[Archived] Brum, Brum, 29/12/13, the debate goes on!

[thenodrog]

Could robbo be any worse? He needs games to get back fit / upto speed, so give him games I say

By that statement FG you are obviously quite willing to play an unfit and sub par keeper! Not only that but one who was no great shakes in his pomp.

[JAL]

Have you taken leave of your senses? Eastwood made one rick on Saturday and you'd have us drop him in favour of Jake Kean who of late has made one a week!

Was thinking more of Paul Robinson which is probably a bit too early I know.

Seeing the long range shot again he makes two massive mistakes, very poor goalkeeping cost Rovers the game in the end.

[thenodrog]

The Dann debate is getting stupid now, he's been our most consistent performer over the past 18 months and you want to sell him? Until yesterday we had a fantastic defensive record at home, the defence isn't the issue.

I fear that over the past few weeks I may have helped to provide the natural successor to Lowe that our boo boys continually crave by highlighting Dann's godawful distribution.

........ I honestly believe that the playoff places are easily breachable if we can get Evans and Cairney in the centre and change little else.

Dunn is the key for me.... unfortunately pinning our hopes on a hypochondriac who seems to revel in playing at being injured isn't the best way forward to achieve that aim.

[Stuart]

By that statement FG you are obviously quite willing to play an unfit and sub par keeper! Not only that but one who was no great shakes in his pomp when fit for Rovers.

Corrected. In his pomp he was playing for England!

[thenodrog]

I've stuck up for "Lowey" in the past but Evans is a far more complete player than him or Williamson could hope to be. Will the manager realize this before it's too late?

I'm sure he well knows that but what the hell can the manager do when Evans has been out with a serious injury for so long?

[AlvinStraight]

Rochina who I'm a big fan of showed some exquisite touches yesterday and helped keep us flowing first half but overall when it came to the final third was fairly poor. Unfortunately whenever he gets an appearance he seems to have to put in a MOTM appearance from the bench for 10 mins or prove himself on his first start for months knowing if he doesn't have a stormer he'll be dropped again for the next game and he couldn't produce yesterday. Probably needs a run of five or six games to build some consistency and sadly almost certainly won't get it.

Some! he had a shed load of exquisite touches, problem is 75% of his final 'touches' where to give the ball away to the oppo, yesterday was his big chance and he blew it, He should now be at the bottom of the pecking order and doesn't deserve another start unless its forced through injuries.

[aletheia]

Whilst it’s quiet and xmas, a few possible shapes for you. The possibilities are many but ALL of them are better than those we use at present.

-All require Cairney inside.

-Lowe has a great engine, and can do a job screening or imho be a great right back. Williamson could also screen but not he and Lowe together.

-GK –you decide. 2 prone to errors, 1 not fit.

-I realise Evans has been a big miss due to injury.

-these are all effectively 451 or variants on. 442 is too rigid most of the time.

-you’ll notice no Dunn or Rochina. Dunn obviously can replace who you like in the hole but cannot be relied on for any length of time. Rochina ditto.

1 GK

Henley Dann Hanley Spurr

Lowe OR Williamson

King Evans Cairney Marshall

Rhodes

2 GK

Henley Dann Hanley Spurr

Lowe OR Williamson

Judge Evans Cairney Marshall

Rhodes

3 GK

Henley Dann Hanley Spur

Lowe OR Williamson

Judge Evans Cairney King

Rhodes

4 GK

Henley Dann Hanley Spurr

Lowe OR Williamson

King Evans Cairney Gestede

Rhodes

5 GK

Henley Dann Hanley Spurr

Lowe OR Williamson

Gestede Evans Cairney Marshall

Rhodes

6 GK

Henley Dann Hanley Spur

Lowe OR Williamson

Judge Evans Cairney Gestede

Rhodes

7 Lowe as right back and subsequent variants.

GK

Lowe Dann Hanley Spurr

Williamson

Then all the variations of the front 5 from above

8 For all of you who would like to see neither Lowe or Williamson in the side (foolish imho)

GK

Henley Dann Hanley Spurr

Judge Evans Cairney King

Marshall

Rhodes

9 No Lowe or Williamson –using pace of King up top.

GK

Henley Dann Hanley Spurr

Judge Evans Cairney Marshall

King

Rhodes

11 No Lowe or Williamson –using muscle of Gestede up top.

GK

Henley Dann Hanley Spurr

Judge Evans Cairney Marshall

Gestede

Rhodes

12 No Lowe or Williamson –same as 11 but with King in for Judge –our most attacking side?

GK

Henley Dann Hanley Spurr

King Evans Cairney Marshall

Gestede

Rhodes

PS good post boz.

[Amo]

I'm sure he well knows that but what the hell can the manager do when Evans has been out with a serious injury for so long?

I don't recall Evans keeping Lowe out of the side before his injury, Gordon, and I don't foresee it afterwards.

Some! he had a shed load of exquisite touches, problem is 75% of his final 'touches' where to give the ball away to the oppo, yesterday was his big chance and he blew it, He should now be at the bottom of the pecking order and doesn't deserve another start unless its forced through injuries.

