[Archived] News comment

[Jock]

Enoch Powell and Michael Foot were both opposed to us joining the EU.

[yoda]

Enoch Powell and Michael Foot were both opposed to us joining the EU.

Both could be described as statesmen

[Gav]

It is interesting to compare it to the Jews, Chinese and Caribbean people who have integrated with few problems.

Bunkum!

Have you forgotten about the riots in 80's? Mostly involving people from the Black Caribbean community?

Not a Muslim in sight, but don't let facts get in the way of a good Muslim bashing.

[yoda]

Bunkum!

Have you forgotten about the riots in 80's? Mostly involving people from the Black Caribbean community?

Not a Muslim in sight, but don't let facts get in the way of a good Muslim bashing.

I think the conversation was referring to integration, not public disorder

[ultrablue]

So Enoch Powell was wrong then, surely? Apart from where some muslims are involved in your opinion.

Just had to correct this Mike. You are better than that.

[Mike E]

Just had to correct this Mike. You are better than that.

I meant it precisely how you typed it. Need to remind myself about the lack of tone in text.

[Paul]

Firstly using Shakespeare as a rational is a very odd way of trying to explain Henry's reasons for his campaign. You do realise it's a play don't you? A play that was written around 178 years after Henry's death, so to suggest a playwrights lines are accurate is laughable. Now quite how you've managed to find a reference to islam in my post is beyond me, as is your attempt to draw a parallel between islam and two Christian monarchs disputing their rights to a crown. The whole of the Medieval western world was Christian at that time and as such your analogy is redundant.

Initially you quoted Shakespeare and Henry to support your argument towards Ultrablue and "those of his ilk" for creating "the enemy within" which most people would read today as a reference to Islam and Muslims.

My response to you is in the play which you chose to quote to portray England's greatness the central character acts in the name of God to wreak vengeance on his enemies.

If you are going to use the words of this character in a play to glorify England you also have to accept the same character's words in relation to acting in the name of God.

[otto man]

The quote as you put it, was/is nothing more than an expression of patriotism and wasn't used in support of anything Paul.

[Al]

I think the conversation was referring to integration, not public disorder

Thank you yoda, absolutely right. I didn't know you were a black hater GAV. I think they integrated quite well, unlike the Muslims who live separately amongst us.

[Al]

Enoch Powell and Michael Foot were both opposed to us joining the EU.

They were men of foresight who realised that we were being conned with the "Common market" name when they really meant a Federal Europe and we fell for it and voted for it. Would we have done that if we had known that our laws would be made up by foreigners against our will?

[thenodrog]

You are ignoring Al's point that the other immigrants he mentioned seem to integrate without to many problems, Enoch Powell was pro integration, something which some people overlook when they need a headline.

Indeed so. Didn't he have direct involvement in HMS Windrush's arrival?

Powells stance was primarily against additions in 68 to the existing Race Relations Act first passed in 65. He felt it had gone too far and would give to much power to immigrants over the indigenous population. I doubt anybody can disagree given the fullness of time.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/november/26/newsid_3220000/3220635.stm

[thenodrog]

Ah ok, whenwhenever his speech gets mentioned it seems to be in a general anti-immigration kind of post. Didn't know it was more reasonable than that.

Read it then Mike. Definitely 60's terminology but spoken from a sense of duty to the nation, and with feeling and hardly a Corporal Jones 'they don't like it up em Captain Mainwareing' type call to arms against the fuzzy wuzzys was it?. Note two of the opening paragraphs.

"The supreme function of statesmanship is to provide against preventable evils. In seeking to do so, it encounters obstacles which are deeply rooted in human nature."

and

"At all events, the discussion of future grave but, with effort now, avoidable evils is the most unpopular and at the same time the most necessary occupation for the politician. Those who knowingly shirk it deserve, and not infrequently receive, the curses of those who come after".

History and current events have verified that Heath unfortunately shirked it, effectively ended Powells political career and deserves all our curses.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/3643823/Enoch-Powells-Rivers-of-Blood-speech.html

[thenodrog]

Thank you yoda, absolutely right. I didn't know you were a black hater GAV. I think they integrated quite well, unlike the Muslims who live separately amongst us.

I constantly find that colour prejudice / racism / and religious bigotry are frequently interchangeable in the minds of many people. Completely wrong to do so of course but it appears an easy option for some.

[Gav]

I think the conversation was referring to integration, not public disorder

Are the two things not linked

Thank you yoda, absolutely right. I didn't know you were a black hater GAV. I think they integrated quite well, unlike the Muslims who live separately amongst us.

Black hater

I was just picking holes in your warped views Al.

[Gav]

Ah ok, whenwhenever his speech gets mentioned it seems to be in a general anti-immigration kind of post. Didn't know it was more reasonable than that.

Please have a good read on the subject and don't take the opinions on here as being anywhere near the facts of the matter.

A few posters 'opinions' are agenda driven Mike, with little or no experience of life outside Lancashires boundries

[imy9]

Thank you yoda, absolutely right. I didn't know you were a black hater GAV. I think they integrated quite well, unlike the Muslims who live separately amongst us.

