[Archived] The changing face of English football

[patrickvalery]

The possession game - right or wrong?

[patrickvalery]

I just saw a league table on the sides with most possession in the premier league and a very basic correlation between that and their league position. Now it became clear that there was a link between possession and performance in terms of league position. It lead me to thinking. Are we now facing the start of the end for the likes of Allardyce, Pulis etc..?. And is the future in possession football? Ok Spain would suggest yes, but doesn't football go in cycles? I dont know.

Can football matches be won with heart and desire anymore or is it all about technique and the ability to keep the ball better than your opponents.

And if so is this a good thing?

[Sparky Marky]

No mate, generally the team that has the ball most will win the game....that's been the case forever. You might get the odd exception to the rule....I don't believe it matters what the so-called style of play is, by definition, more possession, more success.

[Salgado Is A Hero]

Bit of both.

Even the top English teams play direct sometimes. A problem for them is sometimes they don't like to do it as much in Europe and can get largely outplayed by an Ajax or someone like that, who have much more experience of it.

Spurs at the moment suffer from it. Too slow build up play that doesn't create chances. People fawned over Rodgers' Swansea even though, pre-Sigurdsson, that was just passing it around the back and Leon Brittan, until Dyer or Sinclair got the ball, skipped past a couple of challenges and created something.

Spain/Barca don't need to go direct because, up until last season, it looked like they had it down to a tee. But if you watch Bayern, or particularly Juventus, they can go direct quite a bit as well. Most teams employ a mixture.

I'm not a fan of the "long-ball game" because I don't think it helps young players improve their technical ability.

But football for me should be a mixture of possession, directness in terms of taking people on, counter-attacking and hitting it long if needs be or occasionally.

I can get just as bored watching Spain as I did watching Stoke.

On your last point, no team would win anything without heart and desire. Barca/Spain are the perfect examples, but it was only after watching Brazil live against Scotland that I realised how good they were without the ball as well.

[patrickvalery]

Well is that the case? Swansea finished top of the league in question but aren't top of the actual league. Yes I appreciate the more you have the ball the more you can affect the.game. But can a more direct approach conquer they possession game? Is it a dead art?

For the sake of balance, your argument stands up in terms of the better sides in the division had better possession stats. But what I'm asking is, can this possession game we hear so much about be countered? Is it the new fashionable thing or is it genuinely the most effective way to play football. Just after opinions.

Sorry salgado, that was in response to sparky.

[Majiball]

Spain - possesion

Germany - Counter attack

Practically every club at every level plays this way in these countries.

A lot of people say the real issue is too many styles. Imagine you work doing a job that requires you entry data using a b c for 15-20 years. you then move on same job better pay but they use x y z to enter the data. how many times will you get it wrong because doing a b c for 5-20 years would make it almost robotic or natural to do. Translate that to football and the very different styles played here? A jack of all and a master of none.

I'd like to keep the pace and physicality of the British game and combine it with possession. Spain on speed forcing the pass through physicality rather than patience.

[Sandiway Blue]

No mate, generally the team that has the ball most will win the game....that's been the case forever. You might get the odd exception to the rule....I don't believe it matters what the so-called style of play is, by definition, more possession, more success.

Except for that bloody game against Crewe in the 1999/2000 season!

I've long been of the opinion that if you keep the ball longer then how are the opposition going to create chances? it frustrates the hell out of me when you see our keeper hoofing the ball up the pitch knowing there's a 50/50 chance it will go to the opposition,when the hardest part of the game is getting and keeping possession.

[Sparky Marky]

Well is that the case? Swansea finished top of the league in question but aren't top of the actual league. Yes I appreciate the more you have the ball the more you can affect the.game. But can a more direct approach conquer they possession game? Is it a dead art?

For the sake of balance, your argument stands up in terms of the better sides in the division had better possession stats. But what I'm asking is, can this possession game we hear so much about be countered? Is it the new fashionable thing or is it genuinely the most effective way to play football. Just after opinions.

Sorry salgado, that was in response to sparky.

New? You watch the 1970 WC Final...don't think Italy got a kick....it's nothing new.

[thenodrog]

I can get just as bored watching Spain as I did watching Stoke.

Alleluia.

I'm not a misguided football purist nor a head in the clouds Championship Manager geek BUT Long balls/ short balls are bolluxx. The game is all about good balls and bad balls.

Except for that bloody game against Crewe in the 1999/2000 season!

I've long been of the opinion that if you keep the ball longer then how are the opposition going to create chances? it frustrates the hell out of me when you see our keeper hoofing the ball up the pitch knowing there's a 50/50 chance it will go to the opposition,when the hardest part of the game is getting and keeping possession.

"it only takes a second to score a goal" Brian Clough.

Consider........... The possession stats for last weeks 6-0 mauling of Spurs by Man City were approx 55:45 in favour of Spurs!

[Amo]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYUa7DpPses

[roversfan99]

To be honest the reason that the more successful teams tend to dominate possession is because they can afford better quality technical players.

Managers like Allardyce are successful and respected within the game because they look to find alternate ways to win with the skills at their disposal.

[patrickvalery]

New? You watch the 1970 WC Final...don't think Italy got a kick....it's nothing new.

Its new to the English game. You listen to any football phone in and fans are demanding prettier football. The fa task commission was set up to muse ways the English game can become more technically proficient.

