Bolton debt

[Tardyrover]

Frightening this .

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/bolton-wanderers-debt-up-1638-6456166

[CapeTownRover]

i feel better now

[beanie]

Frightening this .

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/bolton-wanderers-debt-up-1638-6456166

Good job wee Dougie did not buy Rhodes in the summer then or the figures would be much worse.

[47er]

There's always aomeone worse off than yourself!

[DE.]

I don't follow Gartside's argument that being in the Prem for 11 years and then getting relegated is the reason for their financial problems. That's 11 seasons of very healthy television money, 11 seasons of decent prize money and 11 seasons of Premier League sponsorship money. Whilst the FA have plenty to answer for in relation to English football finances I don't think they or the Prem are to blame for Bolton's horrendous debt level. They've spent beyond their means and adhered to an unsustainable business model, it's not much more complicated than that. If they couldn't afford to spend the money they should have kept it within the club and if that meant relegation a few seasons sooner then so be it - the fans would likely be angry at "lack of investment" but is £150M+ debt a better alternative? Seems to me that Bolton's owner gambled the club's financial health on perpetual Premier League survival, which is obviously not a sound strategy for a club the size of Bolton.

Edited December 31, 2013 by DE.

[AJW]

Wow !!! i know our finances are a mess , but .. Wow ! , if you were a Bolton fan you would be asking how their Debt is so much more than ours , we're similar size clubs , similar fan base , spent about the same time in PL , and if anything our wage bill will probably be higher than theirs.... the only stand out difference i would say is transfer fee's received , i dont remember too many Bolton players moving for £10m + a la Jones Samba RSC Bentle ect..

[FGS5635]

I just cant see a way how you ever pay that off. Its mind blowing

[MCMC1875]

I just cant see a way how you ever pay that off. Its mind blowing

Their bank manager should be shot.

[Stuart]

I don't follow Gartside's argument that being in the Prem for 11 years and then getting relegated is the reason for their financial problems. That's 11 seasons of very healthy television money, 11 seasons of decent prize money and 11 seasons of Premier League sponsorship money. Whilst the FA have plenty to answer for in relation to English football finances I don't think they or the Prem are to blame for Bolton's horrendous debt level. They've spent beyond their means and adhered to an unsustainable business model, it's not much more complicated than that. If they couldn't afford to spend the money they should have kept it within the club and if that meant relegation a few seasons sooner then so be it - the fans would likely be angry at "lack of investment" but is £150M+ debt a better alternative? Seems to me that Bolton's owner gambled the club's financial health on perpetual Premier League survival, which is obviously not a sound strategy for a club the size of Bolton.

The loss of income from relegation is incredible. Has someone hacked your account, DE?

A PL infrastructure isn't sustainable. Players have all the power so it's no so simple as saying, "ok, you were on £25,000 in the Prem but now we've been relegated you are on £2,500". So all the parachute money goes on wages. Sponsors are not as forthcoming. When was the last time you heard of a club, any club making millions for it's shareholders? Ironically probably Bumley.

FFP is crucifying those few clubs who 'punched above their weight' for a reasonable length of time.

[yoda]

Sounds like they have alternative income streams planned though, what have we got, not even a whiff of Indian style greasy spoons, with a big yellow logo, on the horizon

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

But then you take a gander at wanderers ways and most of their fans appear not phased by it all because 'it's money owed to Eddie and not the banks'

[MCMC1875]

The loss of income from relegation is incredible. Has someone hacked your account, DE?

A PL infrastructure isn't sustainable. Players have all the power so it's no so simple as saying, "ok, you were on £25,000 in the Prem but now we've been relegated you are on £2,500". So all the parachute money goes on wages. Sponsors are not as forthcoming. When was the last time you heard of a club, any club making millions for it's shareholders? Ironically probably Bumley.

FFP is crucifying those few clubs who 'punched above their weight' for a reasonable length of time.

Oyston's made plenty at Blackpool.

[FGS5635]

But then you take a gander at wanderers ways and most of their fans appear not phased by it all because 'it's money owed to Eddie and not the banks'

Thats the thing, they cant go into admin as all their debt is owed to 1 man who continually helps them out. So they have to manage the debt or pay it off and neither seem possible at them levels

[CapeTownRover]

i was just going to mention that SG194, and from what i read its money owed to Eddie. either way though, that is alot of wasted money, but not sure how this works in terms of FFP if the debt is not owed to the banks

[DE.]

