[Archived] Rovers £54.5m in debt.

[broadsword]

Wasn't it a condition of the sale that Venky's would clear the existing debt?

It's why the sale price was quoted at £43m, when the club was only valued at £20m.

[Majiball]

you are correct Bryan.

[Bucksrover]

Nice to see someone happy with the finances.

Of course I am not happy with the finances - The truth is I know very little about finance so am piecing together things other people are saying, trying to be hopeful.

[Fife Rover]

I doubt that , which was the last football club to go to the wall ?

Dunfermline Athletic.......rescued from administration by the DAFC Supporters Trust, with the help of one of their creditors agreeing to completely write off a debt of £8million pounds, and the supporters raising the remaining £3 or £4 million pounds.

They have also ended up relegated two divisions and without a single one of their pre-admin senior players.

But it takes a lot more than that to bury the dear old Pars, and with the huge amount of love and respect for this famous old club from all over Scotland they will carry on and hopefully soon regain their rightful place in SPL.

[grizfoot]

If anything I'm surprised the figure isn't bigger. Relegation was always going to have a massive negative effect on finances and if you add into that all the poor Venky's ownership. Which included signing players on high wages like Murphy and Etuhu whilst falling to get shut off players from the club already on wages too high for a Championship club. The Portuguese players and agents diabolic which was more wasted money, as was the managerial circus of last season.

There's definite positives to take from this season, we've clearly streamlined the squad and trimmed the wage bill by getting rid of a number of players on high wages. This is a fundamentally problem in football though, most clubs have debts it's just now ours are even bigger due to our incompetent owners.

[Parsonblue]

Dunfermline Athletic.......rescued from administration by the DAFC Supporters Trust, with the help of one of their creditors agreeing to completely write off a debt of £8million pounds, and the supporters raising the remaining £3 or £4 million pounds.

They have also ended up relegated two divisions and without a single one of their pre-admin senior players.

But it takes a lot more than that to bury the dear old Pars, and with the huge amount of love and respect for this famous old club from all over Scotland they will carry on and hopefully soon regain their rightful place in SPL.

Good to hear they have been rescued Fife. They are one of the traditional Scottish clubs and it would have been a tragedy to see them vanish - still remember Third Lanark going out of business in the sixties. A debt of £8 million seems nothing compared to the mess that we are in.

If anything I'm surprised the figure isn't bigger. Relegation was always going to have a massive negative effect on finances and if you add into that all the poor Venky's ownership. Which included signing players on high wages like Murphy and Etuhu whilst falling to get shut off players from the club already on wages too high for a Championship club. The Portuguese players and agents diabolic which was more wasted money, as was the managerial circus of last season.

There's definite positives to take from this season, we've clearly streamlined the squad and trimmed the wage bill by getting rid of a number of players on high wages. This is a fundamentally problem in football though, most clubs have debts it's just now ours are even bigger due to our incompetent owners.

I'm not sure about a streamlined squad - at the last count I think we had just over 70 players for the three senior teams - first team, Under-21 team and Under-18 team - not to mention an ever increasing sports science staff.

[Majiball]

Who have we hired?

[Guest Norbert]

Our biggest problem is we can't get rid of all the dobbins Kean and Shebby have signed.

[tomphil]

So, taking what other people have said - 30 million of the 54 is owed to Venky's at 0% interest. If so then it may not be as bad as I first thought because I am pretty sure we had 24 million of debt when they bought us.

Looking forward to the Brighton thread starting up - nice to talk about starting line-ups and match predictions rather than balance sheets.

You have to be joking when you say it may not be as bad as you thought surely? Can you not see the figures before your eyes. The club had an overdraft of 16 mill when they purchased and i think a 3 mill loan from the trust. On purchase Venkys transferred that overdraft on to the books of VLL, it was cleared eventually, how is debatable. If you don't want to read about balance sheets then why not stick to non finance related threads, simple really

[Guest Norbert]

All I know is, the debt has massively increased, and the income decreased. An overdraft of £16m, which was under control is much better than near enough £55m of debt, and rising every month.

I'm no John Maynard Keynes or Adam Smith, but that is no way to run a football club, a business or a country.

[Parsonblue]

Who have we hired?

