[Archived] Bowyer

[Roverthechimp]

You are complaining of a negative system but your motivation for calling it a negative system is that Cairney isn't a wide midfielder. Hence my question of whether players having the correct "label" (according to you) is essential for a system to be a system?

The other was merely a philisophical (Spelling?) question seeing as you mentioned stopped clocks in an earlier post.

[Leonard Venkhater]

So a system is no longer a system if the players in it have the wrong label on them?

Is a clock still a clock if it doesn't tell the time?

Blimey.What a great question. Are you Kwai Chang Caine?

[JBiz]

Eh?

There is no point in arguing with you, Chaddy. It's like debating with a primary school child.

And picking up on grammar is a trait of a philosopher...

You're* the only negative system I can see

[Stuart]

You are complaining of a negative system but your motivation for calling it a negative system is that Cairney isn't a wide midfielder. Hence my question of whether players having the correct "label" (according to you) is essential for a system to be a system?

The other was merely a philisophical (Spelling?) question seeing as you mentioned stopped clocks in an earlier post.

Good try but no.

As for negative system. Playing your most creative midfielder out wide and playing two holding midfielders in the centre is pretty negative in my view. He's even started sticking Dunny out wide recently.

To put it another way, I'm not sure how anyone could say that Bowyer's system, formation or tactics are 'positive'. Aside from the Leeds game perhaps but that successful experiment was soon knocked on the head. 1-0 is his wet dream, meanwhile fans are regularly made to bite their fingernails until the 95th minute - if we're lucky!

Until Jordan started to find the team working at odds rather than in harmony with his goal scoring strengths he was the one thing to get you off your seat at games. There's not much now.

Amazing how one win and, crucially, other teams not winning means that suddenly Bowyer is a brilliant tactician.

[Roverthechimp]

Blimey.What a great question. Are you Kwai Chang Caine?

Didactylos.

Remember - the turtle moves...

[Stuart]

And picking up on grammar is a trait of a philosopher...

You're* the only negative system I can see

Now you're just taking the kean out of klc.

I guess you would see that though. Clearly Bowyer is the next Pep Gladioli...

(Well, if you can't beat them...)

[Roverthechimp]

Good try but no.

As for negative system. Playing your most creative midfielder out wide and playing two holding midfielders in the centre is pretty negative in my view. He's even started sticking Dunny out wide recently.

To put it another way, I'm not sure how anyone could say that Bowyer's system, formation or tactics are 'positive'. Aside from the Leeds game perhaps but that successful experiment was soon knocked on the head. 1-0 is his wet dream, meanwhile fans are regularly made to bite their fingernails until the 95th minute - if we're lucky!

Until Jordan started to find the team working at odds rather than in harmony with his goal scoring strengths he was the one thing to get you off your seat at games. There's not much now.

Amazing how one win and, crucially, other teams not winning means that suddenly Bowyer is a brilliant tactician.

Amazing how nobody has called him a brilliant tactician but merely question your assertion that 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1 is negative because 1 of the wide players is classed by some to be a central midfielder. Amazing that you consistently refer to 1 game against a team in freefall and yet accuse others of judging on the evidence of, yep you guessed it, 1 game.

I'm amazed

[Blue n whites]

Well done GB, kept the season alive. Terrific work rate and desire. Good running from Conway wih the ball, really really pleased. Think GB has made some quality signings and has the backing of this squad, a group of honest hardworking slightly above average footballers. If you can get down to ewood and support them and it is within your means financially / time commitments then do it, they deserve it.

Definitely getting bored of the minority moaning about the same things, win our game in hand and we are one point from 6th ffs. All i wanted personally from this season was stability and to not be a laughing stock. Had that and more.

To day was Another game where we have not conceded, another game we remain unbeaten, another game where our almost entirely new look squad gels and grinds out a difficult away win.

GB has made mistakes, but he's got the important ones correct.. Teams in this league are inconsistent because they are full of average players, that's why they are in this league.

[blueboy3333]

Eh?

There is no point in arguing with you, Chaddy. It's like debating with a primary school child.

How very patronising. I think he's right though, which is maybe why you won't argue the point.

Bowyer is very limited in his choices. Without Evans, who he bought as his first choice CM, he is left with Cairney, Lowe and Willo. Cairney is undoubtedly talented with the ball at his feet, but is very very poor without the ball. Try watching him. He would offer nothing defensively which is why GB won't trust him in a 2-man centre midfield at the moment. 3 clean sheets on the bounce would suggest Bowyer has it right. Wanting to be defensively solid doesn't necessarily translate into Bowyer being 'negative' That sort of thinking is simplistic at best and at worst shows you up to be a bit of an ignoramus. Ooh how patronising of me!

