[Archived] News comment

[yoda]

Definitely theno but how many of these wealth creators have disappeared to other shores ?

How many will disappear if Labour put the tax up again?

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

How many will disappear if Labour put the tax up again?

Not enough of them,the tax dodging keaners.

[yoda]

Not enough of them,the tax dodging keaners.

40% of something is better than 50% of nothing

They would not be tax dodgers if they left the country,

however you look at it 50% tax is extreme and do you think the government can spend it more wisely than the person who earned it

[thenodrog]

Definitely theno but how many of these wealth creators have disappeared to other shores ?

Not enough of them,the tax dodging keaners.

Can't these two comments be turned around and re-applied ?

Despite the recent best efforts of the current government in reducing uneemployement to the lowest level for some years we still have approx 2.3 million people who don't contribute any tax or national insurance living within our shores with a significant number being classed as 'long term unemployed'. Worse still we are having to bloody well keep them! I'm sure that we'd all be much better off if those LTU's all disappeared to distant shores too JAL.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Even Beveridge realised that a small percentage of the population wouldn't be able to contribute much in the way of work. No economy will ever be able to guarantee a job for everyone. There will always be people we have to maintain, I'm just glad that me and all of mine don't fall into that category. I don't mind paying for the ones that do. You can't take it with you.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

I don't mind paying for the ones that do. You can't take it with you.

You must be able to afford things then if you've got something to take with you. I can't afford to buy a house, a decent car or to go on holiday because I earn close to the minimum wage. So I'm maintaining people many of whom are likely far wealthier than me in terms of assets. Discussed this to death on here but its a situation I'll never be ok with and that I find completely unacceptable. Anyone who works should be considerably better off than anyone who doesn't.

Realise the main argument is whose fault it is that that is nowhere near the case in this country. Some people would say the fault is the wealth gap and the minimum wage needs to be a lot higher, some would say its unrealistic to expect to achieve that and instead benefit payments need to be a lot lower and the ability to get them a lot harder.

Whatever the case, I think its a pretty common connection that people who are happy to fund dole dossers are people who have enough money in their own life.

[thenodrog]

Even Beveridge realised that a small percentage of the population wouldn't be able to contribute much in the way of work. No economy will ever be able to guarantee a job for everyone. There will always be people we have to maintain, I'm just glad that me and all of mine don't fall into that category. I don't mind paying for the ones that do. You can't take it with you.

I realise that many cannot work but read it again and my post was aimed at the ltu's.

BTW 2.3 million appears to be a perennial figure but it does not constitute a small percentage in my book. I'd guess its about 7-10% and maybe more of the working population. Interestingly its a similar figure to the estimates for migrant workers in the country. Do you not see a flaw in bringing in migrants to do the work that we keep being informed that our unemployed won't do? More pertinately what would happen should we all decide that we didn't want to work?

[Stuart]

Do migrant workers each get paid a living wage to enable them to buy a house and look after a family? Or do they share rented houses to spread the cost and send money back to their mother country before ultimately leaving.

If it's the former then I agree with Gordon in that "homegrown" citizens should be expected to do that work, regardless of it seeming menial.

If it's the latter then it's a hollow, political argument.

[thenodrog]

I don't expect many Poles will be complaing about the bedroom tax.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

I'm reasonably well off now but it's taken me nearly 50 years to get to this point. When we were bringing up my two sons my wife didn't work. That meant me working three nights overtime, Sat and Sun morning overtime every week. Some weeks it was all day Sat and Sun. This was for a couple of decades. Money was still tight and we hardly ever went away for a holiday. I hardly saw my kids growing up. So I think I can say I paid my dues and I'm entitled to my opinion.

I was lucky in that I was doing a job I really enjoyed. Having said that it was demanding both physically and mentally and my body is letting me know that now.

Ten years ago I was out of work for four weeks, mainly over the Christmas period. It was a miserable time, I hated signing on at the job centre and the JSA allowance was a joke. If you envy anyone who's un-employed you can't have tried it.