I just look at the team photos Maj and the 'red tops' seem to continually increase. I know we lost a couple but looking at the backroom staff pages on the official site for both seniors and Academy there does seem to be a large staff. I'm not saying it's wrong for a minute. I think it's vital to have the right staff and properly qualified staff in these positions. Sadly, I'm old enough to remember a backroom staff for the first team of Jack Marshall as manager assisted by trainer/coach Jimmy Gordon whose sports science was "a sponge and bucket". Mind you they developed one of the best team's I have seen at Ewood Park. That forward line of Ferguson - McEvoy - Pickering, Douglas - Harrison was something special and behind them you had the likes of Clayton, Woods, McGrath etc. What we wouldn't give for a team like that today.

[Parsonblue]

Perhaps our Indian friends might find a copy of David Copperfield an interesting read:

“Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen pounds nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds nought and six, result misery.”

Somehow I can see Derek Shaw as a modern day Mr. Micawber!

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

I just look at the team photos Maj and the 'red tops' seem to continually increase. I know we lost a couple but looking at the backroom staff pages on the official site for both seniors and Academy there does seem to be a large staff. I'm not saying it's wrong for a minute. I think it's vital to have the right staff and properly qualified staff in these positions. Sadly, I'm old enough to remember a backroom staff for the first team of Jack Marshall as manager assisted by trainer/coach Jimmy Gordon whose sports science was "a sponge and bucket". Mind you they developed one of the best team's I have seen at Ewood Park. That forward line of Ferguson - McEvoy - Pickering, Douglas - Harrison was something special and behind them you had the likes of Clayton, Woods, McGrath etc. What we wouldn't give for a team like that today.

Jimmy Gordon must had something Parson. Brian Clough snapped him up when he left Rovers.

[grizfoot]

So if I've read it correctly under the new FFP rules Championship clubs are only allowed to make a £8m loss this season. However on the Football League website it says:

Failure to stay within the defined limits will lead to the imposition of sanctions. However, there will be no sanctions implemented during the first two seasons (2012/13 and 2013/14) in order to give clubs a sensible period of transition.

Putting that into context we made a loss of £36.5m last year. The loss figure is surely going to be around the £30m mark again if we continue as we are now with the squad we have until the end of the season. It says the club are committed to meeting the FFP regulators but I just don't see how we have any chance of doing that. Even being optimistic we would need to raise £20m in January to be within the FFP rules. Thankfully though no sanctions can be implemented on the club at the end of this season, although from the 2014/15 season measures will be put into place. If things don't drastically improve we will surely fall under such these new measures in the future which would mean the club would be liable to pay a Fair Play Tax and be subject to a transfer embargo from January 2015.

[Stuart]

So if I've read it correctly under the new FFP rules Championship clubs are only allowed to make a £8m loss this season. However on the Football League website it says:

Putting that into context we made a loss of £36.5m last year. The loss figure is surely going to be around the £30m mark again if we continue as we are now with the squad we have until the end of the season. It says the club are committed to meeting the FFP regulators but I just don't see how we have any chance of doing that. Even being optimistic we would need to raise £20m in January to be within the FFP rules. Thankfully though no sanctions can be implemented on the club at the end of this season, although from the 2014/15 season measures will be put into place. If things don't drastically improve we will surely fall under such these new measures in the future which would mean the club would be liable to pay a Fair Play Tax and be subject to a transfer embargo from January 2015.

At this rate, the Fair Play 'Tax' will be a drop in the ocean compared to our debts. Why worry about a pimple when your body is covered in buboes.

[Veevs]

Would be interesting to see this compared to pre-venky reports..

Would also be kinda useful if we had a proper board of directors.. atm we have Shaw, Ghandi (wasn't he based in India) and Coar (apparently not active in day to day running of the club)....

[den]

At this rate, the Fair Play 'Tax' will be a drop in the ocean compared to our debts. Why worry about a pimple when your body is covered in buboes.

Don't know how true this is and it comes from a Burnley fan:-

"Promotion - well nothing to do with banter here but being honest - your squad and 1st team are clearly not good enough - plus the fine involved if rovers got promoted is truely staggering - on these losses it will be over £30m alone!!! "

[Parsonblue]

Jimmy Gordon must had something Parson. Brian Clough snapped him up when he left Rovers.

