[Archived] Bowyer

[Bucksrover]

Bowyer has and will continue to make mistakes (probably involving too many defensive midfielders for my liking.) But he also gets a lot right, and he seems to love the club, so I fully support him.

Someone earlier in this thread also said Gestede is rubbish - I would say it is way to early to say. From what I have seen he has the potential to be good for us. Against Wednesday he created 2 great chances for Rhodes and 1 for himself. It is tricky for us to play 2 up top at the moment because our midfield is a bit lacking when we only play 4 in there. When Evans gets back that could change.

[davulsukur]

Hats off to Patrick and Parsons. Good posts.

[DE.]

What I find amazing is there are a few on here who continue to bash others who they perceived to advocate Allardyces departure. Yet the same people now seem to suggest they want Bowyer gone. Its pure hypocrisy. You can't take the moral high ground one minute and not the next.

The comments back are always "i'm not saying I want him sacked" (even though they are basically saying that but not willing to commit to their viewpoint) or something stupidly rhetorical like "should I not want the club to have ambition?" which completely ignores the context of the situation.

Oh, and there's the old "we have to go up this season and Bowyer won't/can't do that" ... followed by no suggestion of a realistic candidate to come in and instantly start doing a better job than Bowyer is doing. Over the next few weeks I'm sure Mackay will be the name banded about, even though the chances of Venky's hiring him or him wanting to come here are both very slim - and there's no guarantee he'd be able to do any more with our current squad and a transfer budget of £0.

[thenodrog]

That's all well and good, Jbizzle, but the club literally can't afford to 'creep' towards improvement. If Rovers don't get promoted this season, they're goosed. Bowyer made up his mind to settle for a point with over a 3rd of the match left to play. Against Sheff Wed, who have no manager and sit in the bottom three. The progress we've made since last season is quite irrelevant to whether Bowyer did everything to win that game or not. Because he didn't.

Wasn't him who took Taylor out was it? Nor was it him who decided that Dunny sit another Christmas fixture out. So Amarillo given the same circumstances what would you have done once Taylor was stretchered off?

[Stuart]

I must be reading a different thread. Can someone quote a post where it has been said that Bowyer should be sacked/replaced because I must have missed it?

I thought the essence was that people were questioning the logic in deciding to play for a point with half an hour remaining if a 0-0 match against a poor side, resulting in pressure on a match three days later against a better team.

There is a sub-plot that we either must be promoted or face financial ruin and the destruction of a side, versus business as usual with Venkys continuing to find the losses of a money pit Championship club, as well as paying all of the resulting fines, whilst getting nothing in return.

Yet I see posts talking about 'voices of reason' and describing unnamed but concerned individuals, worried about the former scenario rather than the latter as 'dim' - in a post which says "I know promotion is a must, but as Parson rightly says, it ain't happening with our finances no matter who's at the helm". What's the point in creating straw man arguments to rant about, if those who think Bowyer should have time to build also think that it's promotion or bust? Which is it?

[thenodrog]

Part of the problem is Bowyers insistence in playing two wingmen in every game. Unless they are effective, which Taylor and Marshall weren't on Thursday,

People are constantly banging on about giving JR the right service and as we all know he treats balls down the middle wirth disdain and are effectively a pass to the opposition, so maybe there is a clue there why Bowyer favours wingers.

btw..... Well harsh that given that Marshall was awarded MoM and Taylor went off on a stretcher.

[patrickvalery]

The comments back are always "i'm not saying I want him sacked" (even though they are basically saying that but not willing to commitment to their viewpoint) or something stupidly rhetorical like "should I not want the club to have ambition?" which completely ignores the context of the situation.

Oh, and there's the old "we have to go up this season and Bowyer won't/can't do that" ... followed by no suggestion of a realistic candidate to come in and instantly start doing a better job than Bowyer is doing. Over the next few weeks I'm sure Mackay will be the name banded about, even though the chances of Venky's hiring him or him wanting to come here are both very slim - and there's no guarantee he'd be able to do any more with our current squad and a transfer budget of £0.

