[Archived] Venkys to reconsider position?

[patrickvalery]

Perhaps you could refer to my point earlier in this discussion Theno.

Why can't we do what Swansea have done?

Nothing stopping us trying 47er. But how many sides have tried and failed to go from div 4 to the Premier League? Swansea decided on a style of play and went with it. Other sides have tried the same and failed. The fact they appointed 3 managers on the bounce who were capable of implementing this successfully is a miracle in itself. Last season was our big chance. Blow the others out of the water with our finances. Still, it didn't happen and now we have to face the consequences. However, do you not think if we stick with Bowyer we might be heading down this Swansea route now? OK not with the free flowing football. But there seems to be an ethos and pattern of play developing nonetheless. The real guess work is predicting the style which might prove to be a hit. Which ever owner we have is capable of backing the wrong horse.

[47er]

Steady Patrick, you're almost suggesting Venkys have a plan!

As for Bowyer, nothing against him at all, he is making a decent fist of what he has.

However this thread is about Venkys and I'll repeat my mantra----we will never prosper under their ownership.

My point is that a club can haul itself back from the depth of despair with the right ownership and everyone pulling together for the sake of the club, as Swansea have done. Its pathetic to be arguing as some have that we are in real trouble if Venkys pull the plug!

[arbitro]

How about bankruptcy? Have you any idea how much Ewood and Brockhall cost to run even without taking players remuneration into account. And before you ask I don't either but Conference gate receipts wont even go an inch towards covering it.

I think many on here can't even imagine the consequences should our backers up sticks and leave.

But surely there will be a tipping point where the Indians say enough is enough. The longer they stay the more the situation worsens. Any sensible Rovers fan would say that we won't get promoted this season and in my opinion the chances of success in the coming seasons are minimal. If they are propping us up to the tune of £2m each month (and the limitation of FFP looming) I would ask them why they haven't got shut of us or won't even enter into discussions with any interested parties. The value of the club has diminished since they bought us, the debt is increasing on a daily basis, the whole club is a rudderless ship and still their arrogance/ignorance doesn't allow them to face the reality of the situation.

[Parsonblue]

Perhaps you could refer to my point earlier in this discussion Theno.

Why can't we do what Swansea have done?

I think you'll find that Swansea didn't have the same infrastructure to support. As theno has said, the cost of keeping TWO training grounds running, plus the stadium we have today is a huge cost in itself. That is before we have to pay any wages to players and coaching/sports science staff. Swansea were a Fourth Division club in an old stadium when the Supporters Trust became involved. We know what happened when the Rovers fell on hard times in the past - many supporters deserted the club because they didn't want to watch lower League football with no hope of reaching the top flight. Look at the gates in the early 1970's. We simply couldn't run the modern day Blackburn Rovers with those type of gates.

Personally, I don't believe we will see top flight football at Ewood Park for many years to come. The important thing is to keep the club and its resources intact and that requires money. At the moment the owners are putting money in to keep it ticking over but no more. Once FFP comes in then I really don't see how any owner is going to change anything until we can balance the books and with the upkeep of the facilities at Brockhall and Ewood, combined with the wage bill, I'm not sure how you square that circle. At the moment a mid-table Championship club seems the best we can hope for while there is this huge gulf between income and expenditure.

[patrickvalery]

Steady Patrick, you're almost suggesting Venkys have a plan!

As for Bowyer, nothing against him at all, he is making a decent fist of what he has.

However this thread is about Venkys and I'll repeat my mantra----we will never prosper under their ownership.

My point is that a club can haul itself back from the depth of despair with the right ownership and everyone pulling together for the sake of the club, as Swansea have done. Its pathetic to be arguing as some have that we are in real trouble if Venkys pull the plug!

Im not suggesting they came up with the plan thats for sure. It'll have been cobbled together after taking advice from whoever is flavour of the month.

Im no venkys fan. I happen to think they are probably decent people on the whole. The charitable work they do certainly suggests so. But I also think collectively they arent the brightest. This system of making decisions as a group is ridiculous. I always remember the adage about a camel being a horse designed by committee. Well rovers are one big, ugly camel aimlessly wandering about the world of football hemorrhaging money, biting anyone who cares to try and help and welcoming anyone who wishes to make money by exploiting the big hideous beast (Sorry about that. Not sure where that vulgar and bizarre analogy came from).

Anyway, my point was going to be that although, lets call it 'doing a Swansea', is all well and good, but what if you strip it all back, choose the direction you want to go in and set about doing it, only to find it doesn't work? Many clever businessmen have lost millions by following a flawed vision. For this reason, im less concerned about our identity going forward, but more about having people running the club who genuinely care for it. Whether we bumble along in the lower leagues is less important to me really. Yes I know the ramifications of that. But I just want an owner to oversee a good honest operation who will mirror that honesty on the pitch. Sucess and style would be great, but it feels like the club is so badly injured that we need to walk before we can run.

[47er]

I think Parson Blue has answered your dilemma Patrick. We can stick with Venkys and hopefully remain a mid-table Championship side for years to come. Whoopee.

