[Archived] Financial Fair Play

[Majiball]

'The only constant in life is change' Simon. Ask any dinosaur and he'll confirm that. Oh I forgot... there aren't any.

aren't you evidence enough one or two survived?

[Stuart]

It doesn't need a Jack Walker to be successful again. Norwich, West Brom , Southampton, Swansea are proving you don't need a heap of money to do well in the top flight.

Norwich, West Brom, Southampton, Swansea got in just as the door was closing.

Sure, three teams will be relegated and three teams will be promoted but it's only a matter of time before the bigger city clubs are up there at their expense.

Leeds, Forest, Leicester, Middlesborough, Derby will add to a 25 club "Premier League +" as the bottom 10 and top 10 clubs rotate around (yo-yo).

The chances of Rovers breaking into the Top 10 championship teams as part of that rota are slim - unless we do it this season.

[jim mk2]

The point is Swansea, Southampton etc etc got promoted without much money and are doing well without spending much either. Southampton were dead and buried in the third division a few short years ago. The difference is they are well organised, well run, ambitious and confident. Rovers can be the same. You're still peddling the old "big city" club myth.

[chaddyrovers]

Oliver Kay in his Times article yesterday (see other thread), put a figure of +/- £10m on a potential fine for Rovers if promoted.

The saving grace for Rovers is that there are a lot of clubs in the same situation in the Championship if FPP is applied.

any ideas who the other clubs are?

my guess is Forest, Leicester, Birmingham, QPR, Bolton, maybe a couple of others aswell

[Stuart]

The point is Swansea, Southampton etc etc got promoted without much money and are doing well without spending much either. Southampton were dead and buried in the third division a few short years ago. The difference is they are well organised, well run, ambitious and confident. Rovers can be the same. You're still peddling the old "big city" club myth.

And you're still not listening.

They got in before FFP.

For all of their ambition, they would be as hamstrung as we are had they waited. Well, not quite as much as us.

They invested at the right time and got the rewards. Whereas Venkys came along - with all their supposed naivety - at exactly the wrong time, and our fairytale came to an end.

[jim mk2]

So all clubs are "hamstrung" by FFP ? Can no one get promoted ?

FFP is not the end of the world even if it comes into force - which must be doubtful.

[Stuart]

So all clubs are "hamstrung" by FFP ? Can no one get promoted ?

I really hope you are being obtuse on purpose - I think!

FFP is a problem for small clubs, not the bigger ones. Over time, the 'churn' will be of the bigger clubs - and/or the ones who don't @#/? away their parachute payments.

[Glosrover]

I really hope you are being obtuse on purpose - I think!

FFP is a problem for small clubs, not the bigger ones. Over time, the 'churn' will be of the bigger clubs - and/or the ones who don't kean away their parachute payments.

FFP will be 'got around' - think about it, if the league does in fact impose a £10M fine, as Venkys (or as any other wealthy owner in the same situation), do you pay money to a third party (ie the league, to divvy amongst the compliant clubs as a bonus) or do you make an 'on-paper' sponsorship deal with Venkys London ltd that coincidentally wipes out most of the debt and keeps the cash within the Venkys group.

Money changing hands between balance sheets of constituent companys in the same group happens all the time, Starbucks UK apparently, allegedly or so we heard rumoured, bought £26M of coffee from Starbucks in Switzerland to avoid UK corporation tax. If KPMG are still advising, then Im sure they know the odd dodge or two.

[FGS5635]

Owners/Accountants will get very creative with FFP.

Whats to stop rovers paying player a 1k per week and venkys india employing them to do an advert on two on a salary that equates to 19k per week. All of a sudden we are paying player a 20k per week with just 1k on rovers books

[PAFELL]

It doesn't need a Jack Walker to be successful again. Norwich, West Brom , Southampton, Swansea are proving you don't need a heap of money to do well in the top flight.

oh please that is yesterday. Today Rovers need a heap of money just to stay a float.

Owners/Accountants will get very creative with FFP.

Whats to stop rovers paying player a 1k per week and venkys india employing them to do an advert on two on a salary that equates to 19k per week. All of a sudden we are paying player a 20k per week with just 1k on rovers books

What venkys could do is encourage sponsorship / renaming rights of various parts of the ground. It may not clear the debt, just slow it down a bit. Although it would be very unpopular on here, they could even get Indian based companies to sponsor parts of the ground.

[PAFELL]

any ideas who the other clubs are?

my guess is Forest, Leicester, Birmingham, QPR, Bolton, maybe a couple of others aswell

There probable not a single club in the championship who does not have some form of debt - debts that will get worse, especially if interest rates go up etc etc. Clubs coming down from the prem will face simular problems. I think this FFP thing has got a lot of clubs in a panic.

[47er]

Anyone remember Platini complaining vigorously about City's outrageous ground sponsorship with Emirates? There would be a full investigation, no way would a team be able to breach the rules, teams that did would find themselves outside european competition etc etc.

What happened? NOTHING!! Seems to me FFP is being used to justify inaction.

[thenodrog]

Anyone remember Platini complaining vigorously about City's outrageous ground sponsorship with Emirates? There would be a full investigation, no way would a team be able to breach the rules, teams that did would find themselves outside european competition etc etc.

What happened? NOTHING!! Seems to me FFP is being used to justify inaction.

In fairness they are scared stiff of a legal battle against such wealth and no wonder.

I had a similar story from the horses mouth about the tasteless Euro garage housing development at Billinge End. The owners drove a horse and cart through planning regs on a number of occasions but the council were afraid (financially) to take action against them.

