[Archived] Bowyer

[dave birch]

On current form the extra 10% would see us in sixth place with 37 points.

Not too difficult to see why some supporters feel a different manager might get us up.

Oh that a change of manager came with guarantees.

Sadly they don't, so we'll have to put up with GB doing his best efforts to achieve the holy grail.

[gumboots]

This is it in a nutshell. Be very careful what you wish for. A change of manager, especially In view of who would be appointing him, is no guarantee of anything.

[DE.]

To dismiss someone's view or argument because they can't or won't name an alternative is quite disrespectful.

It's not disrespectful in the slightest, it's actually pretty reasonable. What's to stop anyone from suggesting a ridiculous viewpoint if they don't need to back it up with anything factual? People can of course have an opinion but if they aren't willing to follow through with credible suggestions I don't see why it should be taken seriously. To suggest such discussion is pointless calls into question the point of forums and debates in general. A reasoned, researched opinion will always hold more weight than a statement with no detail behind it. By your own admission you can't be bothered to research beyond your basic opinion on the manager or players so why should that point of view be taken as seriously as a person who actually does put some effort into it?

[thenodrog]

The way it works is that you advertise the job first and see who applies, then select the best candidate.

I hardly think that is the case when there is still a manager in the job. Discreet enquiries might be more like. Such a move would screw team spirit, anger the fans and bring the club to disrepute.

[Paul]

It's not disrespectful in the slightest, it's actually pretty reasonable. What's to stop anyone from suggesting a ridiculous viewpoint if they don't need to back it up with anything factual? People can of course have an opinion but if they aren't willing to follow through with credible suggestions I don't see why it should be taken seriously. To suggest such discussion is pointless calls into question the point of forums and debates in general. A reasoned, researched opinion will always hold more weight than a statement with no detail behind it. By your own admission you can't be bothered to research beyond your basic opinion on the manager or players so why should that point of view be taken as seriously as a person who actually does put some effort into it?

DE we are talking about 11 men chasing a ball round a patch of grass it doesn't require hours of research and concentrated thought nor does it call in to question the point of debates and forums. All that's need is to pitch up at Ewood for 90 minutes 23 times a year and see what is happening on the pitch.

I'll consider myself reprimanded.

[thenodrog]

On current form the extra 10% would see us in sixth place with 37 points.

Not too difficult to see why some supporters feel a different manager might get us up.

I expect if you and den had been martin edwards that you would have potted fergy early doors?

[DE.]

DE we are talking about 11 men chasing a ball round a patch of grass it doesn't require hours of research and concentrated thought nor does it call in to question the point of debates and forums. All that's need is to pitch up at Ewood for 90 minutes 23 times a year and see what is happening on the pitch.

I'll consider myself reprimanded.

I'm not trying to reprimand you Paul. What frustrates me is that there are posters on here who used to be fantastic at getting into debates who now seem to think it's acceptable to throw out statements with no weight behind them and expect their opinions to go unchallenged and be respected just because of who they are. I don't believe things should work that way, every opinion should be judged on the merit of the thought behind it. For the record I single out no poster in the above statement because I hate getting into personal disagreements, but I do like having in depth discussions and it frustrates me when I'm told an opinion should be treated as important when the person refuses back it up with anything meaningful. It's more irritating when you know that person could if they wanted to, it just smacks of an unwillingness to put any effort into an argument and if everybody did the same it would reduce the forum to little more than the comments section in the LT.

I'm also incredulous when I read that discussing the managers who could come in to replace Bowyer is "pointless". For goodness sake, what could be more relevant? An answer of "somebody more experienced" leaves more questions than answers. Surely to discuss something like that is the most important thing! Why would he come? What style would he implement? Would it work with the players we have? Would the guy be able to deal with Shelfy, Singh and Venky's? What would his relationship with the fans be like? Would he walk out on us relatively easily? All these questions are surely very, very important and to dismiss them as pointless is staggering to me.

