[Archived] Safe Standing - the 'how' not the 'why'

[Stuart]

This has been done several times from a safety perspective and my view is that safe standing is possible as demonstrated with the modern German stadia.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/dec/28/safe-standing-football-league-hillsborough

However it is looking like the is very likely to come back. Not sure how clubs with an all-seater stadium would go about ripping out seats and exactly where they would locate standing areas - or would a whole end be allocated. We may as well put them right across the Darwen End Lower and probably the BBE lower - perhaps the lower half - all the way across.

Anyone have any suggestions? I'm sure the club will be interested if it get bums on seats bums stood up.

[AndyNeil]

Taken from the Fans Forum meeting during January 2013...

Safe Standing Campaign

BS advised the meeting of the Safe Standing Campaign currently being

run by the Football Supporters Federation. They were campaigning with

some MPs for a change in the law to allow safe standing areas to be

introduced. A large number of clubs were supporting the campaign and a

few had already committed to running a trial if approved. He asked

whether the club were willing to lend their support. DS replied that he

was in favour of the campaign in principle, although he doubted whether

the club would be able to afford to make the necessary changes to

existing stands.

In principle I'm in favour of the reintroduction of safe standing areas in the ground - probably the lower tier of the Blackburn End and Darwen End which still leaves plenty of seating seats for those who would prefer to sit. The only problem I can see (except cost) are the people who will say, "well I've sat in my seat for X years and don't want to stand, why should I move" - a problem I suspect that won't be exclusive to our club.

It will be interesting to see how the Football League clubs (and if it gets that far down the line, the Sports Minister) respond to this proposal given the football grounds, supporters and policing is a world away from that of the 1980's.

[Andy]

You don't go to a football match to stand, you go to sit down and watch the game.

Anybody over 30 won't agree, but that's how the game has been for a couple of decades now.

I don't see any reason why our game should regress.

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

A new Riverside stand to accommodate this kind of arrangement would be to the benefit of all but due to the impending financial collapse of the club if promotion is not achieved and also our dreaded owners not giving a toss, this idea will remain pie in the sky.

[cn174]

Well having been to several German grounds where this is implemented, there's a few different designs.

The first - and easiest to implement - is just to allow standing where the seats are. This is what they have at Hertha Berlin where I was last week. Basically you are still allocated a place, but you can stand there.

The next step is to add an extra leaning ledge a bit higher than the seat, a bit like the fences on the turnstiles. http://images.mirror.co.uk/upl/dailyrecord3/nov2011/3/5/terracing-978227561.jpg

Dortmund has a normal old style terrace for league games, they just take all the seats out completely.

It's very simple, but no doubt the powers that be will spend zillions on thinking about it.

[AndyNeil]

when the seats are flipped down, for CL / Europa League matches, is the eye line above or below the bar (or knowing my luck, bang on the line )

[cn174]

when the seats are flipped down, for CL / Europa League matches, is the eye line above or below the bar (or knowing my luck, bang on the line )

They have that seating on the corners at Dortmund and I remember it was ok.

That said, just because it is the CL/Europa League just means there has to be actual seats, it doesn't mean you have to sit down!

[Ozz]

Some viewing material can be found here

https://www.youtube.com/user/SafeStandingRoadshow?feature=watch

[Stuart]

A new Riverside stand to accommodate this kind of arrangement would be to the benefit of all but due to the impending financial collapse of the club if promotion is not achieved and also our dreaded owners not giving a toss, this idea will remain pie in the sky.

I can't imagine there being much call for it in the Riverside, although I agree it wouldd kill two birds with one stone. There is definitely a need to update that stand - if only to remove the stantions.

Given the demographic of people who would prefer to stand (if there is one?) I'd say they aren't in the Riverside. So you would end up having BBenders still standing up in the corners and fewer people in the Riverside.

Whilst I'm in favour of some standing areas and think there is definitely a demand from the supporter-base nationally, my lads wouldn't be able to see the match so we'd probably have to move to an oversubscribed and not-quite-nou-camp-sque family stand above the BBE.

Perhaps the end sections of the BBE lower where the corner on the JW and Riverside could be standing areas.

I'd also like to see some bespoke disabled sections, in a renovated Riverside, a la Wigan where those who need access, and who would prefer it, could have a more elevated view of the match.

[Majiball]

Isn't this only in the football league? So what happens to it if you go up?

[Stuart]

By the looks if it, you get 3 years to add seats?

[cn174]

By the looks if it, you get 3 years to add seats?

Well if you do it properly then seats/no seats can be interchangeable like at Dortmund (though I'd hate to have that job of putting 15,000 seats up every other Tuesday!).

Like you said I dont think we need to convert our entire stadium - I think half of the Blackburn End would be plenty to begin with and there'll have to be a little bit of leeway from all people if we are going to create an area of standing.

[yoda]

You don't go to a football match to stand, you go to sit down and watch the game.

Anybody over 30 won't agree, but that's how the game has been for a couple of decades now.

