[Archived] Bowyer

[DavidMailsTightPerm]

I'd say a yearly deficit of £27m can only mean one thing. Promotion or bust.

Just how the club is so badly set up for such a task is pure Venkys

Given all the top earners we have got rid of - are we still losing that much ?

[chaddyrovers]

Given all the top earners we have got rid of - are we still losing that much ?

no. Though accounts for Venkys are from 1

Start of April 2012 to end march 2013.

I noticed that Sparky Marky hasnt answer why Warnock would be better choice than Bowyer with the squad we got

[Majiball]

no. Though accounts for Venkys are from 1

Start of April 2012 to end march 2013.

I noticed that Sparky Marky hasnt answer why Warnock would be better choice than Bowyer with the squad we got

Warnocks been promoted 7 times, GB's not even completed one season.

Would you put your money on a horse who's never raced or one that's won 7 previously?

[arbitro]

Warnocks been promoted 7 times, GB's not even completed one season.

Would you put your money on a horse who's never raced or one that's won 7 previously?

Thats not a good analogy really as I've never known a horse that lied and cheated. He has had promotions but they are tempered by the way he handled himself at several other clubs. Stan Ternant had his card marked.

[Majiball]

But he still has them. I can see why people would like to see a more experienced man in charge given our plight. Will Gary get us promoted, who knows he may well do, but the chances of someone who has done it before, doing it again are higher than someone who hasn't.

[Rover_Shaun]

Ironically, in another universe, Kean's corrupt side would have been ignored had we been riding high in the prem

Warnock is a bit like Diouf.

[roversR4ever]

Bowyer has spent very little money on transfers/loans. In my view, given the money has had to spend he has done pretty well.

A good number seem to be doing increasingly better for us in the first team.

Spurr - done very well. Great to actually have a proper left back.

Evans - looking increasingly good each game he plays and gets the fitness and sharpness from playing. Was part of a promotion winning team and we are starting to see why. I wouldn't swap him for Jones who did ok last year for us. I was genuinely surprised to see him sold by Hull. A very good number of their fans were as well.

Cairney - again very good certainly in my view a very strong championship player who is good enough for a promotion team. My biggest worry is losing him in Jan

Kane - perhaps not quite as good as last season though he seems to be settling down again.

Taylor - ok not outstanding BUT has certainly done well enough in my view. Actually think hes a good squad player signing for a long season.

Kilgallon - again now fit and should be very good cb cover - was happy with his signing. When he gets his chance I suspect he will push our two centre backs.

Judge - again ok - looks like a squad player. Probably nothing much more but he isn't bad technically so may develop.

DJ - I think his transfer was all agreed before Bowyer - but until injury in preseason he looked like he can contribute. In fairness probably not a bad back up option for the championship. In fact I suspect a good number of teams would happily have him.

For me the dodgy signings are probably

Marrow - not sure on his signing simply because of having other players who look better defensive cm. But he is young and very cheap. Bowyer may have decided over time he may improve as well. After all Bowyer knows him well.

Songoo - again haven't seen enough of him to form a proper opinion. He could be a good signing long term as he trains more and gets more used to playing in this country. Of course he could also turn out to be poor. They certainly had him training with us a long time to form a opinion of him. So we shall see.

Marshall - I have left him to last because in terms of what we have paid for him so far hes been poor. (when you remember both Songoo and Marrow were freebies and low wages). He could be interesting because he also has genuine potential if Bowyer can get his confidence back and get his sharpness back.

When you look at the list I actually think hes done ok considering how much he has actually spent. Look at the list of players who have gone and the wages that they were likely on and it tells us enough that he has had to embark on a MASSIVE cost cutting exercise. I suspect a few more of the players we loaned out they will be hoping to shift out in Jan or after. I suspect players like Etuhu and the Portuguese lot will soon go if they can be moved out.

Murphy

Gomes

Pedersen

Orr

Givet

Formica

Olsson

Rosado

As far as I can see there aint going to be any big transfer budgets available if god forbid they did get a new manager in. So some bigger well known names would be completely put off. Bowyer is pretty obviously having to cut the wage bill after the spending on the players prior to him taking over.