[Al]

Difference is Tyrone you don't know how and what to claim. I had a similar life experience to you and because I always made sure my pension scheme was topped up I am reasonably comfortable in retirement.

[ABBEY]

nice to see cameron sticking up for tax dodging take that today.

[thenodrog]

Rumbles on this Tax Avoidance / Tax Evasion issue doesn't it? Must say I don't know anyone who would not pay less tax if they could.

One thing I do know is that for most people like Barlow who are not on PAYE that taxation is a complicated issue and one that most leave to their accountants and financial advisers to sort out. These are the guys that earn their crust by performing well for their clients. Lets be honest Barlow is a musician not an accountant isn't he?

Personally I'm not in favour of honours at all. It all seems too skewed to showbiz and the like with a few token ones given out to school crossing ladies and such. Not only that but seeing some of the tossers who have been recognised would turn me away from accepting I'm sure. BUT If what he did is not illegal Abbey then why on earth should he hand back his OBE?

[yoda]

Rumbles on this Tax Avoidance / Tax Evasion issue doesn't it? Must say I don't know anyone who would not pay less tax if they could.

One thing I do know is that for most people like Barlow who are not on PAYE that taxation is a complicated issue and one that most leave to their accountants and financial advisers to sort out. These are the guys that earn their crust by performing well for their clients. Lets be honest Barlow is a musician not an accountant isn't he?

Personally I'm not in favour of honours at all. It all seems too skewed to showbiz and the like with a few token ones given out to school crossing ladies and such. Not only that but seeing some of the tossers who have been recognised would turn me away from accepting I'm sure. BUT If what he did is not illegal Abbey then why on earth should he hand back his OBE?

The HMRC rep stated it was not illegal but not in the spirit of the tax laws, which I assume means HMRC cocked up and left loopholes

[K-Hod]

Agree with Gordon, not right but it's the system that's broken.

Close the loopholes-problems solved!

[Al]

The HMRC rep stated it was not illegal but not in the spirit of the tax laws, which I assume means HMRC cocked up and left loopholes

In that case why on Earth do the Revenue believe they can force them to pay back taxes? They have done nothing illegal and anybody who pays tax that they don't have to is stupid. Why should they voluntarily cough up money that will in all probability be used to pay benefits to immigrants?

[thenodrog]

The HMRC rep stated it was not illegal but not in the spirit of the tax laws, which I assume means HMRC cocked up and left loopholes

Course they did! Left on purpose. They all take early retirement and become expensive tax consultants to the rich and famous. It's a game. Topically the taxmans Pension Fund.

[Adam C]

Al while the majority of tax money does go to benefits (between 10-15%) if you bother to do even a small bit of research rather than recycle hoary old chestnuts like the above you would find that most of this money allocated to benefits goes towards the state pension. Britain is facing a pensions crisis in the coming decades and it beggars belief that anyone could defend tax dodgers.

Ironically given your typical, predictable tripe about "benefits to immigrants" it is in fact immigrant workers that hold the key to protecting future generations from having to retire without a state pension. As the UK population ages and retires the birth rate is declining and so we need immigrant workers to help fund the pensions of future generations. Look at the example of Japan where there has been a "lost decade" of economic growth while immigration is miniscule and the population ages.

It is easy to turn your "stupid people that pay tax statement" around and state that anybody that deliberately tries to avoid paying their fair share is a crook. Multimillionaires are rich enough, with very little chance of ever spending all the money they have accrued. They have enjoyed the benefits that our admittedly high taxes have paid for so they should not have the right to avoid paying into the system just because they are wealthy and can afford a clever accountant.

[JAL]

The HMRC rep stated it was not illegal but not in the spirit of the tax laws, which I assume means HMRC cocked up and left loopholes

With over 15000 pages in the tax document are you surprised.

[thenodrog]

It is easy to turn your "stupid people that pay tax statement" around and state that anybody that deliberately tries to avoid paying their fair share is a crook. Multimillionaires are rich enough, with very little chance of ever spending all the money they have accrued. They have enjoyed the benefits that our admittedly high taxes have paid for so they should not have the right to avoid paying into the system just because they are wealthy and can afford a clever accountant.