Is there a place for pragmatic managers and pragmatic football anymore? The niche managers such as Allardyce and Pulis have carved out is bottom end sides who want to stay on thw gravy train. What im asking is can English football accommodate this style anymore? Are we getting too hung up over possession and style over substance? And ultimately where does this lead? If we like what we see with the Spanish and copy it, will we ever get there and if we do will it still be in vogue?

My own opinion is that we need to forget this copycat approach because it is a never ending process. 3-5 years ago it was Spain everyone envied. Now its germany. But who next? I have never understood why, when most foreign imports bemoan the pace and frantic nature of football in England, we line up internationally and try to match them at their own game. Why can't the frenetic nature of our league be utilised in our national side. And more to the point, are we happy to see our club sides emulate these 'prettier' clubs? Does the trend suggest our domestic league is going through an identify crisis?

[Jimmy612]

I just saw a league table on the sides with most possession in the premier league and a very basic correlation between that and their league position. Now it became clear that there was a link between possession and performance in terms of league position. It lead me to thinking. Are we now facing the start of the end for the likes of Allardyce, Pulis etc..?. And is the future in possession football? Ok Spain would suggest yes, but doesn't football go in cycles? I dont know.

Can football matches be won with heart and desire anymore or is it all about technique and the ability to keep the ball better than your opponents.

And if so is this a good thing?

Can we see this table Patrick, would be interesting to read.

What I would say is that you can discount the 'top 6' from your readings as they have far and away the best players - so maybe United, City, Chelsea, Arsenal, Lpool, Spurs will always usually have the most possession because they have the best players.

After that we can perhaps begin to focus on the other 14 and try to find some kind correlation between possession and results.

Fact is, I believe there will always be a requirement for direct play, simply because if you are under pressure then you can relieve it very well with say, an Andy Carroll up top. Also if you are playing a technically better side then you aren't going to try to pass it around them, rather you play percentages and knock it up towards your big man. Your team is much more even in the air than on the floor in most circumstance.

Football fans are very strange. They often want tippy-tappy nice football but also the results. In some circumstance this can work i.e. Laudrup is doing a decent job at Swansea, Martinez struggled at Wigan but is now reaping the benefits of technically better players at Everton. But who plays up front for these teams? Michu, Lukaku and Bony. All big lads who provide an outlet if things get sticky.

I personally believe that there will always be a place in football for the direct style as so many teams are now inferior technically. Play the percentages and make sure the ball is in the oppositions half, you're more likely to score from there than they are. But also you must be constructive with this style. You must have the players to fit your side. Wham are missing Carroll terribly. If they get him fit then they will be a different outfit altogether. It will change Nolan's game too and they will be absolutely fine.

[Rover_Shaun]

Managers like Allardyce are successful and respected within the game because they look to find alternate ways to win with the skills at their disposal.

It all depends on your perspective of success. Is it winning trophies or is it influenced by more modern "stay up at all costs, money is god" premierhship survival notions? I must say I got far more enjoyment from winning the league cup than I have since.

Maybe I'm too old school? (regarding what makes a top flight manager a success)

[Majiball]

Can we see this table Patrick, would be interesting to read.

What I would say is that you can discount the 'top 6' from your readings as they have far and away the best players - so maybe United, City, Chelsea, Arsenal, Lpool, Spurs will always usually have the most possession because they have the best players.

After that we can perhaps begin to focus on the other 14 and try to find some kind correlation between possession and results.

Fact is, I believe there will always be a requirement for direct play, simply because if you are under pressure then you can relieve it very well with say, an Andy Carroll up top. Also if you are playing a technically better side then you aren't going to try to pass it around them, rather you play percentages and knock it up towards your big man. Your team is much more even in the air than on the floor in most circumstance.

Football fans are very strange. They often want tippy-tappy nice football but also the results. In some circumstance this can work i.e. Laudrup is doing a decent job at Swansea, Martinez struggled at Wigan but is now reaping the benefits of technically better players at Everton. But who plays up front for these teams? Michu, Lukaku and Bony. All big lads who provide an outlet if things get sticky.

I personally believe that there will always be a place in football for the direct style as so many teams are now inferior technically. Play the percentages and make sure the ball is in the oppositions half, you're more likely to score from there than they are. But also you must be constructive with this style. You must have the players to fit your side. Wham are missing Carroll terribly. If they get him fit then they will be a different outfit altogether. It will change Nolan's game too and they will be absolutely fine.

You can't just dismiss 30% of the teams in the league because you feel they have better players. In that case you can discount palace, fulham, west ham, stoke cardiff and sunderland as their players aren't good enough. If your going to do it it must be representative of the whole population not those you deem suitable.

[thenodrog]

People are making this too complicated.

Q. Where do the likes of superstars Nasri, Silva, Mata, Wilshire, Hazard, Ozil, Cazorla, Kagawa, Janusaj, Coutinho, Gerrard want the ball played?

A. To feet.

Q. Where do they not like the ball.

A In the air.

Simple logic dictates that the longer a team can keep it away from their feet and up in the air then the better chance they have of beating them.

Hardly rocket science is it?

[Majiball]

i can now see West ham players trying to master dribbling with the ball on their heads.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYlqql38XkY

[yoda]

i can now see West ham players trying to master dribbling with the ball on their heads.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYlqql38XkY

coco has already mastered dribbling with his head

[Majiball]