Considering the dysfunctional garbage that Bowyer inherited i think he's doing a fantastic job. His signings have been excellent, he's got rid of most of the vermin and the results have been good. Being only 4 points from the play-offs only 12 months on from looking certainties to be relegated into the 3rd teir (which Bowyer saved us from), whilst simultaneously having to rebuild the whole club, is a fantastic effort.

I'd imagine next season he'll do an even better job once he has a settled team full of his own players. It took Kean & co nearly 3 years to destroy our club, it will take Bowyer more than 12 months to rebuild it.

But...no...lets base the success of his year-long tenure on who he plays in centre mid whilst he waits for his first choice midfielder to return. You know the one i mean, Evans, the one he bought so he wouldn't have to play Willo, the one he didn't buy.

[Riverside67]

Fair do's to GB for getting the required result today. I honestly did not believe we would be good enough v Reading given their recent form.

I have been having a pop recently about his cautious approach but another clean sheet and a win under a degree of pressure today is more than I expected.

Well done GB for proving me wrong.

[The Gull]

Now you're just taking the kean out of klc.

I guess you would see that though. Clearly Bowyer is the next Pep Gladioli...

(Well, if you can't beat them...)

You keep quoting the Leeds game as an example of Bowyer lettingthe handbrake off for once and never repeating. That day the team more or less picked itself as we had no right back so one of our wide men went there, leaving a gap wide so opne of our strikers went there. Williamson played that day, Lowe couldn't so Cairney came inside, hence no other option than to play somebody out of position out wide.

The bench that day was King (coming back from injury, Rochina (never going to start a game), Mahoney (he's 12), Kilgallon (Centre half), Songo (apparently another centre half), Judge (not trusted by Bowyer to do a job it seems) and another keeper.

We won that game 2-1, Leeds where in freefall, how is that better than 1-0 at Reading who are top six with a very good home record?

If you can back your argument up than great, this is supposed to be a board of opinions, but just deciding something without substance seems to make you look like a little bit of a wind up merchant, if that was your aim then well done, you succeeded.

[chris_h]

On going through some of the Reading boards their opinion of us seemingly could be encapsulated by four words - 'dirty', 'cynical' and 'boring'. The forth is 'organised'. Who amongst us would have expected Rovers to be described as such at the start of the season?

It seems that many successful sides are built on organisational strength and defensive stability. That being the case Bowyer is doing a bang on job in hauling the club from the wreckage and chaos of the last three years. I hope he holds his nerve and ignores the detractors.

[Parsonblue]

On going through some of the Reading boards their opinion of us seemingly could be encapsulated by four words - 'dirty', 'cynical' and 'boring'. The forth is 'organised'. Who amongst us would have expected Rovers to be described as such at the start of the season?

It seems that many successful sides are built on organisational strength and defensive stability. That being the case Bowyer is doing a bang on job in hauling the club from the wreckage and chaos of the last three years. I hope he holds his nerve and ignores the detractors.

I couldn't agree more Chris. Gary is working on a long term project and gradually turning things around. Of course he will make mistakes - what manager doesn't? However, organisation on the field is the first step that needs to be taken and that we seem to be doing. Personally, I think we are light years ahead of what we were at the start of last season. We might not reach the play-offs but the team - on the field - looks so much better and off the field we seem to be trying to tackle the wage bill in a more sensible manner.

[Riverside67]

Almost sounds like shades of a properly run football club that description..................whatever next?

[JBiz]

Stuart is not a WUM- in fact he is on of the brighter posters on here.

He does have this one wrong though and he isn't the only one. I'd normally describe it as not being able to see the wood for the trees.

To take a transitional squad like he did and keep it up was an impressive feat. Next; finding some decent cheap players and getting a few big name earners out the door. After that, to have us realistically in a position to attack top 6 with 15 games left is also very impressive.

Alas the most impressive thing to me though is we are at last discussing football again (albeit abbey)

Tactics rather than rumours, team sheets rather than agents and performances rather than press conferences.

[Stuart]

But...no...lets base the success of his year-long tenure on who he plays in centre mid whilst he waits for his first choice midfielder to return. You know the one i mean, Evans, the one he bought so he wouldn't have to play Willo, the one he didn't buy.

CM is the fulcrum of the team, well, unless you are Sam Allardyce. It sounds like your preferred centre midfield is Evans and Lowe. Mine would be Evans and Cairney. No wonder we are miles apart.

The consistent picking of Lowe over Cairney in centre mid and, as a result, losing the midfield battle whilst trying to grind out 0-0 for as much of the match as possible is why I am critical of Bowyer's tactics.

To be fair Bowyer has made some good signings (maybe he was made for the reserve team/scouting role) and I'd like to see:

Marshall - Cairney - Evans - Conway (or Taylor)

No doubt you will throw injuries at me but, hand on heart, barring injury or suspension, I don't believe Bowyer would ever choose to drop Lowe and that's to the detriment of an attacking performance, whilst favouring a cautious one. Hence - 'negative' being the term I use.