[Harrier7]

. I feel we need a creative midfielder, can I name one? No. Am I interested to name one? No. It's my opinion if we had a young David Dunn type in the side we would do much better but I have too many other things in my life to analyse who and I lack the extensive knowledge of available players.

You could do with Jimmy Ryan, nearest I've seen to David Dunn in his prime. Currently driving Chesterfield's promotion push from midfield, but rumoured to be on Leeds's radar, with the Spireites fans fearful that he could be tempted away.

[Paul]

I expect if you and den had been martin edwards that you would have potted fergy early doors?

At no stage have I, or den as far as I've read, suggested Bowyer should be potted. I think a better manager would be more likely to get us promoted. If we can get a better manager we should, if not stick with Gary Bowyer.

[Paul]

I'm not trying to reprimand you Paul. What frustrates me is that there are posters on here who used to be fantastic at getting into debates who now seem to think it's acceptable to throw out statements with no weight behind them and expect their opinions to go unchallenged and be respected just because of who they are. I don't believe things should work that way, every opinion should be judged on the merit of the thought behind it. For the record I single out no poster in the above statement because I hate getting into personal disagreements, but I do like having in depth discussions and it frustrates me when I'm told an opinion should be treated as important when the person refuses back it up with anything meaningful. It's more irritating when you know that person could if they wanted to, it just smacks of an unwillingness to put any effort into an argument and if everybody did the same it would reduce the forum to little more than the comments section in the LT.

I'm also incredulous when I read that discussing the managers who could come in to replace Bowyer is "pointless". For goodness sake, what could be more relevant? An answer of "somebody more experienced" leaves more questions than answers. Surely to discuss something like that is the most important thing! Why would he come? What style would he implement? Would it work with the players we have? Would the guy be able to deal with Shelfy, Singh and Venky's? What would his relationship with the fans be like? Would he walk out on us relatively easily? All these questions are surely very, very important and to dismiss them as pointless is staggering to me.

You might like to consider the first paragraph from the view of those you consider don't meet your standards. You have just dismissed their opinions for lack of in depth research into potential managers before deciding on some possible options. You then go on to suggest some posters have too high an opinion of themselves. Personally I have neither the time nor the energy for this discussion at the standard required to avoid being dismissed as meaningless.

If people enjoy in depth discussions of long lists of managers or players who might benefit the club that's great. Myself I don't have the knowledge or insight to potential candidates abilities or personalities to manage the team or handle the Venkys etc. Consequently it is pointless in me expressing or debating the likelihood of any manager from Ferguson downwards coming to Ewood as I know little about them.

[thenodrog]

Black dog at your side again Paul? Or did Santa not bring you what you wanted for Christmas?

[Rover_Shaun]

Yet again do we all know who would be available (in and out of a job)? I certainly don't to the extent to pick out a potential replacement. That is why you advertise the position or use the clubs contacts to sound out who would be available before making the actual change. As I stated earlier managers are a strange arrogant breed with very high opinions of their own ability, in spite of any setbacks they may have had, and Rovers is still a good job. They would not be put off by venkys in the slightest (if they are they are not worth a damn) and would see it as an ideal job to rebuild their career with a club that has excellent facilites (ground, training ground) and good roots for the future (an excelllent academy).

But it is MOOT as nobody is asking for a change and the club are certainly not looking for one. What is fuelling all this is, once again, the clubs reluctance to communicate their ambitions to the fanbase. Is the goal promotion, and to wipe the debt overnight? If it is the clubs plan is laughable. Or is the clubs aim to hope for a miracle, but whilst waiting flatline and fall back into the pack for the next few generations, and hope the football money bubble bursts. Even if it was the latter I'd even have admiration for their honesty and we'd all know where we stand.