I guess thats how they maintain such high moral standards DE.

Its one of two things which annoys me about this messageboard. If you construct your post cleverly then nobody can ever pin anything on you. Its a get out of jail free card. Some of the tripe in the Rhodes thread is a fine example.

The other is this 'I told you so' culture. Where I come from it would be considered crass to tell all and sundry when you've been proven to be correct about something. Yet some on here think its perfectly reasonable to drag up old posts of theirs to tell the world they got something right. Do some people have so little in their real lives that they seek adoration on the internet? I guess so.

[den]

You're right den. That is no reason for sticking with a manager. The reason we SHOULD stick with Gary is because he is doing a very good job in rebuilding things after three years of chaos. I don't think many fans believed that we would go from near relegation candidates to promotion certainties within twelve months. The fact that he has been told he can't add to the squad until the wage bill is reduced indicates that promotion on the cheap is the aim and that ain't going to happen no matter who the manager is.

No problem with that at all Parson, any reasoned argument is great. "Nobody else would work for these idiots" is ridiculous.

[thenodrog]

No problem with that at all Parson, any reasoned argument is great. "Nobody else would work for these idiots" is ridiculous.

I think that could be qualified by replacing the word 'else' with 'of quality' .

[Leonard Venkhater]

I must be reading a different thread. Can someone quote a post where it has been said that Bowyer should be sacked/replaced because I must have missed it?

I thought the essence was that people were questioning the logic in deciding to play for a point with half an hour remaining if a 0-0 match against a poor side, resulting in pressure on a match three days later against a better team.

There is a sub-plot that we either must be promoted or face financial ruin and the destruction of a side, versus business as usual with Venkys continuing to find the losses of a money pit Championship club, as well as paying all of the resulting fines, whilst getting nothing in return.

Yet I see posts talking about 'voices of reason' and describing unnamed but concerned individuals, worried about the former scenario rather than the latter as 'dim' - in a post which says "I know promotion is a must, but as Parson rightly says, it ain't happening with our finances no matter who's at the helm". What's the point in creating straw man arguments to rant about, if those who think Bowyer should have time to build also think that it's promotion or bust? Which is it?

In any ordinary situation, of course, it should be Bowyer and he should have time to build. In reality,stopping the rot of 3 years of total pillage and mismanagement is like turning round a super tanker etc.

It is your sub plot that is the issue for me. Is it promotion or bust.... or not? If the answer is yes, then I would suggest different behaviours were required in the close season. Also, certain actions will be required in the next transfer window.

Is the plan to remain in the Championship with a 10 point reduction? I think the behaviour in the close season might point to that. The question for me is whether that same strategy is behind a defensive, cautious approach in certain matches.

Crisis intervention or gradualism? The answer will depend on the owners analysis of the problem (ha!) and their plan to solve it.

[patrickvalery]

I must be reading a different thread. Can someone quote a post where it has been said that Bowyer should be sacked/replaced be cause I must have missed it?

I thought the essence was that people were questioning the logic in deciding to play for a point with half an hour remaining if a 0-0 match against a poor side, resulting in pressure on a match three days later against a better team.

There is a sub-plot that we either must be promoted or face financial ruin and the destruction of a side, versus business as usual with Venkys continuing to find the losses of a money pit Championship club, as well as paying all of the resulting fines, whilst getting nothing in return.

Yet I see posts talking about 'voices of reason' and describing unnamed but concerned individuals, worried about the former scenario rather than the latter as 'dim' - in a post which says "I know promotion is a must, but as Parson rightly says, it ain't happening with our finances no matter who's at the helm". What's the point in creating straw man arguments to rant about, if those who think Bowyer should have time to build also think that it's promotion or bust? Which is it?

