least a season and a half (ideally two). First season begins the build process, second season replacing some of the players that didn't work out hopefully making us stronger in the process. Learning which tactics work with that set of players.

The problem is the last few years there hasn't been a building process, simply chop and change between pretty poor managers. In my view Bowyer looked decent last year when he stepped in and seems to be better suited that Kean, Berg and Appleton.

The only positive is that at least Bowyer was in charge of the players for a short period last year and could at least start to form a judgement on those players prior to taking over.

I still have hope as I do think some of his signings look decent. Some I am not so sure on. I think he has got some things right and some things wrong tactically.

But I am far more comfortable giving him time than I was with any of the last three mangers we have had. He may not work out but I do think the balance of the squad will be better and in better shape if he did go at the end of the season than it was when he took over.

Its not his fault the squad was completely destroyed before he took over by Venkys and Kean. He is picking up the mess - unfortunately its a pretty big mess.

[47er]

Venkys have not funded promotion this season. Bowyer has cobbled together a team of freebies and cheapies, possibly capable of getting us into the top half of the table but no more imo.

Have a look back to the last BRFC team to win promotion. How many of our current lot would get in it? None?

So what's the point Venkys? Are you going to cling on for years to a team which might hold on to its Championship status or might not but which will never challenge for promotion on the current budget?

Doesn't add up.

[DE.]

Thinking the club can do better doesn't depend on expectations - that doesn't make sense. Better means better.

There seems to be an argument on here that people thinking that way, are somehow idiots or ultra negative.

Which is the negative one DE - the fan who thinks we can do no better than the way the club is set up and our results so far, thus the "we are where we are and better get used to it" mentality - or the fan who thinks we can and should be doing better both on the park and off it?

It makes perfect sense den. How can you possibly judge what is "better" unless you have some sort of expectation to build on? Of course the club can do better in an abstract sense but pretty much anything can be better. The question is whether it's realistic to believe something can be better based on present circumstances, and that will inevitably lead to an expectation of some sort. Having no expectation whatsoever means that you have no criteria for what would constitute success or failure - and how do you get better if you have no idea what would be a success or a failure ?

So again, what are your expectations for this season and at the present moment do you think the club are meeting your requirements for said expectation?

[T.J.Newton]

I'd like to see GB show some real ruthless authority(that all good managers must have) by not be afraid to sub Rhodes(if hes having one of his completely ineffectual days) or drop Dann/Hanley to give Kilgannon/songo'o a chance if we carry on conceding poor goals.

[den]

It makes perfect sense den. How can you possibly judge what is "better" unless you have some sort of expectation to build on? Of course the club can do better in an abstract sense but pretty much anything can be better. The question is whether it's realistic to believe something can be better based on present circumstances, and that will inevitably lead to an expectation of some sort. Having no expectation whatsoever means that you have no criteria for what would constitute success or failure - and how do you get better if you have no idea what would be a success or a failure ?

So again, what are your expectations for this season and at the present moment do you think the club are meeting your requirements for said expectation?

I can think of many ways the club can improve DE. I take it you can think of none?

[Guest Norbert]

What are they Den? Personally, I think Bowyer is doing OK with what he has been given. We need to get a loan or two in to cover Dunn/Rochina, but that is the only really big criticism I can level.

[AggyBlue]

I can think of many ways the club can improve DE. I take it you can think of none?

Give us some suggestions then Den

[den]

What are they Den? Personally, I think Bowyer is doing OK with what he has been given. We need to get a loan or two in to cover Dunn/Rochina, but that is the only really big criticism I can level.

You can't think of any way the club can improve Norbert? That's the point I'm making. I'm debating the argument that "people need to get realistic" about where we are with the club. "We have no reason to think we should be beating Hudds, Doncaster etc".

I could make a list of better ways of doing things and I would be amazed if you couldn't either.

[Rover_Shaun]

You can never second guess the fools, mainly because they've been led a merry dance.

My hunch is that they will give this season a go for promotion then look to feck off.

If that is the case then they are fools because once again we are entering a season where we are not geared up for promition. We are exactly where we should be for the summer budget. Not that its a bad thing considering where we could have ended up after last season.

[Guest Norbert]

You can't think of any way the club can improve Norbert? That's the point I'm making. I'm debating the argument that "people need to get realistic" about where we are with the club. "We have no reason to think we should be beating Hudds, Doncaster etc".

I could make a list of better ways of doing things and I would be amazed if you couldn't either.

Make that list. Obviously a proper boardroom structure, perhaps a good D of F to help the burden on a first time manager would be brilliant but we all know that would never happen with Venky's. Bowyer is doing OK (i.e not 100% orgasmic), but he is having to deal with 3 years of sh_t which is a lot to ask of him.

[Rover_Shaun]

Lets assume promotion is the aim of the owners and the Owners keep saying they have funds. So I will kick it off

1. Manager who knows how to get out of this league

2. Promotion budget

3. Real board structure and delegated to run the club with minimal intrusion

4. A return to the "we will only sign players if they are better than we have" ethos

5......

[Guest Norbert]

I'd have gone with that list Blue and White, but Venky's have not, and probably will not do those. So until the club is finally liberated we cannot expect such a plan to take place.

[Rover_Shaun]

So the caveat is "what can we do better with these owners"

So considering that its now or never for promotion and for the owners to get there money back what are they playing at? Is still makes no sense

[Guest Norbert]

Well it is an important caveat to make as they don't look like going. Sadly. Things can be done a lot better from top to bottom, many would agree, but that would need new owners wouldn't it?