A better, more ambitious manager would be getting a lot more out of these players. Perhaps Bowyer can evolve but I'm not seeing it just yet.

Bowyer has indeed steadied the ship but at what point do we look to put the sails up? I remember Jon Stead once kept us up but he was moved on once we needed to push on. At what point would people say the time would be right for Bowyer to step aside? Genuine question and not a call for him to be sacked.

[JBiz]

CM is the fulcrum of the team, well, unless you are Sam Allardyce. It sounds like your preferred centre midfield is Evans and Lowe. Mine would be Evans and Cairney. No wonder we are miles apart.

The consistent picking of Lowe over Cairney in centre mid and, as a result, losing the midfield battle whilst trying to grind out 0-0 for as much of the match as possible is why I am critical of Bowyer's tactics.

To be fair Bowyer has made some good signings (maybe he was made for the reserve team/scouting role) and I'd like to see:

Marshall - Cairney - Evans - Conway (or Taylor)

No doubt you will throw injuries at me but, hand on heart, barring injury or suspension, I don't believe Bowyer would ever choose to drop Lowe and that's to the detriment of an attacking performance, whilst favouring a cautious one. Hence - 'negative' being the term I use.

A better, more ambitious manager would be getting a lot more out of these players. Perhaps Bowyer can evolve but I'm not seeing it just yet.

Bowyer has indeed steadied the ship but at what point do we look to put the sails up? I remember Jon Stead once kept us up but he was moved on once we needed to push on. At what point would people say the time would be right for Bowyer to step aside? Genuine question and not a call for him to be sacked.

I think the last few years have made you a bit "sack happy" with the changing of managers. The very least Gary deserved was 1 year to put his spin on the team. I would want GB replaced if we sunk like a stone, started conceding goal after goal to finish 15th or something.

It's not likely though because of the checklist of basics he's ticked. One of many is making us organised and hard to beat (when was the last time you could say that about our team?) and another signing decent hungry young players.

I also advise you look at who turns defence into attack yesterday for our goal will give you a bit of a show of why a certain lad is in the team.

You only have to find my comments from September in Jason's topic to see how I think of the lad and his qualities. When Corry is match fit I can't see willo making the first 11 and that will make us better again.

Edit-

I meant to say also- the next likely manager of the club if Gary goes- considering precedent and the lack of cash;

Colin "pour me another" Hendry

[Stuart]

I think the last few years have made you a bit "sack happy" with the changing of managers. The very least Gary deserved was 1 year to put his spin on the team. I would want GB replaced if we sunk like a stone, started conceding goal after goal to finish 15th or something.

It's not likely though because of the checklist of basics he's ticked. One of many is making us organised and hard to beat (when was the last time you could say that about our team?) and another signing decent hungry young players.

I also advise you look at who turns defence into attack yesterday for our goal will give you a bit of a show of why a certain lad is in the team.

You only have to find my comments from September in Jason's topic to see how I think of the lad and his qualities. When Corry is match fit I can't see willo making the first 11 and that will make us better again.

Edit-

I meant to say also- the next likely manager of the club if Gary goes- considering precedent and the lack of cash;

Colin "pour me another" Hendry

This is why I no longer like making longer, considered posts. Not one point I made addressed. My last line also made your first one a dumb one.

You do realise the term willo or willowe means the pair of them, don't you?

Mark my words. Bowyer will never drop Lowe.

[Speedie Dived]

CM is the fulcrum of the team, well, unless you are Sam Allardyce. It sounds like your preferred centre midfield is Evans and Lowe. Mine would be Evans and Cairney. No wonder we are miles apart.

The consistent picking of Lowe over Cairney in centre mid and, as a result, losing the midfield battle whilst trying to grind out 0-0 for as much of the match as possible is why I am critical of Bowyer's tactics.

To be fair Bowyer has made some good signings (maybe he was made for the reserve team/scouting role) and I'd like to see:

Marshall - Cairney - Evans - Conway (or Taylor)

No doubt you will throw injuries at me but, hand on heart, barring injury or suspension, I don't believe Bowyer would ever choose to drop Lowe and that's to the detriment of an attacking performance, whilst favouring a cautious one. Hence - 'negative' being the term I use.

A better, more ambitious manager would be getting a lot more out of these players. Perhaps Bowyer can evolve but I'm not seeing it just yet.

Bowyer has indeed steadied the ship but at what point do we look to put the sails up? I remember Jon Stead once kept us up but he was moved on once we needed to push on. At what point would people say the time would be right for Bowyer to step aside? Genuine question and not a call for him to be sacked.