God forbid Im sorry I don't want a Megson or Warnock near us at this time. The players are visibly working hard individually and as a team for Bowyer. He does seem to be working out different formations and player combinations for different games taking into account who is injured etc. There are good signs he is learning well. Any new manager now would have to take time to look at who he has available in the squad, cant sign anyone permanently until January. More than likely would not be able to loan anyone else unless he can get some off on loan.

If we are 11th now, with the injuries we have had and a new team having to bed in - why cant we climb to a higher position? I could understand it if the team had shown no signs that the team that could put in good performances. There have been signs.

Put it simply if we can be 11th now - surely as players play more alongside each other and get to know and understand each other then there is a good chance we can improve even more. Lets be blunt its a very fine line and we could have easily had quite a few more points if the team had played just a little better.

In fact Im going to say this - the days of teams easily rolling us over are gone. Evans looked better in his last game than any cm we had last year. He and Lowe played very well together and they are going to prove pretty tough opposition and really importantly because of their work rate they can allow us to play two strikers in some games. Cairney looked as good in a slightly wider role as he has in the deeper cm role we know he can pass and put a good ball in (hats of to Bowyer for having the foresight to try him in that position). Bowyer seems to have spotted how to better utilise King who is starting having a better impact this season than last in my view. Best looked really motivated. We have striker who is clinical. We all know Williamson is very good at this level. Suddenly that soft midfield belly we had last year is gone.

We have Dunn, Rochina, DJ and Robinson to return. So again that cant but help strengthen us.

My god its a vast improvement on last year.

As far as Im concerned getting in another manager is the best and simplest way to guarantee we don't get promotion this season. In fact it could really put us back badly. There is always a danger that a new manager could go badly - then where would we be looking for another one like last year.

Have we a manager that looks clueless? Is the team playing terribly? Are the players showing signs of discontent and not wanting to work hard for the manager? Surely the last game looked like a step up in performance level? Sometimes you have to give a manager time. Sometimes patience is what is required. In my view that's whats required.

[EgyptianPete]

But he still has them. I can see why people would like to see a more experienced man in charge given our plight. Will Gary get us promoted, who knows he may well do, but the chances of someone who has done it before, doing it again are higher than someone who hasn't.

So what you are saying is that the chap from reading who was a nobody manager and remember Reading were near the bottom at one stage, went through the league like a dose of salts and won promotion, on your analysis he should have been potted before he got the chance, Its all about the players and man management, if come December we are still where we are or lower then your comments may be fair enough, but you have to give the guys a chance. Next two game will give us an insight of how our season might end up, have faith.

[Majiball]

So what you are saying is that the chap from reading who was a nobody manager and remember Reading were near the bottom at one stage, went through the league like a dose of salts and won promotion, on your analysis he should have been potted before he got the chance, Its all about the players and man management, if come December we are still where we are or lower then your comments may be fair enough, but you have to give the guys a chance. Next two game will give us an insight of how our season might end up, have faith.

Perhaps you'd care to read it again?

[USABlue]

Bowyer out!!!

3 wins and these were against the bottom 2 and the second worse defence in the league.....too many people getting carried away again on this board

And that worst defence is still above us in the league

[USABlue]

Promotion. Always seems to improve teams over the years and has had one or two promotions. Yeah a dodgy time at Leeds but they've been keaned for years anyway. He would be a interesting appointment. ..I just don't think GB has it in him...sorry.

Ah yes bring in colin because he "improves teams over the years" and get rid of Bowyer after nine games silly person.

[den]

If Bowyer was left to deal with transfers himself with no guidance or restraint from anybody else then it isn't really his fault to be fair. In saying that we seem to have brought in some good players. Spurr, Kane, Evans and Cairney are all regular first teamers and performing at an acceptable level. There were definitely mistakes made in the transfer market - Marrow and Marshall spring to mind immediately - but this is still ultimately Venky's fault and not Gary's. Also worth noting we don't appear to have much in terms of funding despite our parachute payments, so we were always going to end up with some punts who were going to turn out average.

The problem IMO is not the players we brought in, but failure to move out some of the other dross clogging up the wage bill. Mainly the Portuguese contingent along with the likes of Etuhu.