Rochina's had a layoff and played very little football in the last month or so. It's no wonder his touch and technique are going to be rusty, and hence more frustrating than usual. He's one of the few players who can create something out of nothing. You don't send a talent like that to the bottom of the pile.

[JAL]

I'm not convinced by Gestede, doesn't look like he'll be troubling the scorers too often to use cricket parlance and when he drops deep to try and collect the ball, (with varying degrees of success) he leaves Rhodes as isolated as if he were playing on his own up front.

It then needs someone in midfield with Tugay like passing abilities to try and pick Rhodes out and we don't have a player like that currently. Gested needs to learn to play closer to and in partnership with Rhodes if he were to be a real asset and I'd say another striker who actually knows where the net is is more important than a back to goal target man per se.

First impressions of Gestede arent good, though suppose hes got another month to prove himself but with a record of a goal every eight games or more at this level, it isnt inspiring for the supporters.

[thenodrog]

Corrected. In his pomp he was playing for England!

Oh yes I remember........... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtF9tl5SLdA

here's another fine example of an England keeper...

and another.....

and another.....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeanjcyLwzw

Nowt much to beat there is there? To think we used to take the p1ss out of Scottish keepers!

[Stuart]

Cheap shot. Every keeper IN THE WORLD makes mistakes. However, in England, the media and tribal football fans who lap it all up, will gladly destroy a player's confidence, form and career to their own benefit. It's why England will never win another major tournament.

Sad but true.

[somersetrover]

Rochina's had a layoff and played very little football in the last month or so. It's no wonder his touch and technique are going to be rusty, and hence more frustrating than usual. He's one of the few players who can create something out of nothing. You don't send a talent like that to the bottom of the pile.

What talent he's been at the club three years now and shown little talent. He's an overrated, lazy, showpony, who plays for himself. For some people though since he has been injured he has transformed into someone that will transform our season after a decent 25 minutes a Derby and because he is from La Masia. Judge hasn't been playing much recently either but he did more in 20 minutes than Rochina did in 70.

[DE.]

Cheap shot. Every keeper IN THE WORLD makes mistakes. However, in England, the media and tribal football fans who lap it all up, will gladly destroy a player's confidence, form and career to their own benefit. It's why England will never win another major tournament.

Sad but true.

I'd say it's mainly because England's players have nowhere near the technical ability of their rivals tbh. The media and fans had the same mentality in the 90's and England still did alright, but the game moved on and we didn't move with it.

[thenodrog]

Cheap shot. Every keeper IN THE WORLD makes mistakes.

Whilst I agree with that bit in bold isn't it also a cheap shot to make an exception of Eastwood? Why is he not allowed to make the odd cock up?

[dazmaz]

Oh yes I remember........... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GtF9tl5SLdA

You cannot use that as a stick to beat Robbo.

2 huge reasons.

1st. the ball should never of been played goalwards. ALWAYS put it way from goal, just in case something like that happens

2nd. Watch the video again, this time look closely at what the ball does just before Robbo tried to put his foot through it. (the angle behind goal is the best view) see how it bounces up about 2" away from where his foot would of made contact with the ball? Its called a bobble, and frankly there is nothing on this planet Robbo could have done to prevent that happening.

[Stuart]

Whilst I agree with that bit in bold isn't it also a cheap shot to make an exception of Eastwood? Why is he not allowed to make the odd cock up?

I've never said he wasn't, old chap.

He and Kean will make mistakes because they are learning - much like Bowyer. Sadly we don't seem to have the luxury of time for either to learn their respective trades.

[FGS5635]

By that statement FG you are obviously quite willing to play an unfit and sub par keeper! Not only that but one who was no great shakes in his pomp.

We have played sub par keepers all season. Like I said it cant get worse, so why not

[Amo]

What talent he's been at the club three years now and shown little talent.

Well that's plainly not true. Also, in that time he's been managed by Kean, Berg, and Appleton. None of whom were equipped to scratch their asses, let alone transform a talented show-pony into the real deal. Rochina's a frustrating player, to be sure, but there's very few at the club with his natural skill and ability.

He's an overrated, lazy, showpony, who plays for himself. For some people though since he has been injured he has transformed into someone that will transform our season after a decent 25 minutes a Derby and because he is from La Masia. Judge hasn't been playing much recently either but he did more in 20 minutes than Rochina did in 70.

It wasn't long ago that he almost scored against Yeovil with a sublime rabona.

Judge hasn't been out for months with a shoulder injury, has he?

[Mike E]

I wouldn't say Rochina is a 'like-for-like' for Dunn at all. He's an enigma. He's a luxury that is brilliant and sublime, but isn't enough of a team player. Judge, in his 20mins on the pitch, showed fantastic ball control (including dropping a long ball over his shoulder to a dead stop at his feet), plenty of direct running not dissimilar to what we've seen from Dunn (and a much improved Marshall) and the ability to put in a decent cross instead of dribbling down the goal-line.