The loss of income from relegation is incredible. Has someone hacked your account, DE?

A PL infrastructure isn't sustainable. Players have all the power so it's no so simple as saying, "ok, you were on £25,000 in the Prem but now we've been relegated you are on £2,500". So all the parachute money goes on wages. Sponsors are not as forthcoming. When was the last time you heard of a club, any club making millions for it's shareholders? Ironically probably Bumley.

FFP is crucifying those few clubs who 'punched above their weight' for a reasonable length of time.

Don't understand the "hacked into your account" comment, my point was that Bolton have clearly adapted a poor business model which has left them in horrific debt and that was based on staying in the Premiership forever. If you think that was a smart move then OK, but I certainly don't. If the choice is ending up with an ungodly amount of debt or playing in the Championship (considering the club is likely to end up there anyway) I know what the right business decision would be.

As has been mentioned by others in this thread, we did OK before Venky's came in and were nowhere near those levels of debt. We still aren't even with everything Venky's have done in the last 3 years.

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

It's just crazy..football finances are totally out of control.The game is knackered.

[Stuart]

Don't understand the "hacked into your account" comment, my point was that Bolton have clearly adapted a poor business model which has left them in horrific debt and that was based on staying in the Premiership forever. If you think that was a smart move then OK, but I certainly don't. If the choice is ending up with an ungodly amount of debt or playing in the Championship (considering the club is likely to end up there anyway) I know what the right business decision would be.

As has been mentioned by others in this thread, we did OK before Venky's came in and were nowhere near those levels of debt. We still aren't even with everything Venky's have done in the last 3 years.

I don't think it's a smart move, I think it's a necessary evil for clubs like ours and Bolton's. We may not have had massive debt at the time but our wages-to-turnover ratio was unsustainably high without Sky money and a £20m or so sale every year.

Now we haven't enough income from either source but you know this, hence the throwaway comment about someone else posting on your BRFCS account.

I've posted similar to Gartside about Rovers on this mb in the last fortnight.

[longsiders1882]

Makes no difference who the money is owed to. Bolton must be on target for well above FFP losses for this season and next (assuming they don't get promoted) which leaves the owner with a choice of pumping equity in (and incurring a huge fine) or taking a transfer embargo etc.

I did once read that about 10 million a year was being added to the debt in interest payments etc - not sure if that was accurate or true. If it was then I guess well over 100 million of their debt could well simply be interest rather than actual money spent!

[DE.]

I don't think it's a smart move, I think it's a necessary evil for clubs like ours and Bolton's. We may not have had massive debt at the time but our wages-to-turnover ratio was unsustainably high without Sky money and a £20m or so sale every year.

Now we haven't enough income from either source but you know this, hence the throwaway comment about someone else posting on your BRFCS account.

I've posted similar to Gartside about Rovers on this mb in the last fortnight.

There are very few other clubs in the type of debt Bolton are in, as far as I'm aware anyway. I agree that clubs like ours have little choice but to overspend a little to try and compete but Bolton have clearly gone off the deep end financially.

[tomphil]

Won't Davies just convert most of the debt into share capital or whatever. Then they start more or less from scratch again because he'll never get it all back.

[John]

Wow, massive losses/debt, that's why I was asking the other day how we fair comparatively.

Link below shows biggest one year losses in English football

@sportingintel: Bolton join .... errm ... an elite band. http://t.co/ayyK0r8Hek

[Stuart]

Won't Davies just convert most of the debt into share capital or whatever. Then they start more or less from scratch again because he'll never get it all back.

Isn't FFP designed to prevent exactly that?

[DE.]

Wow, massive losses/debt, that's why I was asking the other day how we fair comparatively.

Link below shows biggest one year losses in English football

@sportingintel: Bolton join .... errm ... an elite band. http://t.co/ayyK0r8Hek

That really is shocking. Wtf have they spent so much on? I can't remember them splashing those levels of cash around, although from memory the likes of Elmander were pretty expensive (and awful).

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

I do believe Jack Walker did the same debt/share conversion thing to some 10-15 million worth of cash debt around '97 tomphil.

Edited December 31, 2013 by SIMON GARNERS 194

[CapeTownRover]

http://www.the-wanderer.co.uk/boards/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=25217