Thinking about him stepping aside should not even be a suggestion. Going off his previous dealings in two transfer windows we will have 4 more quality players added to the side and we will be a lot closer than we are now.

Clearly favours Lowe for the role he does defensively in the middle, he will never create or set the tempo in the side but that is not his role. And when Evans is fit he will come in for Williamson.

[JBiz]

This is why I no longer like making longer, considered posts. Not one point I made addressed. My last line also made your first one a dumb one.

You do realise the term willo or willowe means the pair of them, don't you?

Mark my words. Bowyer will never drop Lowe.

Do I have to point it out to you where I did address what you said?

1. Lowe is effective. Have you seen who turned yesterday's defence into attack? Do you remember my opinion of how good I think he is? This directly addresses your problem with GBs selection of Lowe. Different people different opinions maybe but Jason has some great qualities. He might not be cultured but he is a beast in other ways.

2. I answered your last point about changing manager. Simply not yet. I even gave you an outcome where I would consider it.

3. Why even bother retorting to this theory about Marshall Cairney Conway Evans. Generally those with opinion would form it from experience or expertise and you've shown neither by slating our manager for not doing something he literally couldn't due to injury or Conway not even being at the club

The reason why you don't see my replies to your comments is you do not like the replies. They do not fit in with your opinion of Lowe.

[47er]

I've read pages of stuff now on Bowyer. I must say I struggle to see the despicable comments that some seem to be complaining about, the odd one perhaps but that's life.

He doesn't get anything like the criticism Allardyce did for a start and he consistently had us where we are now but in the Premiership!

My view is that we should have gone for experience but since we didn't, we look to have found a real prospect in Bowyer so so long as we have a medium to long- term plan to gradually lift the club back to the Premiership. I'm OK with that as second best.

However if we have no such plan amd it really is promotion or bust this season, then Gary was not the right choice.

As for the rest of it, he gets plaudits when we win and brickbats when we don't. Hasn't it always been that way?

[Stuart]

3. Why even bother retorting to this theory about Marshall Cairney Conway Evans. Generally those with opinion would form it from experience or expertise and you've shown neither by slating our manager for not doing something he literally couldn't due to injury or Conway not even being at the club

My opinion is based on what I have seen when Bowyer has had the option to drop Lowe and hasn't, hence I say he never will. Which means we won't see that midfield line up as long as Lowe is fit and not suspended. I'll bet you a pint that it will never happen.

Funny though how there are all these posts defending Bowyer on the back of yesterday's win, when he was serving a touch line ban. The substitutions didn't seem all that bizarre yesterday either. Although, Drenthe could and should have turned our three points into one.

In a normal club, without the baggage of the last few years or the uncertainty of the next few, Bowyer would still be a reserve team manager.

Good. Because in my opinion he's been generally good for us this season. He does the dirty work and has bags of energy to be just about everywhere. We just haven't had a consistent attack-minded player in the centre to go with him. Hopefully that will come and we'll have a top drawer midfield for this division.

You rate Lowe but don't rate Cairney in CM?

Keaning hell.

[Doug]

Good. Because in my opinion he's been generally good for us this season. He does the dirty work and has bags of energy to be just about everywhere. We just haven't had a consistent attack-minded player in the centre to go with him. Hopefully that will come and we'll have a top drawer midfield for this division.

I agree ET, Cairney loves to go forward and looks the real deal, but he doesn't have the desire or stamina to get back. Lowe has a good engine and a team needs a player like him in the team. I look forward to Evans returning and hope he comes back playing the way he did before the injury. With Conway looking another good buy, we have the makings of a very decent midfield.

[JBiz]

My opinion is based on what I have seen when Bowyer has had the option to drop Lowe and hasn't, hence I say he never will. Which means we won't see that midfield line up as long as Lowe is fit and not suspended. I'll bet you a pint that it will never happen.

Funny though how there are all these posts defending Bowyer on the back of yesterday's win, when he was serving a touch line ban. The substitutions didn't seem all that bizarre yesterday either. Although, Drenthe could and should have turned our three points into one.

In a normal club, without the baggage of the last few years or the uncertainty of the next few, Bowyer would still be a reserve team manager.

You rate Lowe but don't rate Cairney in CM?

Keaning hell.

1. Not a normal club though are we. In a normal world with a normal club, we'd have a normal manager supported by normal owners.

2. None if this is on the back of yesterday's win Stuart, this is assessment based on a season so far.

3. In my humble opinion, not seeing Lowe's obvious qualities would be a direct reply to your last comment. You rate Cairney to play in a box to box cm role but not Lowe? "Keaning hell"

And finally your on for that pint. Clever bet though because we won't see Marshall till September.

[DE.]

He doesn't get anything like the criticism Allardyce did for a start and he consistently had us where we are now but in the Premiership!

Give it time. It started this way with Allardyce too.