[TBTF]

Anyone remember Platini complaining vigorously about City's outrageous ground sponsorship with Emirates? There would be a full investigation, no way would a team be able to breach the rules, teams that did would find themselves outside european competition etc etc.

What happened? NOTHING!! Seems to me FFP is being used to justify inaction.

thought FFP in the Championship was governed by the clubs themsleves because they all agreed to sign up to it. Its not been brought in by FIFA yet its what the cllubs chose to do for themselves.So suddenly deciding you dont like it might not go down well with those that have got their house in order.

naming rights for Ewood?Aye ok worth about £20 grand a year.I'm no accountant but that means enkys would be writing off their investment wouldnt it? once they have done that they cant get it back. At the minute the losses are in the form of debt at Bank of India.Now if Venkys pay that off , as owners of the Club assets they could then sell them off to recoup couldnt they?? It isnt all that relevant that our assets are not held as security at the bank because Venkys own them and can do what they want with them.

so having depressed myself somebody please tell me which bit i have got wrong!!!

[Stuart]

naming rights for Ewood?Aye ok worth about £20 grand a year.I'm no accountant but that means enkys would be writing off their investment wouldnt it?

Who says that naming rights for Ewood would be £20k? Why not £20m? It's a unique opportunity as there is no other Ewood Park Football Stadium in the world.

Fair enough, £20m is ludicrous, but the idea of selling the rights for £20k is equally ludicrous, currently.

The point is IF Venkys have significant personal wealth (liquid) and IF they wanted to call it "Venkys Stadium, Ewood" and pay £50m per season for the privilege, there should be no reason for them not to be allowed to - providing it isn't a loan.

Sell them season tickets for the directors box at £1m per match. Views of the game not available ANYWHERE else in the world.

Of course they won't though!

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

The day Ewood becomes the " Venkies Stadium " or any other similar @#/? is the day I walk away into the sunset.

[Stuart]

I wouldn't worry. There's more chance of us being sponsored by Poundland.

Interesting though that overt Venkys sponsorship - which may be the only way to save the club - could kill the support...

[broadsword]

Sponsorship won't save us.

Either we'll get sold to a Middle East group or similar or we will go bust. We're the football league's equivalent of Zimbabwe right now.

[Ricky]

It doesn't need a Jack Walker to be successful again. Norwich, West Brom , Southampton, Swansea are proving you don't need a heap of money to do well in the top flight.

Wow, just wow. You really haven't researched this have you. Southampton have just spent £36 million on 3 players!!! This is on the back of £12m last season which granted is a little more modest. They have recouped 0 in fees.

[jim mk2]

Soton sold one player for £1.7m and released no fewer than 14 players. So the money spent on transfer fees (paid over a number of years) has probably been recouped by slashing the wage bill. I expect you'll find the net spend is nil.

Er, wow.

[Ricky]

Players released would have been on very low wages as they were league 1 players. I'd wager that those 3 players signed over the summer are on at least the same as the total of those released.

Net spend of nil.... Really!!

Saying that, I've been on here for about 12 years I think. Yet to hear you ever admit to being wrong so not expecting it to start now.

[Jimmy612]

Wow, just wow. You really haven't researched this have you. Southampton have just spent £36 million on 3 players!!! This is on the back of £12m last season which granted is a little more modest. They have recouped 0 in fees.

They can spend what they like now within reason - They've hit the jackpot. 2 years of Sky money - with a couple of shrewdly placed relegation terms in contracts, they can do what they like. Instead you should be focusing on their finances prior to their promotion.

The season they were promoted they made £12.5m on Oxlade-Chamberlain, spending only 4.9 on incoming players.

The season prior (10/11) they spent 2.6m, bringing in 7 players plus a host of freebies. All relative unknowns except Richard Chaplow. Hardly breaking the bank.

09/10 - a net expenditure of +2.5million.

08/09 - again a net expenditure of +1.2m

In 07/08 they received £27.2m in outgoing transfers of Jones, Bale & Baird - spending only £2.8m

05/06 they received £25m on transfers - spending only £3m

Before they were promoted, Southampton had a net transfer expenditure of +44.1m since 05/06.

Southampton did things the right way - they've sold youth players on for a huge profit e.g. Walcott, Bale, Oxlade. They've always spent sensibly and within their means and now they reap the benefits. Many clubs might have been tempted to throw money hand over fist after receiving the above fees.

The PL is the jackpot, until you get there clubs must be sensible and spend within their means.

[OJRovers]

Southampton etc show it is not impossible getting up because everyone in the championship has the same problems, it just takes very good management and organisation - rovers are obviously miles behind in this area.

The problem is that FFP and the increased gap in tv money will make it harder to stay up in the premier league because you're going to go up with a far weaker squad that everyone else.

[FGS5635]

Southampton also had some good luck in unearthing 3 teenage gems to sell for mega cash. You can argue it shows they have a great youth setup, but you still need a bit of luck when it comes to things like that.

Really thats the way forward these days, invest in youth and hope you can find a gem to sell for huge sums to then give you the FFP clout to spend yourself

[thenodrog]

The day Ewood becomes the " Venkies Stadium " or any other similar keans is the day I walk away into the sunset.

Get away with you. Talks cheap Tyrone. tbqh I'm quite surprised their name isn't being used much more now. If it would save the club I'd accept Al Qaeda Park.... prob fill the ground to bursting too!

Put an apostrophe in and effectively it became "Venky's Stadium" 3 years ago last Tuesday.

btw Quite surprised nobody has thought to celebrate the occasion.... seeing as how plenty welcomed them with open arms back then.