[Archived] Weirdy Beardys

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

DE will probably be appalled at the creation of this topic but as its currently 7th on the most read articles on the BBC website, I doubt any claims can be made that's its more evidence of the supposed obsession of BRFCS with Islam. Clearly a good deal of the country are interested in it and as its right on our doorstep I thought I'd find out what everyone thought?

Basically the issue is that two 14 year old lads at Mount Carmel have grown beards and are refusing to shave them off. Their argument is its a religious obligation, the headmasters that it contravenes school policy.

Personally I'm on the headmasters side on this. He says that false nails, fake tan, make-up, inappropriate jewellery and, crucially in my opinion, dyed hair are also banned. If it wasn't for the prohibition on dyed hair I'd be tempted to say I don't see how facial hair is part of the school uniform so who cares. But to me they come under the same thing. If someone can have a beard, someone else should be able to have red/blue/green/etc hair, and vice versa. If the school uniform policy covers all appearance rather than just clothing, then I don't see why there should be an objection to it covering beards too.

And the religious grounds argument doesn't wash with me. You can't send your kids to a Catholic school and then defend them flouting school policy to uphold a Muslim custom.

[Amo]

Who grows a beard at 14? All I could muster was bumfluff at that age.

[DE.]

Seems like a sensible enough topic to discuss SKH, I doubt I'll be appalled until drog wades in talking about "indopaks" and such.

Beards aren't compulsory in Islam anyway, so I don't think the headmaster is doing anything wrong in this instance. When I was a lot younger I worked in retail and nobody was allowed a beard, we had two Muslim employees and neither were bothered. Don't think they had beards to begin with.

The Qur'an never states a Muslim has to grow a beard. This only appears in the highly controversial hadiths, which is in fact where a vast number of the more ridiculous Islamic "laws" come from.

Seriously, should he exist why would God give a toss about whether a person had a beard or not? It's nonsense.

[thenodrog]

Seems like a sensible enough topic to discuss SKH, I doubt I'll be appalled until drog wades in talking about "indopaks" and such.

Beards aren't compulsory in Islam anyway, so I don't think the headmaster is doing anything wrong in this instance. When I was a lot younger I worked in retail and nobody was allowed a beard, we had two Muslim employees and neither were bothered. Don't think they had beards to begin with.

The Qur'an never states a Muslim has to grow a beard. This only appears in the highly controversial hadiths, which is in fact where a vast number of the more ridiculous Islamic "laws" come from.

Seriously, should he exist why would God give a toss about whether a person had a beard or not? It's nonsense.

That sentance unsurprisingly, doesn't make any sense.

However when the kids grandaddies came here there would be no halal meat, no hijabs, no mosques within walking distance, no call to prayer, no trousers in schools for their daughters, no racial discrimination act and most pertinent of all no work. It must have been good enough to suit Allah so why isn't it good enough now?

Every day we see evermore wedges being driven in to split our society by a race and religion that will not countenance integration unless of course it is on their terms.

[jim mk2]

DE will probably be appalled at the creation of this topic but as its currently 7th on the most read articles on the BBC website, I doubt any claims can be made that's its more evidence of the supposed obsession of BRFCS with Islam. Clearly a good deal of the country are interested in it and as its right on our doorstep I thought I'd find out what everyone thought?

Basically the issue is that two 14 year old lads at Mount Carmel have grown beards and are refusing to shave them off. Their argument is its a religious obligation, the headmasters that it contravenes school policy.

Personally I'm on the headmasters side on this. He says that false nails, fake tan, make-up, inappropriate jewellery and, crucially in my opinion, dyed hair are also banned. If it wasn't for the prohibition on dyed hair I'd be tempted to say I don't see how facial hair is part of the school uniform so who cares. But to me they come under the same thing. If someone can have a beard, someone else should be able to have red/blue/green/etc hair, and vice versa. If the school uniform policy covers all appearance rather than just clothing, then I don't see why there should be an objection to it covering beards too.

And the religious grounds argument doesn't wash with me. You can't send your kids to a Catholic school and then defend them flouting school policy to uphold a Muslim custom.

Now look what you've gone and done. Alf's back on his soapbox.

[Baz]

If its not religious, then theres no debate, its down to the headmaster to decide.

(Id argue a beard is at least real, as opposed to green / blue / pink hair and fake nails / tan though)

[Mike E]

And Jim's daily theno-tease begins.

As far as the topic at hand, I'm with SKHT on this. Facial hair is easily rid of and goes against the concept of 'uniform' imo.

If it was 6th form upwards, they can grow whatever they want, wherever they want. But when at compulsory school age, the rules should be obeyed concerning basic smart appearance imo.

[Paul]

I went to a catholic school with a strong sense of discipline etc. similar, I imagine, to Mount Carmel. One lad of an ethnic background, no idea which, had facial hair, it wasn't really a beard, much earlier than the rest of us. I don't remember any fuss about it, nor was he required to shave. Interestingly white pupils were not allowed beards even in the sixth form. A popular form of "rebellion" was to grow a beard during A level final exams as the school couldn't do anything about it at that stage.

Seems to me this is a complete non-story and is just another example of too much news, the bulk of which is of little importance. This isn't discrimination, if one chooses a school then one follows the rules. End of discussion.

It may provide the Daily Mail with something else to report to its outraged readers.

[broadsword]

There is a perception (rightly or wrongly) that Islamic militants would like to be more equal than the rest of society in order to usher in some sort of new order in society, with Sharia law and all the rest of it. I can't ever imagine that happening but then a frog doesn't realise it's being boiled to death until it's too late.

It's the thin end of the wedge, would be the concern.