As thats directed at me Stuart I shall reply in person. I should have said that I was expecting the 'promotion or bust response'. I thought I alluded to that by the way I wrote my post. Apologies if that was not the case. The truth is I don't know if it is promotion or bust. And neither does anyone else. We can only guess and the eductaed guess would be that if we don't get promoted then we're in a world of trouble. But that doesnt mean Bowyer should face widespread criticism. He's doing a fine job in the circumstances. We have spent next to nothing this season and face further cuts in January. Yet we aren't far off the playoffs and are doing considerably better than last year.

And as DE said, some folk box clever round here. Never saying they want Bowyer gone doesn't mean they don't. They suggest as much almost every day.

And I come back to the same point every time. When you place a bet you do so by considering lots of factors. Hence how bookies decide on the odds. Now, using that logic, if I asked you to draw up odds on Venkys and Shaw and whoever else might get involved, replacing Bowyer with someone better then what would you give me? And then what odds would you give me on that person getting promoted with a budget of £0?

Sometimes the grass isn't greener over the fence. Sometimes its a bleeding minefield.

[Leonard Venkhater]

As thats directed at me Stuart I shall reply in person. I should have said that I was expecting the 'promotion or bust response'. I thought I alluded to that by the way I wrote my post. Apologies if that was not the case. The truth is I don't know if it is promotion or bust. And neither does anyone else. We can only guess and the eductaed guess would be that if we don't get promoted then we're in a world of trouble. But that doesnt mean Bowyer should face widespread criticism. He's doing a fine job in the circumstances. We have spent next to nothing this season and face further cuts in January. Yet we aren't far off the playoffs and are doing considerably better than last year.

And as DE said, some folk box clever round here. Never saying they want Bowyer gone doesn't mean they don't. They suggest as much almost every day.

And I come back to the same point every time. When place a bet you do so by considering lots of factors. Hence how bookies decide on the odds. Now, using that logic, if I asked you to draw up odds on Venkys and Shaw and whoever else might get involved, replacing Bowyer with someone better then what would you give me? And then what odds would you give me on that person getting promoted with a budget of £0?

Sometimes the grass isn't greener over the fence. Sometimes its a bleeding minefield.

I guess we at Blackburn ought to know that more than most fans. I agree with you that we don't actually know if it is promotion or bust. My logic tells me that is probably is....but then I remember we are dealing with Venky's!

[RevidgeBlue]

Good post from Stuart, you can't have it both ways, quite a lot of people seem to be arguing that the squad isn't good enough for promotion whilst at the same time trying to argue that any shortcomings in our performances are down to Bowyer's lack of ability/experience.

Whilst essentially agreeing with Parson's post above, I don't agree with him about the standard of the squad, imo we should be capable of a play off spot minimum with this squad and I don't think you could take issue with anyone who argued that individually and collectively the players haven't consistently performed to their best this season, or that there is a possibility that another manager might be able to squeeze another 10-15% out of the players. Unfortunately however, there is also the possibility that any potential replacement might perform significantly worse than Bowyer.

Whilst I wasn't at the Boxing Day game I do think that there has been a fairly major over-reaction to a 0-0 draw at home. If we'd managed to convert one of the chances we apparently missed the mood would no doubt have been very different and it would have been no doubt generally regarded as a job well done. That said, I'm sure I'd have been very unimpressed by replacing Gestede with Williamson at 1-1 had I been there and as after the Ipswich game I think we need to see a big reaction from the manager and players and need to be a lot more positive tomorrow.

[RevidgeBlue]

In answer to Patrick valery's post the short answer is GB should most certainly not be replaced.

Do I think he is making some fundamental errors? Yes, making Lowe a fixture in central midfield, playing Cairney out wide, not playing Rochina now available.

Have I thought the same about nearly every manager we've ever had since I started watching the team 40 odd years ago? Yes!

[thenodrog]

Do I think he is making some fundamental errors? Yes, making Lowe a fixture in central midfield, playing Cairney out wide, not playing Rochina now available.

Have I thought the same about nearly every manager we've ever had since I started watching the team 40 odd years ago? Yes!

A pattern emerging perhaps Simon?

