[Archived] News comment

[thenodrog]

First of all whilst acknowledging the swimming duck principle that although not much appears to be happening there is really lots going on under the surface, but I have been dismayed and frustrated to see literally dozens of firemen and policemen standing around chatting and apparently doing nothing at the scene of this weekends horrific helicopted crash in Glasgow. What happened to urgency? What happened to compassion? What happened to human chains removing all loose debris in order to rescue people and assess the situation asap? Where is the British spirit that was so evident during the blitz? That lot would have had to have been sorted and victims attended to asap before the next nights bombing back then, tbh it would have had to be! Now we are told they are waiting for a mechanic to come from Germany to dismantle the damned thing!

48 hours ago there may have been survivors but I doubt there are any now as imo finding the cause in order to apportion blame and avoiding getting dirty hands and getting splinters has come before rescue and compassion.

All this just a few days after the firemen were on strike because they are being asked to perform fitness tests to evaluate their ability to do their job and outraged that their ridiculously overblown pension rights were being questioned. How fit does one need to be to stand around for a few hours passing the time of day chatting and blowing on ones hands?

Has 30 years influence by the H&S exec has effectively gelded our emergency services? I suspect so. Lets just hope that somehow they have been kept away from our armed forces but I do doubt it.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Yeah, I agree with a lot of that. I suppose they wanted the helicopter dismantled correctly from an evidential point of view.

I wouldn't go to Afghanistan for a gold clock and I didn't want us out there in the first place. Having said that relatives of troops getting killed out there are sueing the M O D because of inadequate protective equipment etc.

In the last war men were sent out on what were in the cold light of day suicide missions. Attacking the battleship Bismark with bi-planes etc. Good job we weren't litigious then as we are now.

Somebodies always got to be blamed nowadays. It's the same in football, two guys collide chasing a through ball into the penalty area. Now it's always either a free kick or a penalty, why can't it just be play on ? Players come together, they collide, so what.

[jim mk2]

Alf barking up the wrong tree as usual. Tributes to "ordinary Glaswegians" who helped in the aftermath of the accident.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-25167420

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Alf barking up the wrong tree as usual. Tributes to "ordinary Glaswegians" who helped in the aftermath of the accident.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-25167420

Nobodies knocking the ordinary Glaswegians Jim. It's just the emergency services seem to be a bit loathe to take any sort of risk these days.

On another point I was amused to see the wreckage is going to Farnborough for expert analysis ! Where would it be going when Scotland becomes independent ?

[jim mk2]

Gordon was banging on about the "blitz" when in fact ordinary folk were pulling at the building immediately after the accident trying to get people out. Nothing's happening now presumably because the building is unsafe and there is a risk of it caving in without expert help.

And don't blame the emergency services by the way - look no farther than the no-fee lawyers who will sue anyone who makes a mistake.

It will be interesting to see the cause of the crash. This helicopter had 2 engines apparently and it is almost unknown for both to fail. Helicopters are also capable of gliding in the event of engine failure - which i didn't know. Why this just one fell out of the sky therefore is a mystery.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Yeah, helicopter and gliding ? I saw that, sounds odd to me. I always thought helicopters had all the flying characteristic of a brick without engine power.

[thenodrog]

Gordon was banging on about the "blitz" when in fact ordinary folk were pulling at the building immediately after the accident trying to get people out. Nothing's happening now presumably because the building is unsafe and there is a risk of it caving in without expert help.

Single story building. Accro props would be perfect.

Expert help? 3 days? Could it be that the staff in the Building office in Glasgow Town Hall were all off for the weekend?

Yeah, helicopter and gliding ? I saw that, sounds odd to me. I always thought helicopters had all the flying characteristic of a brick without engine power.

No... For once he is right. Pilots can effectively knock it out of gear and 'feather' the rotor blades to come down softly. Think of spinning jennys. It's a drill that the RAF practice time and again.

[Mike E]

On a somewhat related note, the 'Millies', PrideOfBritain awards and other such awards for the armed and emergency services need to stop using the phrase 'above and beyond the call of duty'. A point brought up to me by a paramedic friend.

He states that the call of duty is to help anyone in anyway possible, regardless of your own safety. While it isn't what they're taught or trained, it's apparently a view most hold. He tells me that quite regularly the only thing stopping paramedics rushing into a burning building is the threat of suing.

[jim mk2]

Single story building. Accro props would be perfect.

Expert help? 3 days? Could it be that the staff in the Building office in Glasgow Town Hall were all off for the weekend?

Quotes from the fire service below.

It only takes a little research to avoid making yourself look a complete twerp.

David Goodhew, of Scottish Fire and Rescue Service, said firefighters had been tunnelling through wreckage inside the building to try and reach people left inside

.

