[Archived] BRFCS Podcast #69: Venkys London Ltd 2013 Accounts

[philipl]

That is what I said in the podcast pretty well.

Although I didn't go beyond £34m as my forecast for the Rovers' loss, the Trust could well be right with £40m.

[darrenrover]

Philipl, are you familiar with the company structure?

Could it be that as part of a group structure, the losses in BRFC are offset from profits elsewhere within the corporate structure and as a consequence, financially our position amongst the group structure it's no more than a wart on Venky's backside?

[philipl]

Philipl, are you familiar with the company structure?

Could it be that as part of a group structure, the losses in BRFC are offset from profits elsewhere within the corporate structure and as a consequence, financially our position amongst the group structure it's no more than a wart on Venky's backside?

The structure could not be simpler.

BRFC is 100% owned by VLL

VLL is equally owned 100% by Balaji, Venk..., Mr D and Mrs D.

We are totally outside the Group structures.

If we were part of the publicly quoted group, Rovers would wipe out all their consolidated profits and accumulated reserves. Venky's Hatcheries would be the pretty mole on the Rovers wart.

[glen9mullan]

Have heard HMRC are currently looking at 5 different cases regarding Rovers . Ain't had much time to look into what areas or the seriousness of those enquiries as I was only told last week, but will certainly try and get some Ducks in a row , ahead of a meeting with the club in a couple of weeks

[AndyNeil]

IF it transpires that HMRC are looking at 5 different cases involving Rovers, then the club could be struggling to pay one (or a combo of) PAYE/NIC, VAT, Corporation Tax. It could be that they are investigating a tax avoidance scheme (perfectly legal and not to be confused with evasion - which isn't legal) that the club have declared that they are using or they could be investigating the potential use of EBT's (employee benefit trust's) by the club.

Until GM or somebody else comes forth with some more solid information, it's difficult to assess whether this is could be a routine discussion HMRC is having with the club, or a sign of choppier waters ahead.

[lraC]

The last two posts look a bit worrying, isn't that were the Rangers troubles began? I could be wrong, but I think I recall some sort of tax loophole Rangers had, with regards paying the players, without the required tax being paid.

I sincerely hope this isn't the beginning of the end, but look what an example the Revenue made or Rangers and I'm not too sure the football league would allow a newly formed Rovers back in a the lowest level, but still as a league club.

[darrenrover]

I'm guessing to a degree but without PL handouts in the guise of parachute payments etc, would I be correct in assuming our annual turnover/income from season tickets, gate receipts and sponsorship is currently in the region of £7.5million?

And that our current annual wage bill is circa £35 million?

Please tell me I'm wrong!!

[lraC]

I'm guessing to a degree but without PL handouts in the guise of parachute payments etc, would I be correct in assuming our annual turnover/income from season tickets, gate receipts and sponsorship is currently in the region of £7.5million?

And that our current annual wage bill is circa £35 million?

Please tell me I'm wrong!!

I would say that level of Income was somewhat optimistic, unless you include income from player sales/

[darrenrover]

You may be right IraC, I was applying a simplistic approach and calculation of 12,500 season ticket holders at an ave of £350 each (£4.375 million) and an average of 2,000 walk ons and away support per week at £20 each over 23 games (£920k). That leaves £2million plus for sponsorship which I agree is a tad optimistic.

I believe the standard payment to Championship clubs for TV etc is in the region of £2million a season.

With the constraints of FFP and a current annual wage bill of circa £35 million.................?

[lraC]

You may be right IraC, I was applying a simplistic approach and calculation of 12,500 season ticket holders at an ave of £350 each (£4.375 million) and an average of 2,000 walk ons and away support per week at £20 each over 23 games (£920k). That leaves £2million plus for sponsorship which I agree is a tad optimistic.

I believe the standard payment to Championship clubs for TV etc is in the region of £2million a season.

With the constraints of FFP and a current annual wage bill of circa £35 million.................?