I've left this convo well alone but enough is enough. I am Muslim and am perfectly integrated into British life as is my family and every Muslim person I have encountered. Every poll taken suggests that British Muslims feel more British than every other group, yet these ridiculous statements are made.

[yoda]

Are the two things not linked

Black hater

I was just picking holes in your warped views Al.

Why should they be linked, not sure what you mean by that

I've left this convo well alone but enough is enough. I am Muslim and am perfectly integrated into British life as is my family and every Muslim person I have encountered. Every poll taken suggests that British Muslims feel more British than every other group, yet these ridiculous statements are made.

Maybe it's different in Brum and probably depends on which part of Brum you live in.

[imy9]

Why should they be linked, not sure what you mean by that

Maybe it's different in Brum and probably depends on which part of Brum you live in.

The vast majority of Muslims in these areas are now 3rd generation and are fully integrated into British society. Just because you live in an area which is populated with people who are the same religion as you does not make you any less integrated.

Speak to young Muslims and you see that they feel attacked by the media and people's perceptions of them. Considering and treating them like outsiders will alienate a number and is part of a bigger issue.

I think the key point to be made is that every person is an individual and has to take responsibility for their actions. This goes for integration or anything else.

[yoda]

The vast majority of Muslims in these areas are now 3rd generation and are fully integrated into British society. Just because you live in an area which is populated with people who are the same religion as you does not make you any less integrated.

Speak to young Muslims and you see that they feel attacked by the media and people's perceptions of them. Considering and treating them like outsiders will alienate a number and is part of a bigger issue.

I think the key point to be made is that every person is an individual and has to take responsibility for their actions. This goes for integration or anything else.

How would you propose to change the perception ?

I have never knowingly treated someone as an outsider but can tell you I was once treated like an outsider in a restaurant in Blackburn by one of the waiters who took great delight in telling me that one day all English people would work for Muslims. Unfortunately for him I knew the restaurant owner (Nic Ganghi) who sacked him after we had left.

Is there not a group in Brum that is calling for the introduction of Shia law by the way ?

[imy9]

How would you propose to change the perception ?

I have never knowingly treated someone as an outsider but can tell you I was once treated like an outsider in a restaurant in Blackburn by one of the waiters who took great delight in telling me that one day all English people would work for Muslims. Unfortunately for him I knew the restaurant owner (Nic Ganghi) who sacked him after we had left.

Is there not a group in Brum that is calling for the introduction of Shia law by the way ?

The sad thing is that the perception won't be changed. The media is fixed in what it portrays. The way around this is to make sure people are educated and judge people individually and not on stereotypes.

Your example highlights that you met a k!@# and he was rightly fired. However look at the figures and the number of hate crimes against Muslim people is rising in England and Europe.

I'm sure there is a group wanting sharia law implemented. I want a system where rich are taxed more and society is a more fairer wasnts. that's the beauty of living in a free and democratic society, we have every right to voice an opinion-doesnt mean it's going to happen. Islamically you should follow the laws of the land anyway.

So as much as I hate the likes of Anjum Chaudry, as long as he is not breaking any laws he is free to voice whatever opinion he wants.

[yoda]

The sad thing is that the perception won't be changed. The media is fixed in what it portrays. The way around this is to make sure people are educated and judge people individually and not on stereotypes.

Your example highlights that you met a k!@# and he was rightly fired. However look at the figures and the number of hate crimes against Muslim people is rising in England and Europe.

I'm sure there is a group wanting sharia law implemented. I want a system where rich are taxed more and society is a more fairer wasnts. that's the beauty of living in a free and democratic society, we have every right to voice an opinion-doesnt mean it's going to happen. Islamically you should follow the laws of the land anyway.

So as much as I hate the likes of Anjum Chaudry, as long as he is not breaking any laws he is free to voice whatever opinion he wants.

Not when it amounts to harassing a Police officer for wearing a help for heroes wrist band, that would be the heroes that stand on the wall to provide the freedom he abuses

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3CXmQhv--0

[Jock]

Cherie Blair won't be winning business woman of the year. She'd be better sticking to the gravy train law courts. Let's hope wobbly head looks after her employees.

[imy9]

Not when it amounts to harassing a Police officer for wearing a help for heroes wrist band, that would be the heroes that stand on the wall to provide the freedom he abuses

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3CXmQhv--0

As I said he hasn't broken any laws so don't see an issue with it.

Interesting video though, I wouldn't for example as a teacher wear a 'free Palestine' wristband (even though I support the cause) as I don't want my pupils seeing me take an openly political stance on a controversial topic. A larger debate on whether front line public sector workers should openly support causes that are political.

[Tom]

Supporting the countries wounded soldiers is hardly political is it now?

[imy9]

Supporting the countries wounded soldiers is hardly political is it now?

The argument is that they are fighting wars overseas and if you give money to them then this could be seen to be potentially supporting a political cause?

I have given money to them in the past but I personally don't wear anything political