There is no crime for 'tax dodging'. The term youh are looking for is tax evasion.

Its a fair bet too that the likes of Barlow and your vague 'millionaires' have paid many many times more than you and indeed most others into the system whether in direct or indirect taxation. Why not have a go at other tax 'dodgers'? How about the people that send countless millions in undeclared cash to overseas destinations via western union? How about having a go at the people who wont work over a certain number of hours per week lest it affects their benefits?

[Willie Eckerslike]

Ever paid someone "cash in hand" to do a bit of plumbing. building etc..?

Lots of tax dodging out there, just at different levels

[Al]

Al while the majority of tax money does go to benefits (between 10-15%) if you bother to do even a small bit of research rather than recycle hoary old chestnuts like the above you would find that most of this money allocated to benefits goes towards the state pension. Britain is facing a pensions crisis in the coming decades and it beggars belief that anyone could defend tax dodgers.

Ironically given your typical, predictable tripe about "benefits to immigrants" it is in fact immigrant workers that hold the key to protecting future generations from having to retire without a state pension. As the UK population ages and retires the birth rate is declining and so we need immigrant workers to help fund the pensions of future generations. Look at the example of Japan where there has been a "lost decade" of economic growth while immigration is miniscule and the population ages.

It is easy to turn your "stupid people that pay tax statement" around and state that anybody that deliberately tries to avoid paying their fair share is a crook. Multimillionaires are rich enough, with very little chance of ever spending all the money they have accrued. They have enjoyed the benefits that our admittedly high taxes have paid for so they should not have the right to avoid paying into the system just because they are wealthy and can afford a clever accountant.

Pensions have been bought and paid for. Immigrant benefits are a drain on the taxpayer with no return.

[Adam C]

There is no crime for 'tax dodging'. The term youh are looking for is tax evasion.

Its a fair bet too that the likes of Barlow and your vague 'millionaires' have paid many many times more than you and indeed most others into the system whether in direct or indirect taxation. Why not have a go at other tax 'dodgers'? How about the people that send countless millions in undeclared cash to overseas destinations via western union? How about having a go at the people who wont work over a certain number of hours per week lest it affects their benefits?

I don't agree with tax dodging in any shape or form - whether it is a millionaire or someone on minimum wage. It is a little more excusable for someone on a low wage to try to avoid paying tax if they can as they have less to live on and notice every penny that comes out of their wage. When a hugely rich individual does their best to cheat the system it tends to grab the attention though, hence the headlines in the papers and the debate in here.

I take your point that a (vague lol) millionaire will contribute much more to tax budgets than I will ever earn. This does not excuse them from paying tax though. Otherwise there is one rule for the rich and one for the poor. Perhaps you think there should be a level of tax everyone should pay and when that is reached you should get a "tax holiday"?

I don't understand what you mean by people sending money via Western Union but with regards to the people that won't work above certain hours so they can continue to claim benefits I think this is once again a bit more excusable as they are only trying to get a "living wage" aren't they? There's a big difference between these people playing the system for money to pay household bills and the likes of Barlow and Carr redirecting their money to avoid paying any tax whatsoever if possible. Also only working a small amount of hours a week should give another person the chance of employment, hopefully gaining important skills and contacts.

Also just because something is legal that doesn't make it morally right. The distinction between tax "evasion" and tax "avoidance" is lost on me. Both are ways that people try to wriggle out of paying their fair share. When these people don't pay tax they are literally robbing from the likes of you and me.

Ever paid someone "cash in hand" to do a bit of plumbing. building etc..?

