[Archived] Transfer embargo- Can anyone clarify...

[Stuart]

I don't really like Gartside but this is spot on - as we have found:

Chairman Phil Gartside said: "This year's results show the difficulties faced in the football business when a club has enjoyed a sustained and successful period in the Premier League, in our case 11 years, then suffers relegation back to the Football League Championship."

Probably why he was lobbying for a PL1 and PL2.

I expect Wigan will be in similar difficulties when Whelan calls time.

[Plastic Head]

http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/sport/wanderers/wanderersnews/10905726.Bolton_Wanderers__debt_reaches_record_levels/

Bolton look worse than us whats happend to uncle eddie??

So what seems to be said here is that another business which is owned by the same person or group as the football club can be re-badged as part of the football business and count towards their income for FFP purposes.

This makes a mockery of it surely?

[longsiders1882]

People at Rovers have said that whilst we would fall foul of the rules, so would a minimum of 5/6 other Championship clubs. It would be nice for the Football League to only have to punish 1 or 2 clubs from each division and 'make an example' of them for everyone else, like they have in the past in docking points from clubs like Portsmouth and Luton.

If however it is true that potentially a third of the Championship would all have to be sanctioned it is going to be a major headache and embarrassment for the Football League bigwigs. No doubt some of the owners at the clubs being punished would have a thing or two to say about it too. I would expect a legal challenge from at least one club if somebody tries to impose these sanctions.

One would expect QPR to be in massive difficulties if they fail to achieve promotion this season. Forest have been spending beyond their means, not to mention the likes of Middlesbrough, Reading, Ipswich, Bolton and Wigan, none of whom have much more income than us, yet have hefty wage structures in place. Even Burnley, who I keep being told are a model Championship club these days, have recently posted an £8 million loss, which if the measures were in place now would see them on the very threshold of being under an embargo themselves.

Just about every team relegated from the Premier League in future is going to make a choice between going for broke and spending to get back up or adhering to the rules and in the process limit their promotion chances.

Quite clearly we have to rid ourselves of Etuhu, Best, Campbell and Robinson, along with Nunes, Rochina, Goodwillie and Orr, by August 2014 at the latest. Even if these rules weren't coming in we would need to get shut of them anyway, for contributing nothing to the team effort this season in exchange for their considerable wages. If we get that noose off from around our neck then we're left with a squad by and large on a Championship footing, apart from Rhodes and Dann, one of which will leave in the summer anyway. Other than Rhodes, Dann, Goodwillie and Rochina I can't see any club paying any money for any of the above. If we manage to pay them off or cancel contracts then suddenly the wage bill looks a lot healthier.

Firstly I genuinely doubt anything with real teeth will be put in place or applied when it comes down to it.

Secondly, our 'loss' was under the threshold, relates to a period after we overspent in the PL and, we are led to believe, the cost base has been realigned to ensure we are within FFP.

I'm far from convinced we are a 'model' club by the way but, looking at our transfer business, an embargo on us will hardly cause a ripple :-)

[longsiders1882]

So Gartside says:

Chairman Phil Gartside said: "This year's results show the difficulties faced in the football business when a club has enjoyed a sustained and successful period in the Premier League, in our case 11 years, then suffers relegation back to the Football League Championship."

Well that is one interpretation of it. Another is a club that chose to consistently overspend for over a decade, during a period in which they have had the largest incomes in their history, has at best been mismanaged. Now before anybody jumps on me, I don't think we did any better during our brief sojourn into the Prem but perhaps if we had managed a longer stay our owners would have got a handle on the costs etc, who knows.

The simple facts are that it is time football clubs were brought to heel. In many cases they are the heartbeat of their communities and the wilful way some owners recklessly endanger their very existence has been allowed unchecked for far to long. Surely your club, who enjoyed a greater number of years in the top flight than Bolton, even after Jack Walkers money was effectively removed, managed to accrue only about 20 million in debt at the time you were sold? So with good governance it CAN be done.

[Stuart]

So Gartside says:

Well that is one interpretation of it. Another is a club that chose to consistently overspend for over a decade, during a period in which they have had the largest incomes in their history, has at best been mismanaged. Now before anybody jumps on me, I don't think we did any better during our brief sojourn into the Prem but perhaps if we had managed a longer stay our owners would have got a handle on the costs etc, who knows.

The simple facts are that it is time football clubs were brought to heel. In many cases they are the heartbeat of their communities and the wilful way some owners recklessly endanger their very existence has been allowed unchecked for far to long. Surely your club, who enjoyed a greater number of years in the top flight than Bolton, even after Jack Walkers money was effectively removed, managed to accrue only about 20 million in debt at the time you were sold? So with good governance it CAN be done.