He said crews had been unable to search the whole of the building because of how unstable parts of it were, adding that the operation would be completed once the helicopter wreckage had been removed.

"The building has been totally devastated. It is unrecognisable in most parts inside," he said.

"There is a large amount of debris underneath the helicopter.

"We have got to dig slowly. The building is in such an unstable condition.

"You can imagine underneath the helicopter, the sea of devastation.

"We have been unable to dig into the last areas of the building because of the amount of debris and rubble in those areas."

Scotland's deputy first minister, Nicola Sturgeon, said firefighters were working as quickly and safely as possible.

"I know that those in the air accident investigation side of this have described this as one of the most complex sites that they have ever worked on," she told BBC Radio 4's Today programme.

"It's important that the helicopter is removed in a way that firstly preserves the dignity of the victims inside the pub, but secondly doesn't impose any unnecessary risks on the people carrying out this work.

"I fully and completely understand the frustration and the anguish for people who are waiting for news."

Gordon Matheson, leader of Glasgow city council, said he also understood the frustration of relatives. But speaking to BBC Radio Scotland he added: "I think people nonetheless will recognise it's a very complex and dangerous operation which is being conducted there.

"We need to keep the emergency services safe, we need to protect the dignity of the victims and we also need to preserve the evidence.

"The families, entirely understandably, want to know what has happened to their loved ones and if it's the worst case and their loved ones have died, they want their bodies returned to them so they can grieve and make funeral arrangements, but they will also want to know how this happened and therefore it's important to preserve the evidence too."

[Stuart]

I can't believe the lengths Jim will go to in order to argue with Gordon.

I too have been dismayed and alarmed at the length of time it is taking / has taken to try to get to what may have been survivors, at one stage.

One thing that he has got right though is that the 'where-there's-a-blame-there's-a-claim' solicitors have ruined this county - the kind of people who will keep scumbags out of jail while locking up their own grandma to make a buck. We are at the point where people dare not help each other for fear of being sued if they make a mistake. Sad times.

[Mike E]

Perhaps it's a leaf we should take out of the French book? That helping each other is a national duty?

[thenodrog]

This is heartrending......

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-25181608

"The integrity of that helicopter seemed paramount" Dare I suggest that a civilian helicopter crashing onto that pub rather than a Police one might have provoked an altogether more urgent response in regard to prioritising the search and rescue attempts from the emergency services.

[thenodrog]

More news re:Cameron stiffing Eddie Odie Milliband.

In response to Little Ed's severely misjudged speech to the Party where his pathetically misjudged main thrust to the 'great unwashed' was to promise a parsimonious freeze on energy prices from 2015 to 2017 should New Labour win the election, the electricity companies have responded by raising prices above the rate of inflation AND promising the govt not to do so again until 2015. Effectively Little Eddie's rash promise is doomed to failure along with Little Eddie himself imo. As far as that man is concerned he might lead the Labour party but he is no deep thinker and most definitely no poker player. The unions @#/? up bigtime when they stupidly put their puppet in power above big brother David.

Oh well.......

[jim mk2]

I can't believe the lengths Jim will go to in order to argue with Gordon.

I too have been dismayed and alarmed at the length of time it is taking / has taken to try to get to what may have been survivors, at one stage.

One thing that he has got right though is that the 'where-there's-a-blame-there's-a-claim' solicitors have ruined this county - the kind of people who will keep scumbags out of jail while locking up their own grandma to make a buck. We are at the point where people dare not help each other for fear of being sued if they make a mistake. Sad times.

You cannot ignore stupid comments like Gordon's blaming the local council for failing to deal with a serious incident. Notice his failure to reply to my post with the quotes from the services.

If you had bothered to read the newspaper reports local people were desperately trying to help the victims.

[T.J.Newton]

I like to imagine Jim and Gordon are actually the same person struggling with a split personality, each of which are fighting for supremacy of the mind and brfcs forum is their battleground.

[jim mk2]

More news re:Cameron stiffing Eddie Odie Milliband.

In response to Little Ed's severely misjudged speech to the Party where his pathetically misjudged main thrust to the 'great unwashed' was to promise a parsimonious freeze on energy prices from 2015 to 2017 should New Labour win the election, the electricity companies have responded by raising prices above the rate of inflation AND promising the govt not to do so again until 2015. Effectively Little Eddie's rash promise is doomed to failure along with Little Eddie himself imo. As far as that man is concerned he might lead the Labour party but he is no deep thinker and most definitely no poker player. The unions keaned up bigtime when they stupidly put their puppet in power above big brother David.

Oh well.......

I shouldn't rise to this idiot but here we go again......

It's obviously passed him by but Miliband's energy speech and cost of living crisis theme has forced the government on to the defensive for the past 6 weeks and they have finally had to respond this week by adopting his policy and promising a £50 reduction in energy bills next year.