Lots of tax dodging out there, just at different levels

Yeah of course I have. I used to do a bit of taxi driving as well so I am also aware that lots of taxi drivers don't pay tax or national insurance either, many of them claim benefits as well as working. It's a bit unrealistic though to expect me to refuse to pay a builder cash in hand or try to ensure that he is paying tax on all work paid for by me. If I was offered a cheaper rate for cash in hand rather than by cheque or whatever I would not take it. It's a good point though - we all contribute to the black market economy to a certain extent - that's why I brought in the example of taxi drivers. The only person you can be responsible for ultimately is yourself. That's why I pay my fair share and hope that others do the same.

Pensions have been bought and paid for. Immigrant benefits are a drain on the taxpayer with no return.

First off I want to apologise for describing your views as "tripe". I appreciate you not taking it personally or rising to the bait of my rude language. I didn't mean to be rude but I am quitting smoking and got a bit carried away... All the same I am fairly sure pensions have not been bought and paid for - why else would they raise the qualifying age to 68 from 65? It is pretty obvious that as we live longer that it will become harder and harder to guarantee everyone a state pension. What percentage of your taxes do you think goes towards "immigrant benefits"? I don't know either but I reckon it's a fairly small amount each year, dwarfed by the vast amounts lost to the treasury through tax avoidance schemes perpetrated by companies and wealthy individuals.

[thenodrog]

I don't understand what you mean by people sending money via Western Union ...................

............................... Yeah of course I have. I used to do a bit of taxi driving as well so I am also aware that lots of taxi drivers don't pay tax or national insurance either, many of them claim benefits as well as working.

Does not compute!

I'd imagine the likes of taxi drivers and proprietors of take aways and restaurants are Western Union's best clients around these parts.

[yoda]

I don't agree with tax dodging in any shape or form - whether it is a millionaire or someone on minimum wage. It is a little more excusable for someone on a low wage to try to avoid paying tax if they can as they have less to live on and notice every penny that comes out of their wage. When a hugely rich individual does their best to cheat the system it tends to grab the attention though, hence the headlines in the papers and the debate in here.

I take your point that a (vague lol) millionaire will contribute much more to tax budgets than I will ever earn. This does not excuse them from paying tax though. Otherwise there is one rule for the rich and one for the poor. Perhaps you think there should be a level of tax everyone should pay and when that is reached you should get a "tax holiday"?

I don't understand what you mean by people sending money via Western Union but with regards to the people that won't work above certain hours so they can continue to claim benefits I think this is once again a bit more excusable as they are only trying to get a "living wage" aren't they? There's a big difference between these people playing the system for money to pay household bills and the likes of Barlow and Carr redirecting their money to avoid paying any tax whatsoever if possible. Also only working a small amount of hours a week should give another person the chance of employment, hopefully gaining important skills and contacts.

Also just because something is legal that doesn't make it morally right. The distinction between tax "evasion" and tax "avoidance" is lost on me. Both are ways that people try to wriggle out of paying their fair share. When these people don't pay tax they are literally robbing from the likes of you and me.

Yeah of course I have. I used to do a bit of taxi driving as well so I am also aware that lots of taxi drivers don't pay tax or national insurance either, many of them claim benefits as well as working. It's a bit unrealistic though to expect me to refuse to pay a builder cash in hand or try to ensure that he is paying tax on all work paid for by me. If I was offered a cheaper rate for cash in hand rather than by cheque or whatever I would not take it. It's a good point though - we all contribute to the black market economy to a certain extent - that's why I brought in the example of taxi drivers. The only person you can be responsible for ultimately is yourself. That's why I pay my fair share and hope that others do the same.

First off I want to apologise for describing your views as "tripe". I appreciate you not taking it personally or rising to the bait of my rude language. I didn't mean to be rude but I am quitting smoking and got a bit carried away... All the same I am fairly sure pensions have not been bought and paid for - why else would they raise the qualifying age to 68 from 65? It is pretty obvious that as we live longer that it will become harder and harder to guarantee everyone a state pension. What percentage of your taxes do you think goes towards "immigrant benefits"? I don't know either but I reckon it's a fairly small amount each year, dwarfed by the vast amounts lost to the treasury through tax avoidance schemes perpetrated by companies and wealthy individuals.

I know how you got your posting name now