Also what is the harm in pointing out that Bowyer isn't actually doing as well as being made out? As plenty of fans have mentioned it is a RESULTS GAME and the honeymoon effect has certainly worn off. Where he may have made a pleasant change for the squad at the time from the likes of Kean, Berg and Appleton his methods have certainly become stale as far as the teams results and performances are concerned. Can he turn it around or will we just flatline to the summer? My money is on the latter as like it or not he is doing just the same as what are regarded as the worst and 2nd worst managers in rovers history. A very sobering statistic

The tables also suggest that this season was the season to aim high as the standard of the league has dropped off by nearly 10% and it's looking like it will require less points to make the playoffs.

Another reason to be irked.

[Parsonblue]

At no stage have I, or den as far as I've read, suggested Bowyer should be potted. I think a better manager would be more likely to get us promoted. If we can get a better manager we should, if not stick with Gary Bowyer.

So if a better manager - and I'm not sure how you decide if someone is going to be successful before they start the job - comes along then you would be happy for Bowyer to be potted? I'm reminded of the 1979-80 season when we had a novice manager and were in the lower half of the Third Division at Christmas when promotion was the aim. Fortunately, our Board had a bit more resolve and faith and kept the manager and we went on to be promoted that season and Howard Kendall went on to have a pretty decent managerial career.

[Rover_Shaun]

I also remember Ipswich were 6th and got relegated the season after. Hull and Blackpool were doing well at xmas and nearly got relegated or got relegated. Rovers were doing well in 98 and got relegated in 99. Bolton had a period in the sun and got relegated. Palace were crap and got promoted. Same for Burnley both a few years ago and maybe now.

[Majiball]

Well, statistically yes but there is more to it as has been said. GB's success to date has been to put out a team prepared to graft, play honestly and consistently work to the style he wants to play. He is doing far better than Kean and Berg when we look at the overall picture. This though won't win us promotion. Till Christmas I've been happy to watch the season unfold but after taking 1 point from 6, and possibly 9, think Bowyer will not take us up. The Birmingham game was one of those days, it happens, but we really should have beaten Wednesday. For those asking for alternative managers to be named I agree with den, it's pointless. I feel we need a creative midfielder, can I name one? No. Am I interested to name one? No. It's my opinion if we had a young David Dunn type in the side we would do much better but I have too many other things in my life to analyse who and I lack the extensive knowledge of available players. I never involve myself in the wish lists of players, managers, coaches as it is in my view firstly a pointless and secondly a pretty tedious discussion. I fully appreciate there are many, many fans who take great pleasure in such discussion and have no problem with that. It's good they take so much interest and gain pleasure from it. The discussion just isn't for me in the same way I'm sure my passion for cycling isn't shared by many who will just see it as boring. As a spectator there is nothing wrong with being able to see the problem and discussing it, knowing the specific individual to answer the issue is another matter. If I did know the answer I might apply to run the club. To dismiss someone's view or argument because they can't or won't name an alternative is quite disrespectful. Personally if Holloway had been appointed earlier in the season I think it could have worked. Mackay I'm not sure. I wonder if the whole Cardiff situation just makes him flavour of the month everywhere?

It's not disrespectful in the slightest, it's actually pretty reasonable. What's to stop anyone from suggesting a ridiculous viewpoint if they don't need to back it up with anything factual? People can of course have an opinion but if they aren't willing to follow through with credible suggestions I don't see why it should be taken seriously. To suggest such discussion is pointless calls into question the point of forums and debates in general. A reasoned, researched opinion will always hold more weight than a statement with no detail behind it. By your own admission you can't be bothered to research beyond your basic opinion on the manager or players so why should that point of view be taken as seriously as a person who actually does put some effort into it?

Why is it reasonable, please provide links to your research into ettiquite and protocol (you say you've done that?).

It is your opinion that not providing an alternative is unreasonable and yet people disagree, so clearly you are wrong otherwise they wouldn't.

It is pointless you have no control over it and cannot influence it in the slightest, you have zero knowledge of what can be done or achieved and yet discuss it.

You claim reasoned and well researched so please provide links, other wise your doing the same as you supposedly accuse others of.

Remember what happened when you actually watched a game? That's right you admitted you had it all wrong, great research there mate!!!