You're looking for the criticism of Bowyer again DE. and that isn't what I'm getting at. Nor am I asking for appraisals of which players have stepped up to the plate - and which haven't. The whole strategy of allowing someone who had no experience in the transfer market an open hand to bring in all these players, on top of an already huge squad, was wrong. As was the huge fees paid to agents. There is no-one at the club capable of sitting down with the manager and working out which direction the club needs to go.

I'm going to leave this here, but hopefully some people will realise that when someone says this situation isn't good enough -probably for the owners as well - there is a discussion to be had. We can easily do better and be a better club - there's good reason and need for a thorough overhaul of the club - and the manager shouldn't be fireproof either.

[Steve Moss]

I'd say a yearly deficit of £27m can only mean one thing. Promotion or bust.

Just how the club is so badly set up for such a task is pure Venkys

I'd think the losses will be considerably less now with the sales and transfers. And come next summer don't we get a few more high earners off the books?

All in all, we might be challenging for promotion this season with the squad of youngsters Bowyer has put together. And if we don't, we'll be in good position to keep them together (a year more experienced) and remain within our financial means, which means we'll challenge for promotion next year with GB's lads. I think Bowyer has made all the right moves, as far as I'm concerned, and has a viable Plan A and Plan B.

The glass is more than half full.

[Majiball]

But next year we'll have 8M less income and more cost-cutting will be needed to meet FFP.

[DE.]

You're looking for the criticism of Bowyer again DE. and that isn't what I'm getting at. Nor am I asking for appraisals of which players have stepped up to the plate - and which haven't. The whole strategy of allowing someone who had no experience in the transfer market an open hand to bring in all these players, on top of an already huge squad, was wrong. As was the huge fees paid to agents. There is no-one at the club capable of sitting down with the manager and working out which direction the club needs to go.

I'm going to leave this here, but hopefully some people will realise that when someone says this situation isn't good enough -probably for the owners as well - there is a discussion to be had. We can easily do better and be a better club - there's good reason and need for a thorough overhaul of the club - and the manager shouldn't be fireproof either.

I think we can both agree the club is still not being managed in the correct way overall by the owners. Things have quietened down but there's not been enough proactive steps taken to move the club forward.

However with the above in mind I think we should also agree that Bowyer is doing well in the circumstances.

[Rover_Shaun]

Even Bayern Munich can do better. And therefore so can we.

[Gav]

How many promotions...?

I bet the loanees wouldn't be as kean. ..

Do you go to Ewood on a regular basis Sparky?

[Steve Moss]

But next year we'll have 8M less income and more cost-cutting will be needed to meet FFP.

Sure, I agree. But:

1. From an initial deficit of 27 million, how much was cut this year? And how much will be cut this January and this coming summer? A lot of high earners have left and a few more are scheduled to go, I think, leaving the young, hungry talent for Bowyer to work with and which I think he's comfortable with.

2. If FFP even legal? Last I heard, Venkys were taking legal advice and other clubs have just plain ignored it.

3. Venkys have been spending money (the contract buy-outs alone seem to have cost millions) and have avoided burdening the club with debt (it all appears to be in India secured against Indian assets) and have acted to reduce payroll at the club while allowing Bowyer [seeming] autonomy. All in all, I'm cautiously optimistic that they are well-intentioned toward the club and are beginning to recognize and correct their prior missteps. Time will tell.

[Baz]

Bowyer has brought in 13 players though, so although they may be cheap in transfer fees, the true cost in wages, signing on & agent fees means its not a cheap window by comparison to most other clubs in our league.

Personally I think the owners would be looking for play-offs as a minimum given the budget.

[den]

Sure, I agree. But:

1. From an initial deficit of 27 million, how much was cut this year? And how much will be cut this January and this coming summer? A lot of high earners have left and a few more are scheduled to go, I think, leaving the young, hungry talent for Bowyer to work with and which I think he's comfortable with.

2. If FFP even legal? Last I heard, Venkys were taking legal advice and other clubs have just plain ignored it.

3. Venkys have been spending money (the contract buy-outs alone seem to have cost millions) and have avoided burdening the club with debt (it all appears to be in India secured against Indian assets) and have acted to reduce payroll at the club while allowing Bowyer [seeming] autonomy. All in all, I'm cautiously optimistic that they are well-intentioned toward the club and are beginning to recognize and correct their prior missteps. Time will tell.