And Swansea were better able to go from the depths of Div 4 to the Premiership because they weren't burdened by having great facilities!

Really, you couldn't make it up!

[patrickvalery]

I think Parson Blue has answered your dilemma Patrick. We can stick with Venkys and hopefully remain a mid-table Championship side for years to come. Whoopee.

And Swansea were better able to go from the depths of Div 4 to the Premiership because they weren't burdened by having great facilities!

Really, you couldn't make it up!

No dilemma here 47er. I don't like them and want them gone. Its our facilities which will probably mean we'll likely be approaced by another foreign investor who doesnt give a monkeys about the town or the fans.

[FGS5635]

Well it the not to distant future venkys are going to have to play their cards and we will know exactly what their plan is then. Promotion or bust and FFP dictates that really

[Parsonblue]

I think Parson Blue has answered your dilemma Patrick. We can stick with Venkys and hopefully remain a mid-table Championship side for years to come. Whoopee.

And Swansea were better able to go from the depths of Div 4 to the Premiership because they weren't burdened by having great facilities!

Really, you couldn't make it up!

Crazy as it sounds 47er I think it probably helped Swansea in the long run. Didn't the local authority build the new ground for them? When we were struggling in the past we trained at Pleasington or at Ewood. The upkeep of the Senior Training Ground and the Academy must be huge. Just look at all the people they employ simply to keep it running. By achieving Grade One status for the Academy they also have to provide education facilities for the lads and employ the staff to provide that education. Grade One status also means that the Under-18 and Under-21 teams now play in National Leagues with all the costs that is incurred with travelling south for games. Burnley didn't go for Grade One and so don't have all these overheads.

If Venky's sell then whoever buys us is going to lose money in the short term and maybe the long term. The only way the Rovers can be viable - and even then it was a struggle - is to be in the Premier League with all the money that comes with it. Sadly, I think the damage that Venky's have done will ensure that the Premier League remains a distant dream.

[FGS5635]

In our current plight you cant see anybody other than a rovers fan trying to buy the club. If a non rovers fan does attempt it then you have to question their motives as from the info we know you'd be crazy to do so.

[47er]

Well we can agree on most of that PB. Buts lets not get sucked in to thinking that Venkys are rescuing us from a financial calamity.

THEY HAVE CAUSED IT.You don't thank a man for rescuing you from drowning if he pushed you in the first place!

I'd like to think any new set-up wouldn't make mistakes as gigantic as theirs and which have lost them so much money. I 'd like to think no new owner would pay off 3 managers in a season for a start.

[Parsonblue]

Well we can agree on most of that PB. Buts lets not get sucked in to thinking that Venkys are rescuing us from a financial calamity.

THEY HAVE CAUSED IT.You don't thank a man for rescuing you from drowning if he pushed you in the first place!

I'd like to think any new set-up wouldn't make mistakes as gigantic as theirs and which have lost them so much money. I 'd like to think no new owner would pay off 3 managers in a season for a start.

I completely agree that we are in this mess because of Venky's. However, until someone comes along to buy us we need to pay the bills. At the moment Venky's are doing that although I'm still not convinced that when they walk away we won't be left with a mountain of debt. My concerns are about who will buy us next! Portsmouth went from bad to worse with every change of ownership. We struggled to find a buyer when we were a well run Premier League outfit. Now we are a run of the mill Championship club losing money hand over fist it's hardly an attractive proposition. If someone comes in, other than an out and out Rovers fan, I would fear the worst. What businessman in his right man is going to buy into a business which you have to put in a couple of million each month just to keep its head above water?

[Majiball]

I completely agree that we are in this mess because of Venky's. However, until someone comes along to buy us we need to pay the bills. At the moment Venky's are doing that although I'm still not convinced that when they walk away we won't be left with a mountain of debt. My concerns are about who will buy us next! Portsmouth went from bad to worse with every change of ownership. We struggled to find a buyer when we were a well run Premier League outfit. Now we are a run of the mill Championship club losing money hand over fist it's hardly an attractive proposition. If someone comes in, other than an out and out Rovers fan, I would fear the worst. What businessman in his right man is going to buy into a business which you have to put in a couple of million each month just to keep its head above water?

Vincent Tan?

[Paul]

Crazy as it sounds 47er I think it probably helped Swansea in the long run. Didn't the local authority build the new ground for them? When we were struggling in the past we trained at Pleasington or at Ewood. The upkeep of the Senior Training Ground and the Academy must be huge. Just look at all the people they employ simply to keep it running. By achieving Grade One status for the Academy they also have to provide education facilities for the lads and employ the staff to provide that education. Grade One status also means that the Under-18 and Under-21 teams now play in National Leagues with all the costs that is incurred with travelling south for games. Burnley didn't go for Grade One and so don't have all these overheads.

If Venky's sell then whoever buys us is going to lose money in the short term and maybe the long term. The only way the Rovers can be viable - and even then it was a struggle - is to be in the Premier League with all the money that comes with it. Sadly, I think the damage that Venky's have done will ensure that the Premier League remains a distant dream.