It is a big worry Darren the level of income in relation to the current costs and with, something serious has to happen. I personally believe that football has now become a rich mans play thing and it has been ruined. Painful as it might seem at the minute, being out of the top flight, might not be a bad things for us and I did love the old second division days, when we used to come up against much bigger clubs than us and constantly beat them. I remember Chelsea, Spurs, Aston Villa, Man City, Newcastle, Sunderland, Norwich etc all coming to Ewood as second tier clubs and leaving on the losing side. They were good days and days when we had no money, to speak of. It was a great at that level, to see Duncan McKenzie, Steve Archibald and Ossie Ardiles, to name a few pull on the blue and white shirt and entertain us. Football can be enjoyed at a lower level and we need to cut our cloth now, so the chances are we will be living those days again, so embrace and enjoy.

[darrenrover]

It is a big worry Darren the level of income in relation to the current costs and with, something serious has to happen. I personally believe that football has now become a rich mans play thing and it has been ruined. Painful as it might seem at the minute, being out of the top flight, might not be a bad things for us and I did love the old second division days, when we used to come up against much bigger clubs than us and constantly beat them. I remember Chelsea, Spurs, Aston Villa, Man City, Newcastle, Sunderland, Norwich etc all coming to Ewood as second tier clubs and leaving on the losing side. They were good days and days when we had no money, to speak of. It was a great at that level, to see Duncan McKenzie, Steve Archibald and Ossie Ardiles, to name a few pull on the blue and white shirt and entertain us. Football can be enjoyed at a lower level and we need to cut our cloth now, so the chances are we will be living those days again, so embrace and enjoy.

I enjoyed those days too and many more before when we had nowt.

Sad that life's gone more than full circle needlessly, whilst I reluctantly accept it, I will never, ever forget nor forgive the perpetrators of our downfall. Bxxtards the lot of them.

[lraC]

I enjoyed those days too and many more before when we had nowt.

Sad that life's gone more than full circle needlessly, whilst I reluctantly accept it, I will never, ever forget nor forgive the perpetrators of our downfall. Bxxtards the lot of them.

I will never forget what certain individuals have done either and in a strange way, it may well be FFP that finally rids of there unscrupulous people, so bring it on for me!

[darrenrover]

I will never forget what certain individuals have done either and in a strange way, it may well be FFP that finally rids of there unscrupulous people, so bring it on for me!

I disagree with your interpretation of FFP and your assumption with regards to the unscrupulous.

All FFP will do will safeguard indefinitely the current 'haves', whilst ensure wannabees from the likes of little old Blackburn can never have any such aspirations again.

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

1992-2010

Never forget.

[darrenrover]

1992-2010

Never forget.

Ditto, who could? Beyond wildest dreams!

[den]

It is a big worry Darren the level of income in relation to the current costs and with, something serious has to happen. I personally believe that football has now become a rich mans play thing and it has been ruined. Painful as it might seem at the minute, being out of the top flight, might not be a bad things for us and I did love the old second division days, when we used to come up against much bigger clubs than us and constantly beat them. I remember Chelsea, Spurs, Aston Villa, Man City, Newcastle, Sunderland, Norwich etc all coming to Ewood as second tier clubs and leaving on the losing side. They were good days and days when we had no money, to speak of. It was a great at that level, to see Duncan McKenzie, Steve Archibald and Ossie Ardiles, to name a few pull on the blue and white shirt and entertain us. Football can be enjoyed at a lower level and we need to cut our cloth now, so the chances are we will be living those days again, so embrace and enjoy.

I enjoyed them too, very much. Let's not kid ourselves though, the excellent days and great performances were the exception. The rule was low attendances and a lot of miserable performances. We tend to only remember the good times. I certainly didn't want to go back to that. The enjoyment was more about the mentality of, in all honesty, just a relatively small number of fans.

[broadsword]

archibald and ardiles were brought in with jack walker's money.

think it's more likely we have decades of abject misery i front of us

[lraC]

I think Archibald was signed on loan in 1987 and although Uncle Jack was putting money in, he didn't buy the club until 1991. We no doubt do have some bleak times ahead, but plenty of other clubs do too. Even the likes of Palace fans are feeling miserable. Too may big clubs with super rich owners and no affinity to the club they own, are the ones ruining the game. Unless this is somehow stopped, it will eventually kill it for the smaller clubs.

archibald and ardiles were brought in with jack walker's money.

think it's more likely we have decades of abject misery i front of us

[Parsonblue]

I enjoyed them too, very much. Let's not kid ourselves though, the excellent days and great performances were the exception. The rule was low attendances and a lot of miserable performances. We tend to only remember the good times. I certainly didn't want to go back to that. The enjoyment was more about the mentality of, in all honesty, just a relatively small number of fans.