But these mad fellas can't even co-opt moderate muslims, so I wouldn't get too concerned just yet. They're like a muslim lunatic fringe, burning poppies and the like. Trying to manufacture conflict and hate and bring things to the boil. Just like those two morons who butchered Lee Rigby. No, I am not equating growing a beard to committing murder. But the proliferation of porta-tents and dumb beards is a bit of a militant statement, I do believe.

Hopefully these crazies will stay very much in the margins.

[Guest Norbert]

I'd be impressed at some level if these 14 year olds had full on proper beards. I only needed to shave once a month if that when I was that age. Like Bryan, I do believe that extremism of all kinds starts off working at laws and customs bit by bit until it feels strong enough to go full attack. At the risk of invoking Godwin's Law, the Nazis chipped away until Hitler was appointed Chancellor, and in the period leading up to the Enabling Act, they were at least moderating their actions in order to please their coalition partners and other right wing groups. The night of the long knives was to relieve the army about the SA as well as to put it in it's place within the Nazi party.

[K-Hod]

When I was at school in year 10, I started sprouting proper facial hair, obviously I didn't know how to shave yet!

My form teacher pulled me to one side and said 'Shave or you're not coming back until you do'.

They're just being difficult and playing the race card for the sake of it. Shock horror.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

Some good points made about the purpose of this, I think a good deal of it is of a wind-up nature and pushing the boundaries over and over again. And to be honest I share Norbert's concerns about what happens when Britain becomes a predominantly Islamic country? There's not many around the world that are particularly tolerant of similarly provocative tactics being used by non-Muslim groups.

[broadsword]

I think a good deal of it is of a wind-up nature and pushing the boundaries over and over again.

Yes, I think it is.

Defying those in authority to take action, because if they do, presumably the race card will be played.

[Blue n White Rover]

So it's okay with people to agree with the ruling regarding the beard. However, when a non-Muslim teacher is asked to abide by the laws of a Muslim school, it's an outrage.

Hypocrites.

[J*B]

Best way to solve all of this is a ban on religion.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Best way to solve all of this is a ban on religion.

Dead right, certainly in state schools.

[T.J.Newton]

Why are there so many threads related to muslim issues(such an easy target), is there nothing else going on in the world or closer to home of interest or that really gets peoples goat?

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

So it's okay with people to agree with the ruling regarding the beard. However, when a non-Muslim teacher is asked to abide by the laws of a Muslim school, it's an outrage.

Hypocrites.

Hardly. There's a big difference between pupils and teachers. If there was a Muslim teacher at Mount Carmel who had a beard, I seriously doubt anyone would dream of telling him to shave it. There probably is for all I know.

Why are there so many threads related to muslim issues(such an easy target), is there nothing else going on in the world or closer to home of interest or that really gets peoples goat?

Spent the first paragraph of the OP validating the point of this topic, DE accepted it well enough. And easy target?? What planet do you live on? Most people are scared stiff of criticising anything connected to Islam because there's hundreds of people in this country who would happily see you executed for it, and millions who seem to think it should at least be outlawed. There's about 10 people on this board with the guts to comment negatively on topics such as this, and theno has already been branded racist for being one of them. Such an easy target, ha.

[adopted scouser]

Personally I would rather we were all secular, my departed hero Chris Hitchens was right on the money. What 'offends' me about Islam is better described by Pat Condell, who puts it better than I ever could. A sensible, calm 6 minute clip - Care to disagree with any of this >

[Josh]

I wish I could grow a full beard, my van dyke is disappointing..

[Stuart]

Best way to solve all of this is a ban on religion.

It really isn't.

[J*B]

It really isn't.

You can't smoke cigarettes until aged 18, drive a car until your 17, have a beer with a meal until your 16... Yet can make a decision to follow a religion you don't fully understand, that can lead to being in dark circles with dark people and consume your entire life, at aged... 12, let's say? Your having me on.

[T.J.Newton]

Spent the first paragraph of the OP validating the point of this topic, DE accepted it well enough. And easy target?? What planet do you live on? Most people are scared stiff of criticising anything connected to Islam because there's hundreds of people in this country who would happily see you executed for it, and millions who seem to think it should at least be outlawed. There's about 10 people on this board with the guts to comment negatively on topics such as this, and theno has already been branded racist for being one of them. Such an easy target, ha.

my point being its jut going to be the same handful of posters repeating the same things they have said in the dozens of other Muslim related threads,

im not a fan of any organised religion, they're all as bad as each other in there own ways but the majority of members of those religions are just normal people harming nobody, its the leaders(local&national) of these religious organisations that are the villains of the piece.

p.s. yea it takes real "guts" to write a post on a football forum under an different name, Go Chez!

[Guest Norbert]

Some good points made about the purpose of this, I think a good deal of it is of a wind-up nature and pushing the boundaries over and over again. And to be honest I share Norbert's concerns about what happens when Britain becomes a predominantly Islamic country? There's not many around the world that are particularly tolerant of similarly provocative tactics being used by non-Muslim groups.

I doubt we'll be an Islamic country (we like booze too much for starters), but those who are Muslim are becoming more conservative, and some seem to be quite...........confrontational about it, less live and let live. There seems to be a thing about being defined as having an 'Islamic' appearance as well as following the Koran. I could probably put it in a more articulate manner, but I'm tired.

This will only get worse since the Tories etc. want more independent schools, so therefore more religious communities get together and form a 'Jewish' school, a 'Muslim' school just as there are Catholic schools C of E schools around. Eventually, everyone will have their own ghettos from a young age.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

I doubt we'll be an Islamic country (we like booze too much for starters)

Surely its a simple numbers game though? 3% in the 2001 census, 5% in the 2011 census. And that's just the people who fill it in (which presumably excludes anyone living here illegally). Close to doubling every decade would indicate it'll be the case by about 2050.