The contract buy outs have cost less than £3m, while some of the players we've lost are only out on loan.

£27m is a huge amount to recover Steve.

[T.J.Newton]

Yeah he's only achieved 7 promotions in his career. Sparky what were you thinking suggesting a successful manager!!!

Warnock + Venkys=

[Blue blood]

Now you are changing your tune. A couple of days ago you wanted rid of the manager to appoint "a better one" without having a clue as to where that "better one" was going to come from. A recipe for another disastrous appointment.

Not at all. Never said I wanted rid of him. I have always: 1) not thought that he was perfect as some were making out and 2) questioned whether Bowyer would be good enough for Rovers, or perhaps more accurately can we afford to wait to see if he comes good enough given our financial situation.

[DavidMailsTightPerm]

Marrow - not sure on his signing simply because of having other players who look better defensive cm. But he is young and very cheap. Bowyer may have decided over time he may improve as well. After all Bowyer knows him well.

Songoo - again haven't seen enough of him to form a proper opinion. He could be a good signing long term as he trains more and gets more used to playing in this country. Of course he could also turn out to be poor. They certainly had him training with us a long time to form a opinion of him. So we shall see.

Marshall - I have left him to last because in terms of what we have paid for him so far hes been poor. (when you remember both Songoo and Marrow were freebies and low wages). He could be interesting because he also has genuine potential if Bowyer can get his confidence back and get his sharpness back.

Marrow is excellent cover for centre midfield - as well as being good cover for defensive positions. It is a long season - and will be asking a lot of Cairney, Lowe and Evans to play a high pressure pressing game for 46 matches. It is the first time I can remember where we had a sub to bring on who was experienced at this level.

Marshall - very harsh to judge him so early in his career at Rovers.

Bowyer has brought in 13 players though, so although they may be cheap in transfer fees, the true cost in wages, signing on & agent fees means its not a cheap window by comparison to most other clubs in our league.

Personally I think the owners would be looking for play-offs as a minimum given the budget.

Though I am actually a fan of Bowyer - who I think has done most things right so far (lets be honest which manager does everything the fans would do ?) - I agree given our squad and pay roll we should be aiming for top 6 -whether we will achieve it is debateable - but for once I feel optimistic we are going in the right direction (I hope I still feel like that as I walk away from Ewood after tomorrows match :-) )

[roversR4ever]

Marrow is excellent cover for centre midfield - as well as being good cover for defensive positions. It is a long season - and will be asking a lot of Cairney, Lowe and Evans to play a high pressure pressing game for 46 matches. It is the first time I can remember where we had a sub to bring on who was experienced at this level.

Marshall - very harsh to judge him so early in his career at Rovers.

Though I am actually a fan of Bowyer - who I think has done most things right so far (lets be honest which manager does everything the fans would do ?) - I agree given our squad and pay roll we should be aiming for top 6 -whether we will achieve it is debateable - but for once I feel optimistic we are going in the right direction (I hope I still feel like that as I walk away from Ewood after tomorrows match :-) )

Don't get me wrong about Marshall. I was looking purely at how he has performed so far. Im not saying he wont come good. If Bowyer can get the lads confidence back we will without doubt have a quality player. As for Marrow its just purely that we have Cairney Lowe Evans and Williamson. He is a good cheap squad player.

[Steve Moss]

The contract buy outs have cost less than £3m, while some of the players we've lost are only out on loan.

£27m is a huge amount to recover Steve.

I agree.

But in the first summer, we've removed Givet, MGP, Rosado, Formica, Usai, Olsson (the good one), Murphy, Gomes and others from the wage bill. As a wild guess, this saves 10-11 million per year (35+35+20+20+10+30+35+25 per week x 52). And how much did we spend buying out Kean, Appleton and Berg, and their staff? 3-4 million? If right, then we've closed in on roughly 15 million/year in savings moving on big wage earners and having a steady manager. This does not factor in monies saved by loaning out players (such as relatively high earners, Goodwillie and Orr).

This coming summer I think Orr, Dunn, Nuno and Robinson should also be off the books.

While I'm not privy to all the financial dealings, I think we are closing the 27 million gap in a big way.