It's a different world, longers. A sustained period in the PL mean your costs rise. A brief sojourn, without spending, does what it did for you and Blackpool. Provides a windfall for the directors and maybe covers the cost of some ground improvements.

But this is the issue, FFP will mean that clubs can get promoted from the Championship but then not be able to compete so come straight back down. The PL will effectively be a franchise by stealth with several yo-yo clubs and the odd FL tourist. A bit like it has been for a whole only more obvious.

[lraC]

So Gartside says:

Well that is one interpretation of it. Another is a club that chose to consistently overspend for over a decade, during a period in which they have had the largest incomes in their history, has at best been mismanaged. Now before anybody jumps on me, I don't think we did any better during our brief sojourn into the Prem but perhaps if we had managed a longer stay our owners would have got a handle on the costs etc, who knows.

The simple facts are that it is time football clubs were brought to heel. In many cases they are the heartbeat of their communities and the wilful way some owners recklessly endanger their very existence has been allowed unchecked for far to long. Surely your club, who enjoyed a greater number of years in the top flight than Bolton, even after Jack Walkers money was effectively removed, managed to accrue only about 20 million in debt at the time you were sold? So with good governance it CAN be done.

So far as I am concerned the very fact that most clubs in the premier league and further down the ladder for that matter, lose huge amounts of money. To me, it seems that football has got to the point were it cannot carry on. We all know that it has always been viewed as different than any other business type, but how the hell can clubs like Rovers, Burnley, Bolton, Wigan etc keep on losing such huge amounts of money?

As has been pointed out in Longisider's post, Rovers managed to by 'only' £20 million in debt at the point of the takeover. Why would any club want to compete at Premier league level, just to lose that sort of money? The financial makeup of football clubs, really baffles me now and I feel certain that what happened to Glasgow Rangers, will eventually happen to a big club in England, maybe not over Tax matters, but due to ridiculous over spending.

[longsiders1882]

That may be true Stuart HOWEVER, Bolton have lost 20-30 million a year for the last 5 years - and have made a loss every year in the Prem, in other words they didn't have financial control even with PL money - that is rank bad management.

[Rover_Shaun]

A transfer embargo should be the complete banning of incoming players.

Say it was and we needed to sell 80% of our entire playing squad (1st team and youth) to come out of an embargo. how do we fulfill our fixtures?

Re: embargo read "helping you get your house in order"

[Majiball]

You've hit the nail on the head with that. Everyone who comes down gambles on throwing everything at getting back within two years. When it doesn't happen they are in a financial mess. Blackpool and Burnley are two examples of clubs who have taken a different approach and used Premiership money to help secure the long term future of their clubs.

West Brom are the best example for me currently. Boing boing worked a treat for them.

[perthblue02]

Say it was and we needed to sell 80% of our entire playing squad (1st team and youth) to come out of an embargo. how do we fulfill our fixtures?

No problem we just loan all the star players from our Pune Academy, surely that's starting to bear fruit after two years

[FGS5635]

No problem we just loan all the star players from our Pune Academy, surely that's starting to bear fruit after two years

Or we could join forces with Brunie DPMM and share players. You just know keano has discovered some world class talent there by now.

[Stuart]

That may be true Stuart HOWEVER, Bolton have lost 20-30 million a year for the last 5 years - and have made a loss every year in the Prem, in other words they didn't have financial control even with PL money - that is rank bad management.

Fair point when you put it like that.

*nod's over at DE*

[rovers11]

My view has been and still is the FFP in the championship will never fully come to fruition. Here's a recent interview with the new football league chief executive who seems far from certain it will go ahead: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/25500439

The landscape has changed since it was voted in, particularly with the new parachute payments. Also, the club's in the championship have changed since it was voted in so there surely has to be another vote on it. If indeed it is voted on again, no way will it get voted in.

[OJRovers]

FFP does make sense; why pay players so much you end up making massive losses? Wages have to come down.

The problem is the massive gap in revenue between the prem and the championship. Clubs are going to have to insist on relegation clauses in every players' contract (which is a good thing IMO).

What you will get though is a closed shop of 15/16 premier league clubs and about 7 yo yo clubs.

How can a club stay up if they need to spend 50m in the summer just to compete, at the risk of FFP sanctions if they go down?

[adsfortheblues]

It sounds awful to say but that's what is needed, a number of clubs to go bust and the leagues to start collapsing.