Someone write 2+2=4, you read 12313216+78946513=56584654651651

[DE.]

You might like to consider the first paragraph from the view of those you consider don't meet your standards. You have just dismissed their opinions for lack of in depth research into potential managers before deciding on some possible options. You then go on to suggest some posters have too high an opinion of themselves. Personally I have neither the time nor the energy for this discussion at the standard required to avoid being dismissed as meaningless.

If people enjoy in depth discussions of long lists of managers or players who might benefit the club that's great. Myself I don't have the knowledge or insight to potential candidates abilities or personalities to manage the team or handle the Venkys etc. Consequently it is pointless in me expressing or debating the likelihood of any manager from Ferguson downwards coming to Ewood as I know little about them.

My first paragraph seems concise and agreeable enough to me. The fact is I’m not asking anybody for an in-depth analysis of a manager. All I’m asking for is an example (even a type of manager if not an actual candidate) and a reason why the poster thinks he’d do better than Bowyer. If such a simple question can’t be answered then I see no reason to accept the opinion as a good or strong point. I certainly don’t want to turn the forum into some kind of debate club with stupidly high standards but what I’m asking for to flesh out things is very basic. It isn’t something that should take any serious football fan much time or effort. To say “we can do better than Bowyer” then follow that up with “but I can’t/won’t tell you who” is, in my opinion - and I accept this is my opinion only - almost entirely meaningless. On a discussion board, as this supposedly is, where in the world do you go from there?

Bottom line is nobody should be forced into a debate and of course they can leave their opinion as a single sentence. What’s also clear is that without any past context this opinion is only as strong as the one or two lines that sum up its content. Said opinion can be added to and bolstered by other posters but that is then no longer the original poster’s opinion. I would much rather if I challenge somebody they say outright “I don’t have enough knowledge on the subject to debate it any further with you” or simply say “I don’t have the time/patience to elaborate any further” than throw out the quite frankly absurd “it’s a pointless discussion” line which is patently wrong. It’s a pointless discussion for that person, perhaps, but not in general and the suggestion has certainly not been that it’s a pointless discussion for an individual person. I accept Paul that you personally would feel limited in such a discussion and on that basis believe it is pointless to proceed any further. I think you could add more to this than you believe but I wouldn’t pursue your opinion any further on the subject unless you directly addressed something I’d written. I’m not convinced at all that the reason for other posters refusing to elaborate is always a lack of knowledge or time, though. It seems to be a defence mechanism to avoid any targeted criticism and allow goalposts to be moved if the situation changes. See the Jordan Rhodes thread for many examples of this.

[Riverside67]

I am not advocating the removal of Bowyer but the honeymoon period is over.

A number of issues for me.

Lack of intensity and willingenss to take the game to the opposition usually means if we go behind we end up losing either at home and away. I cannot remember a single game where we have come back to win after going behind this season.

The bankruptcy of ideas of the one up front approach. Rhodes needs eiother pace or physicality to make that work and he has neither. IS it it any wonder one up is too predicatble when he cannot get away from his man or biring others into play. The opposition defences have now sussed this.

The tactical waste of one of the best finishers the club has ever had. That should be the difference between winning and losing games.

Failure to win the last two home matches versus lower teams is not acceptable. We needed to push on and ended up falling on our faces. That is the managers complete rap to me.

The continuing individual errors with repeat offenders suggests that there is no methodolgy to sort it or personal accountabilty is not something the players fear from the manager..

So far half term exam report reads must do better. Interesting stats versus 2012 posted above suggests progrees is negligible.

Time to try a different game plan as the current one is not working.

[CapeTownRover]

Malky McKay is available, well kind of available. is Holloway still available? would nobody want them right now? i like Bowyer, but if there is an opportunity to get an experienced guy in and he is willing to come, then we should go for it. promotion or bust remember

[FGS5635]

Is Malky really all that? had succes at 1 club and at a club that had good cash I might add. Not sure all this qualifies him as 'experienced' or a sure bet to improve us. Plus after working for the bond villian Tan, is he really going to make venkys his next boss?