It can though be a case of finding the positives and advantages Rovers have in what is quite a similar situation. Swansea had a period of disastrous ownership in the late '90s/ early '00s followed by the club only avoiding relegation to the Conference on the last day of the 2001/02 season. From that point it took the club 9 years to gain promotion to the PL. In that time the club, facilities, ground etc have been rebuilt virtually from scratch. I don't know what the initial debt was but it was certainly very, very much lower than Rovers - probably only in the hundreds of thousands. The Swansea Trust was able to persuade, I think, five local businessmen to get involved in rebuilding the club for the benefit of the city and therefore local business etc.

On the upside for Rovers we already have all the facilities a club needs to gain promotion and survive in the PL, we've proved this over 20+ years. What we lack is decent ownership, a local focus and a winning team. One good season, not this one I imagine, could put us back where we belong. It took Swansea 9 years it needn't take Rovers that long IF local people can be found to own and manage the club i the fashion we all know works.

[Leonard Venkhater]

Well we can agree on most of that PB. Buts lets not get sucked in to thinking that Venkys are rescuing us from a financial calamity.

THEY HAVE CAUSED IT.You don't thank a man for rescuing you from drowning if he pushed you in the first place!

I'd like to think any new set-up wouldn't make mistakes as gigantic as theirs and which have lost them so much money. I 'd like to think no new owner would pay off 3 managers in a season for a start.

You are dead right there.They caused it and that is the awful reality. However, to bend your own metaphor...

You can't swim and some great big, stupid, arrogant, clumsy oaf pushes you into the water..In doing so, the stupid oaf falls into the water himself.

Unlike yourself, the stupid oaf can swim and you find yourself grabbing hold of him, as he swims to safety.

Needless to say, you don't feel any gratitude!

[Majiball]

You are dead right there.They caused it and that is the awful reality. However, to bend your own metaphor...

You can't swim and some great big, stupid, arrogant, clumsy oaf pushes you into the water..In doing so, the stupid oaf falls into the water himself.

Unlike yourself, the stupid oaf can swim and you find yourself grabbing hold of him, as he swims to safety.

Once in water of standing depth, stand up, push him under and hold him there till the inevitable.

Needless to say, you don't feel any gratitude! but a kean sense of satisfaction.

[DE.]

In regards to Venky's paying our bills... let's be clear it's the Bank of India paying bills on behalf of Venky's. It's a pretty important distinction to make as we don't yet know exactly how our owners plan to repay those loan debts.

[broadsword]

I don't think Venky's know how they'll pay those debts ...

I think the most likely outcome at the moment is that the banks will start to squeeze Venky's like an orange and they'll have to flog anything that isn't nailed down to keep the bank off their backs. Either that or they'll end up having to pledge their whole bloody chicken business in order to keep the credit flowing.

The longer this situation goes on, the more unattractive we become to would-be purchasers (although there are still interested parties - IT'S A MIRACLE!) Presumably Venkys won't sell until they get their money back, which just will not happen, ergo they'll never sell because they are morons.

They'll run out of things/players to flog at some point - and then what?

I can only see us falling further, unless something crops up to force them to sell.

God, they're so bloody thick and stubborn, it riles me.

[tomphil]

Or it's an emergency advance of next parachute payment tiding us over till Jan !

[DE.]

One assumes their plan, if they have one, is to get back into the Premier League and use the money generated from TV, sponsorship, etc, to pay off their bank debts.

Of course almost everything they've done thus far since relegation - purchasing Rhodes aside - seems to indicate the plan is in fact to moor us in this division or a lower one for the foreseeable future, but there you go.

[martonrover]

Well it the not to distant future venkys are going to have to play their cards and we will know exactly what their plan is then. Promotion or bust and FFP dictates that really

Not in any way, shape or form does this set up constitute 'promotion or bust'.

Making the youth team coach manager and signing young, cheap players, (all overseen by dithery Derek), is a non effort.

[FGS5635]

Not in any way, shape or form does this set up constitute 'promotion or bust'.

Making the youth team coach manager and signing young, cheap players, (all overseen by dithery Derek), is a non effort.

Promotion or bust is from a fans view. I dont begin to know what venkys think

[Rover_Shaun]

Looks like its bust to me.

[martonrover]

Promotion or bust is from a fans view. I dont begin to know what venkys think

Fair enough and I agree it is promotion or bust ( and I think we all know which is more likely).

[Amo]

There's nothing to stop someone taking over the club and bypassing the FFP through its various loopholes. Haven't Man. City secured a huge sponsorship deal with "Etihad Airways" who are linked to Sheikh Mansour? There's all kinds of ways to get-around the financial restrictions if the owners are shrewd enough. No, the main problem is finding someone with more money than sense in the first place. Sadly, a more likely scenario is the Pompey one. Rovers will be passed from one dodgy owner to another until the Community Trust saves the club from administration. The only hope at the moment is the two Ians, but they (or rather, their investors) aren't going to hang around forever after Venky's have already rebuffed them.