Very true, Tyrone, very true. In fact, didn't Clough take him from the Rovers as soon as he got the Derby job?

[Bucksrover]

You have to be joking when you say it may not be as bad as you thought surely? Can you not see the figures before your eyes. The club had an overdraft of 16 mill when they purchased and i think a 3 mill loan from the trust. On purchase Venkys transferred that overdraft on to the books of VLL, it was cleared eventually, how is debatable. If you don't want to read about balance sheets then why not stick to non finance related threads, simple really

Had I known you would have been quite so delicate, and unable to ignore posts you don't like, I may have done.

[West Yorks Rover]

At a guess the fines for championship clubs could be something like £80 - £100m in total.

This would be an incredible some of money !

Who gets it ?

Would'nt mind betting the salaries at the Football League will be very healthy indeed for years to come.

[grizfoot]

Don't know how true this is and it comes from a Burnley fan:-

"Promotion - well nothing to do with banter here but being honest - your squad and 1st team are clearly not good enough - plus the fine involved if rovers got promoted is truely staggering - on these losses it will be over £30m alone!!! "

I'm not entirely sure actually it says Championship club have a period of transition for the 2013/14 season but I'm guessing a team gaining promotion will fall under next season's rules in which case we would be liable to pay the Fair Play tax as stated here:

If we are promoted this season, we would owe a tax after our results are announced next December. Just to give you an idea of the tax, if we were say 20 Million above the allowed losses, we would owe 16,681,000 in Fair Play tax.

But even with that tax to pay it would still of course be of great benefit financially to gain promotion this season. They always state the £40m sum as the financial gain from promotion to the Premier League. With promotion being the best option in a year's time we are still going to be in a poor financial state and carrying an increased debt.

[West Yorks Rover]

I'm not entirely sure actually it says Championship club have a period of transition for the 2013/14 season but I'm guessing a team gaining promotion will fall under next season's rules in which case we would be liable to pay the Fair Play tax as stated here:

But even with that tax to pay it would still of course be of great benefit financially to gain promotion this season. They always state the £40m sum as the financial gain from promotion to the Premier League.

70 % Increase in TV money from this season, therefore the team who finishes bottom will pick up circa £70m.

[thenodrog]

So, taking what other people have said - 30 million of the 54 is owed to Venky's at 0% interest. If so then it may not be as bad as I first thought because I am pretty sure we had 24 million of debt when they bought us.

Looking forward to the Brighton thread starting up - nice to talk about starting line-ups and match predictions rather than balance sheets.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlBiLNN1NhQ

So if I've read it correctly under the new FFP rules Championship clubs are only allowed to make a £8m loss this season.

'only'? Now that is a sign of the times.

At a guess the fines for championship clubs could be something like £80 - £100m in total.

This would be an incredible some of money !

Who gets it ?

Would'nt mind betting the salaries at the Football League will be very healthy indeed for years to come.

If your guess is accurate then it's more pertinant to ask 'who pays it'? I'd estimate that that figure is roughly equal to the combined income from ST sales for the entire Division! No good fining clubs with amounts above their ability to pay.

The knock on effect of all this of course is if clubs are to be fined and transfer embargo's placed on some then they will effectively not be in a position to spend and without any buyers the transfer value of players will fall like a stone..... and so will our so-called assets. If the rumour posted here somewhere are right that BRFC are desperate to offload Rhodes in Jan then I can see why.

There's a cold wind blowing through football. "Winter is coming". Not be long before the Rovers players are once again getting to Ewood on the corporation bus with their boots around their necks.

[Stuart]

At a guess the fines for championship clubs could be something like £80 - £100m in total.

This would be an incredible some of money !

Who gets it ?

Would'nt mind betting the salaries at the Football League will be very healthy indeed for years to come.

£100m fines?? Not a chance.

If you are right then they are simply into closing clubs down.

[grizfoot]

70 % Increase in TV money from this season, therefore the team who finishes bottom will pick up circa £70m.

Right you are I forgot about that. I still stand by my point that with promotion I don't think the financial situation will dramatic improve though. Another likely £30m loss this year will have net debt up at around £85m by this time next year with the Fair Play tax still to pay and then the restraints of having to fall under the new FFP rules whilst trying to compete at Premier League level. This however is the best possible situation. If we don't get promotion this season it really does look bleak.