Of course this reduction is not being paid for the energy companies but by the coalition agreeing to reduce green subsidies. After all, the Tories cannot hurt their donors and friends in big business can they ? Energy bills are forecast to rise by more than £200 on average next year anyway so the privatised fat cats in the energy business are still be making even bigger profits to fund their annual bonuses.

As for Miliband I cannot remember a time when an opposition leader set the political agenda like he has over the past 6 months.

And it's working too. ICM's November phone poll for the Guardian puts Labour on 38 per cent to the Conservatives' 30 per cent - their worst showing since February. The twice-weekly Populus poll also shows an eight-point lead for Labour.

Cue gnashing of teeth in Pleasington GC.

[thenodrog]

As for Miliband I cannot remember a time when an opposition leader set the political agenda like he has over the past 6 months.

Doesn't appear that you can see that the agenda is being set by the energy companies. The energy companies are set to discredit and destroy Miliband. The clown has given his enemies 2 full years notice to discredit and dismantle him and his party.

[jim mk2]

Doesn't appear that you can see that the agenda is being set by the energy companies. The energy companies are set to discredit and destroy Miliband. The clown has given his enemies 2 full years notice to discredit and dismantle him and his party.

Really ? How ?

[Stuart]

You cannot ignore stupid comments like Gordon's blaming the local council for failing to deal with a serious incident. Notice his failure to reply to my post with the quotes from the services.

If you had bothered to read the newspaper reports local people were desperately trying to help the victims.

OMG Jim. It's the 'emergency' services I'm concerned about. They certainly don't seem in much of an emergency to get people out.

There are almost certainly people trapped who survivors the initial crash who have now perished. Why is it taking so long and why are the families not being listened to? The gentleman in the video asked why they couldn't suspend the helicopter and pull down the front of the pub. Well, why not?

Criminal.

[Mike E]

OMG Jim. It's the 'emergency' services I'm concerned about. They certainly don't seem in much of an emergency to get people out.

There are almost certainly people trapped who survivors the initial crash who have now perished. Why is it taking so long and why are the families not being listened to? The gentleman in the video asked why they couldn't suspend the helicopter and pull down the front of the pub. Well, why not?

Criminal.

Precisely.

[cn174]

OMG Jim. It's the 'emergency' services I'm concerned about. They certainly don't seem in much of an emergency to get people out.

There are almost certainly people trapped who survivors the initial crash who have now perished. Why is it taking so long and why are the families not being listened to? The gentleman in the video asked why they couldn't suspend the helicopter and pull down the front of the pub. Well, why not?

Criminal.

I think that is unfair. The USAR team were inside the building within 12 minutes of it happening, searching for people and within an hour there were 125 firefighters there - they cant all be in the building at the same time. How do you know what impact pulling down the front of the pub would have, it might have made the rest of it collapse even further etc. But I'm pretty sure that if it was the right thing to do then they would have. The USAR teams are highly trained and know what they're doing. Of course from the outside it is easy to watch on tv and say they should be doing this and that, but the one thing you can't accuse emergency services of is not doing everything they can to save people's lives.

[Mike E]

I think that is unfair. The USAR team were inside the building within 12 minutes of it happening, searching for people and within an hour there were 125 firefighters there - they cant all be in the building at the same time. How do you know what impact pulling down the front of the pub would have, it might have made the rest of it collapse even further etc. But I'm pretty sure that if it was the right thing to do then they would have. The USAR teams are highly trained and know what they're doing. Of course from the outside it is easy to watch on tv and say they should be doing this and that, but the one thing you can't accuse emergency services of is doing everything they can to save people's lives.

Shearer, is that you?

[ultrablue]

Hear hear! They are the professionals with the gall and the training to save lives. Eyewitness TV can be very misleading.

Also if you think about it, , after the initial efforts to find survivors, it is probably best to slow down and know exactly what you are doing before you start moving rubble and debris. The person can survive trapped for days. But a wrong decision when removing rubble could be instantly fatal.

It's certainly a delicate balance between urgency and diligency.

[jim mk2]

OMG Jim. It's the 'emergency' services I'm concerned about. They certainly don't seem in much of an emergency to get people out.

There are almost certainly people trapped who survivors the initial crash who have now perished. Why is it taking so long and why are the families not being listened to? The gentleman in the video asked why they couldn't suspend the helicopter and pull down the front of the pub. Well, why not?

Criminal.

The emergency services know their job - they have the expertise to rescue people and when it is safe to do so. If you read the quotes in the newspapers you would know this. Presumably however you know better.

Your post is criminal.

[T.J.Newton]

to be honest this chopper crash/accident seems to be taking up far to much of the news, maybe im just a cynical theorist but I cant help but wonder what scummy political and world news is slipping under the radar.