Judge has the technique of Rochina, but the mindset of the English, direct style that served us so well for both our goals yesterday, served us so brilliantly under Hughes and helped win us the title under Kenny. He's no Speedie, Bentley or Gillespie, but he can run down the touchline, has balance, remarkable strength vs a couple of the biggest centre-backs I've seen, has touch, vision and passing ability that is equal to Dunn. That's not to mention his constant running after balls that Rhodes often leaves to roll out for a goal kick (though I'll admit, Rhodes had an amazing all-round game yesterday, just hope he keeps it up).

In my mind, Judge's 20minutes vs Brum had me feeling the same as Taylor's resurrection against Leeds. I hope he's rewarded with either a longer appearance from the bench or a start in Rochina's place. After what I saw at Brum, I would start (I'm sure I've said before, maybe even on this thread) Taylor, Judge and Marshall as the rotating 3 behind Rhodes.

[Blue blood]

I wouldn't say Rochina is a 'like-for-like' for Dunn at all. He's an enigma. He's a luxury that is brilliant and sublime, but isn't enough of a team player. Judge, in his 20mins on the pitch, showed fantastic ball control (including dropping a long ball over his shoulder to a dead stop at his feet), plenty of direct running not dissimilar to what we've seen from Dunn (and a much improved Marshall) and the ability to put in a decent cross instead of dribbling down the goal-line.

Judge has the technique of Rochina, but the mindset of the English, direct style that served us so well for both our goals yesterday, served us so brilliantly under Hughes and helped win us the title under Kenny. He's no Speedie, Bentley or Gillespie, but he can run down the touchline, has balance, remarkable strength vs a couple of the biggest centre-backs I've seen, has touch, vision and passing ability that is equal to Dunn. That's not to mention his constant running after balls that Rhodes often leaves to roll out for a goal kick (though I'll admit, Rhodes had an amazing all-round game yesterday, just hope he keeps it up).

In my mind, Judge's 20minutes vs Brum had me feeling the same as Taylor's resurrection against Leeds. I hope he's rewarded with either a longer appearance from the bench or a start in Rochina's place. After what I saw at Brum, I would start (I'm sure I've said before, maybe even on this thread) Taylor, Judge and Marshall as the rotating 3 behind Rhodes.

It must have been an amazing 20 minutes because I've not seen any of those attributes in any of the other games he's played!

[somersetrover]

Well that's plainly not true. Also, in that time he's been managed by Kean, Berg, and Appleton. None of whom were equipped to scratch their asses, let alone transform a talented show-pony into the real deal. Rochina's a frustrating player, to be sure, but there's very few at the club with his natural skill and ability.

It wasn't long ago that he almost scored against Yeovil with a sublime rabona.

Judge hasn't been out for months with a shoulder injury, has he?

What ability he has not shown any of it in three years, this mystique people have over Rochina I'm sure is based on the fact he is Spanish and from the Barca academy. As for the effort against Yeovil it was going over and he should of passed anyway. Rochina is one of those players that looks good in youtube clips or match highlights, but over the course of the match he is not good enough.

[Amo]

I wouldn't say Rochina is a 'like-for-like' for Dunn at all. He's an enigma. He's a luxury that is brilliant and sublime, but isn't enough of a team player. Judge, in his 20mins on the pitch, showed fantastic ball control (including dropping a long ball over his shoulder to a dead stop at his feet), plenty of direct running not dissimilar to what we've seen from Dunn (and a much improved Marshall) and the ability to put in a decent cross instead of dribbling down the goal-line.

Rochina is almost certainly the closest thing we have to a No.10 after Dunn.

Judge has the technique of Rochina...

He really, REALLY, doesn't. But I agree that Judge should be featuring more. He's an industrious and creative little player and offers something different.

What ability he has not shown any of it in three years, this mystique people have over Rochina I'm sure is based on the fact he is Spanish and from the Barca academy.

That's a strange argument. His education at La Masia is an inseparable reason for why he's such a talented footballer in the first place.

As for the effort against Yeovil it was going over and he should of passed anyway. Rochina is one of those players that looks good in youtube clips or match highlights, but over the course of the match he is not good enough.

Looked on target to me, and the 'keeper wasn't taking any chances by tipping it over. Fact remains that no one else in Rovers squad would have the audacity to produce such a sublime piece of skill. The only other one who could... well, it didn't work out too well for him last time.

[roversfan99]

He had a shot tipped over the bar at the end of the day. That is all.

[Brfcrule1]

So drop Eastwood for making a mistake and bring back Kean who makes them all the time, do we want to destroy all our keepers confidence?

Eastwoods mistake was a howler (with Hanley equally to blame) but he did make two world class saves after more poor defending

Either way each keeper has flaws but flip flopping between them after each mistake won't help anyoneSpot on Tom

Spot on Tom Hanley was so close to the keeper passing back to him was never an option Hanley should really have knocked it into row z

[Waggy76]

Put a fit Robinson into the mix and that defense is good enough to win promotion for me, sadly the rest of the side isn't, I agree with that.

Its a general comment not just aimed at you JAL, plenty of people are questioning Dann which is baffling to me.

Are you being a ***** for the sake of it? or do you have something of substance to say on the subject?