I don't see any reason why our game should regress.

yep, a bit difficult keeping the cucumber on yer sarni when your bouincing up and down

[broadsword]

I'm over 30 and I wouldn't want to stand again. can't see the point, I'm too used to having a specific seat now and watching the game in relative comfort with a pretty decent view

[Duffy]

If you're going to start with a few "standing areas" and leave some seats in, then surely it would be better for the standing areas to be towards the back of a tier so as not to then obstruct the view of those sitting down? Lots of issues etc to take into account, I personally prefer to sit but also like being in the lower tiers as I find being higher up too far away from the action and sometimes too high - it's a heights thing!

Bit difficult for Championship sides if the Premier League aren't looking at this unless the seating with standing is permitable as being all seater, otherwise just a chore and financial drain keep changing for the sake of it especially if you yo-yo every 3 years!

Lots of issues and opinions to wade through - can't see this happening too soon bearing that in mind, though could see a few in favour clubs maybe being part of a trial.

[cn174]

I would think that although they wouldn't say it teams like Man U, Liverpool etc would be in favour of it. If you have a system like Dortmund, you can increase the capacity by about 10-15,000 by taking some of the seats out. Which means they'll be able to pack more people in without making the ground bigger.

I hope it does happen. It gives everyone the option - if you want to stand then you can (about 700 Rovers fans chose to stand at Yeovil last week) and if you want to sit down then you can.

[K-Hod]

I would think that although they wouldn't say it teams like Man U, Liverpool etc would be in favour of it. If you have a system like Dortmund, you can increase the capacity by about 10-15,000 by taking some of the seats out. Which means they'll be able to pack more people in without making the ground bigger.

I hope it does happen. It gives everyone the option - if you want to stand then you can (about 700 Rovers fans chose to stand at Yeovil last week) and if you want to sit down then you can.

Exactly right. If there is an area for standing, and one for seating then everyone can be happy.

Standing works at concerts.....

[Stuart]

I worry when points are raised, like Claire has done, that an extra 10-15,000 can be added to a gate (like United's) without increasing stadium size. I wouldn't expect to be squashed in any closer than the existing distance between seats and any more would teeter into over-crowding territory.

It's not politically correct but one of the key issues is sensitivities around Hillsborough. Any new regulations must take into account lessons learned that tragic day and in the years since but the event in itself should not be a barrier - especially since it has recently been proven that the causes that day were poor policing in an aging ground

Is now the time to bring about safe standing? If not, when will be the right time?

[rigger]

I total agree with having both standing and seated areas, let people have a choice.

[rigger]

Surely the post should read, some of the causes that day where poor policing and an aging ground

[Stuart]

Surely the post should read, some of the causes that day where poor policing and an aging ground

Potayto potahto

[Ben-2000]

Well the next best thing and something we have currently in the Darwen End is Unreserved seating.

Over the last few years a standing group has formed which doesn't impair the view of others who want to sit. Basically if you want to stand you know which part of the stand to go to (as many will already know).

[Willie Eckerslike]

The choice of which area is used for standing is going to be key.

You couldn't allocate the lower centre of the Blackburn End for fear of alienating too many season ticket holders who don't want to stand or be forced to give up their seats

If, however, an area with a less advantageous view is chosen , like the lower outside wing of the JW, then few people might want to swap, giving an illusion that standing has little support.

Personally, I think the Darwen End is the best option for a trial

[Stuart]

Darwen End: Away fans stand anyway and home fans stand in the upper rear corner.

What we are talking about is actual areas which are set up for standing. I agree about the choice of area being important because you won't be able to please everyone. Forcing people to move to stand or move to sit would cause some friction but it would depend how far the had to be displaced. E.g. a central BBE standing area. Do you only displace those in the middle to the edges - really upsetting a few hundred people? Or do you displace everyone in a ripple effect mildly upsetting a few thousand?

I like the idea of the front few rows of the BBE as they aren't densely populated and bring the atmosphere closer to the pitch. There would need to be a gap though before seated rows were started behind the last row of 'standees' unless you lower the angle of the terraced section. I could see an argument for the rows further back as standing though because people wouldn't have a blocked view. They would also overlook those at the front which may make them more likely to join in with songs/chants.

People standing tend to sing more [needs citation] in my opinion as groups can much more easily stand together. But there again, would each standee have a season ticket plot, for safety reasons, or would it be unreserved standing?

There's a lot to consider, and then you have to present a cost estimate to Shelfy...

[Ozz]

I understand that it would cost approx £100 per seat for a standard conversion. So if we had to do the lower tier of the Darwen end then that's around half a million quid? (Approx 5,000 seats)

But cost is the least pressing issue. I suspect that the Government has no desire to change legislation on this any time soon, especially so soon after the recent back tracking on the Hillsborough reports (despite this indicating the problem lied with the Police and not any inherent safety issues with standing over seating in big football grounds). I suspect the decision makers will most likely associate standing at big games with the re-introduction of large scale football violence, despite the evidence that may be presented before them. It would take a brave politician to make that call. A lot of trials and testing needs to be conducted in the UK really, just because something works well in Germany does not guarantee it will work with similar success in the UK-Ask anyone who went to the Koln Karnival in 2007-If they tried to hold that in England it would be carnage,