Completely agree den. There was little glorious about the struggles during these years. Indeed, the good season was very much the exception rather than the rule. A gate of 10,000 was regarded as something exceptional as opposed to the usual 6,000 to 8,000 or lower. Distance in time has given that period a certain charm to some fans. However, let's not kid ourselves we were signing players like Danny Murphy quite regularly and for every Waggy or Archibald there was an Aston or Birchenhall who made Murphy look a class act. What people seem to forget is that when we were struggling in the Second/Third Divisions between 1966 and 1992 we were a totally different animal. We didn't have two training grounds at Brockhall to maintain and staff. We didn't have a modern stadium which is staffed six days a week. We didn't have things like two club shops or the Blues Bar and all the other things that have been developed over the past 20 years or so. We didn't have the huge numbers of sports science staff and equipment that we have today. Our reserve team and youth teams weren't playing in national competitions with all the travel that this now involves. We certainly didn't carry the same number of players that we do today with just a handful of apprentices rather than the hordes we now have at the Academy. Nor did the Reserve team have a separate squad as it does today. Burnley and Blackpool run shoestring operations by comparison and, of course, have nowhere near the huge amount of debt that the Rovers have. Quite how the club survives on our present income in the Championship beyond a year or two I'm not quite sure.

[Jimmy612]

Quite how the club survives on our present income in the Championship beyond a year or two I'm not quite sure.

Quite simple Parson. We don't.

Deep trouble and I assume the only thing that can save us would be receiving £130m or so from promotion to the PL.

[darrenrover]

Completely agree den. There was little glorious about the struggles during these years. Indeed, the good season was very much the exception rather than the rule. A gate of 10,000 was regarded as something exceptional as opposed to the usual 6,000 to 8,000 or lower. Distance in time has given that period a certain charm to some fans. However, let's not kid ourselves we were signing players like Danny Murphy quite regularly and for every Waggy or Archibald there was an Aston or Birchenhall who made Murphy look a class act. What people seem to forget is that when we were struggling in the Second/Third Divisions between 1966 and 1992 we were a totally different animal. We didn't have two training grounds at Brockhall to maintain and staff. We didn't have a modern stadium which is staffed six days a week. We didn't have things like two club shops or the Blues Bar and all the other things that have been developed over the past 20 years or so. We didn't have the huge numbers of sports science staff and equipment that we have today. Our reserve team and youth teams weren't playing in national competitions with all the travel that this now involves. We certainly didn't carry the same number of players that we do today with just a handful of apprentices rather than the hordes we now have at the Academy. Nor did the Reserve team have a separate squad as it does today. Burnley and Blackpool run shoestring operations by comparison and, of course, have nowhere near the huge amount of debt that the Rovers have. Quite how the club survives on our present income in the Championship beyond a year or two I'm not quite sure.

We can't PB and I'm personally at a loss to contemplate a solution.

[JAL]

Do Venkys in Rovers still owe Barclays any outstanding money ?

[allan]

I have not seen the Group accounts (ie the aggregate of Venkys London and BRFC plc0 but it seems to me that the £35m being reported as "owed to Venkys" is actually represented by share capital in the parent company (of which there is £66m). That being so this is a loan that Venkys can recover only by means of a capital reduction in Venkys London (which would not be allowed because they could not give the required statutory declaration of solvency) or on a liquidation of both Venkys London and BRFC plc. This is NOT the same as if Venkys had put a loan direct into either BRFC plc or Venkys London. Funds that are put in as share capital are a much more secure source of funding. You simply cannot look at the subsidiary company without taking account of its financial relationship with the parent. Until I have seen the Group accounts I will not go into melt-down panic like it seems everybody else on this site.

[Stuart]

Until I have seen the Group accounts I will not go into melt-down panic like it seems everybody else on this site.

Yes, I'm sure we are worrying unduly, Allan, and everything will be fine.

[allan]

Very patronising Stuart. I am probably more qualified than anybody on this MB or the Trust when it comes to analysing company accounts. Journos and the like are not known for their financial acumen.