[Stuart]

We can only guess and the eductaed guess would be that if we don't get promoted then we're in a world of trouble. But that doesnt mean Bowyer should face widespread criticism. He's doing a fine job in the circumstances. We have spent next to nothing this season and face further cuts in January. Yet we aren't far off the playoffs and are doing considerably better than last year.

If as you suggest - and I am inclined to agree - that it is indeed promotion or bust, then we should not be settling for a point after an hour against Sheffield Wednesday at home. If we do then the orchestrator deserves criticism. It's that simple in my view.

And as DE said, some folk box clever round here. Never saying they want Bowyer gone doesn't mean they don't. They suggest as much almost every day.

So there aren't actually any calls for Bowyer's head? Just a preconception and an interpretation of people's critical posts. For instance, I would genuinely be surprised and insulted if I was one if those on your box-clever list because I don't want Bowyer out, I want him to accept the criticism from fans, learn from it and be much more positive next time out when in a similar situation. Not talk up a handful of boos and come out fighting. This is not Kean MkII.

Not to put too fine a point on it but this is not 3-0 up against Wolves and resting players for a future fight, resulting in frustration due to a prior 7-1 wupping, this is two big points dropped in what could be a pivotal season in the club's history.

[DE.]

Stuart, you've witnessed these types of posts first hand in the Rhodes thread so you really shouldn't be surprised the same type of posts appear in this one.

[RevidgeBlue]

Not at all Gordon, managers have always had their favourite players, one manager will have blind faith in a player, another manager wouldn't fancy him at all.

Similarly fans will rarely agree with every choice a manager makes, but ultimately whether the manager is right or not will be determined by results on the pitch.

[patrickvalery]

You were not a name I had in mind Stuart no. But as you yourself argued in the Rhodes thread, some people move the goal posts, word their posts in a certain manner or simply back track to avoid saying what they are alluding to. In that instance - Rhodes has been a failure. In this instance Bowyer should be replaced. You nor anyone else will convince me otherwise.

Its fair enough to criticise specific incidents. In fact its everyone's right to criticise whatever the hell they like. But it doesnt mean others can't argue the contrary. I happen to think for a manger in his first season at a club which is a laughing stock, he's doing well.

And his after match comment of something like "if you can't win three points you make sure you get one" sounds awful familiar. Didn't some god like ex rovers boss have a similar ethos? And I still hear some posters (again, not you) whaling over his sacking.

[Stuart]

I think you hear those voices in your head, PV.

But as you say, if nothing I say will convince you otherwise then there not much point in us discussing it further.

[patrickvalery]

I think you hear those voices in your head, PV.

But as you say, if nothing I say will convince you otherwise then there not much point in us discussing it further.

I wouldn't have thought so Stu. The doctor said I was past all that now. My firearms licence has been reinstated and I haven't dressed as Bette Midler in months!!!

[Stuart]

Cher?

[patrickvalery]

Small steps Stu. Small steps. A man needs some enjoyment at the weekends.

[Lhrover]

were unbeaten in four games now, but we do have a rough set of fixtures coming up.

[Paul]

People are constantly banging on about giving JR the right service and as we all know he treats balls down the middle wirth disdain and are effectively a pass to the opposition, so maybe there is a clue there why Bowyer favours wingers..

Bloody shame they can't put in more than one decent cross per game.

I suppose my post after the Wednesday game rekindled this debate. My point was this I'm not calling for Bowyer to be sacked but I don't believe his approach is one which will get us promoted. Now I realise some posters can see this as a hidden agenda or fence-sitting. I would argue it isn't.

I'm satisfied with what Bowyer has done but at the same time recognise it is workaday, average football which overall is devoid of excitement or entertainment. This isn't what I want to watch nor what the club needs but to call for his sacking would simply to throw us back out of the frying pan.

We are clearly settling for average which I think means administration once we are deemed safe.

I posted once before March 27th will be a very important date in Rovers calendar. I don't think many picked up on that.