[dingles staying down 4ever]

In normal circumstances I'd agree and say if a better manager was available then I'd consider change but after last season I cannot see how changing the manager again can be beneficial to us. The club has made it's bed and now it has to lie in it.

I agree that the club could have had better in the summer, but it was the same case with the previous 3 appointments. What happens if we bring in Holloway for example and he loses his first two matches, do we sack him? People will always see the grass is greener other there.

[chaddyrovers]

Malky McKay is available, well kind of available. is Holloway still available? would nobody want them right now? i like Bowyer, but if there is an opportunity to get an experienced guy in and he is willing to come, then we should go for it. promotion or bust remember

no chance of them coming here like Kamy have said before. dont know many this has to be said.

Its okay keep suggesting different managers but what would they change and considering the cost is being cut and probably very unlikely to be change the squad alot.

in my opinion Bowyer is good job considering he had to cut the wage bill, sign mainly free transfer players apart from the Marshall and Evans. plus has sorted out a proper scouting departmant and we are 4 points off the playoffs is pretty good in my view

[CapeTownRover]

cmon Chris, you know full well what an experienced manager will bring to season, then next season. i will say it again, i like Bowyer, but the tactical awareness and astuteness or lack there of is costing us. granted we have been slack in our defending, but at times we just needed something to change things around.

[Gav]

no chance of them coming here like Kamy have said before. dont know many this has to be said.

Its okay keep suggesting different managers but what would they change and considering the cost is being cut and probably very unlikely to be change the squad alot.

in my opinion Bowyer is good job considering he had to cut the wage bill, sign mainly free transfer players apart from the Marshall and Evans. plus has sorted out a proper scouting departmant and we are 4 points off the playoffs is pretty good in my view

With all due respect to Kamy, any manager out of work offered a decent bonus for getting us up will jump at the chance to manage the club, even with all the cr@p thats gone on over the past 3 years.

Do I think Malky or Holloway would? No they're not available, one is going to fight that idiot at Cardiff, the other has expressed a desire to spend more time with his wife and family.

Everyone laughed at Sparky Marks suggestion of bringing Warnock in, I must admit that whilst they both talk nonsense on a regular basis, I'm with Sparky on this one, he'd get a reaction from the current squad and bring some cheap tried and tested journeymen in to bolster our chances of promotion.

If they want promotion this season, or its curtains, then Warnock would be my choice.

But lets not forget we’ve got owners that are a sandwich short of a picnic, the advice to get rid of Kean was ignored and they got stung, any advice to bring in an experienced manager now will also be ignored and they’ll get stung once again.

[FGS5635]

With all due respect to Kamy, any manager out of work offered a decent bonus for getting us up will jump at the chance to manage the club, even with all the cr@p thats gone on over the past 3 years.

Do I think Malky or Holloway would? No they're not available, one is going to fight that idiot at Cardiff, the other has expressed a desire to spend more time with his wife and family.

Everyone laughed at Sparky Marks suggestion of bringing Warnock in, I must admit that whilst they both talk nonsense on a regular basis, I'm with Sparky on this one, he'd get a reaction from the current squad and bring some cheap tried and tested journeymen in to bolster our chances of promotion.

If they want promotion this season, or its curtains, then Warnock would be my choice.

But lets not forget we’ve got owners that are a sandwich short of a picnic, the advice to get rid of Kean was ignored and they got stung, any advice to bring in an experienced manager now will also be ignored and they’ll get stung once again.

Wouldnt you just love to be a fly on the wall in a warnock - venkys meeting?

[DE.]

Unfortunately in our present situation it isn't just about what manager would work with Venky's, but also what manager Venky's would want to work with. Outspoken managers like Mackay, Warnock and Holloway are highly unlikely imo. Every manager they've brought in so far has been a yes man, disappointingly including Berg and also Appleton. I can't see them opting for somebody who would speak their mind about the state of the club.