Bolton debt

[CapeTownRover]

Hmm would be interesting to get a break down of that Bolton debt amount. if that 160 mill is on transfers, salaries etc, then that is unbelievable. what that doesnt tell you, is that Bolton would still have other expenses to take care of, so that 160 odd million could in fact be alot more

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

Come out,come out wherever you are Theno!!......I can feel a 'Lancashire Utd' rant coming.

Zulu..just dont ask!!

[rovers11]

FFP has worked very well in the lower Leagues and the issues you raise also applied to them. Last season Yeovil were promoted with very small gates whilst the likes of Sheffield United, with huge gates by comparison missed out on promotion. Since the abolition of the maximum and until Jack came along, the Rovers struggled to compete with the big city clubs. It is a fact of life. The fact is that the Rovers, even when we won the League, couldn't fill the ground week in and week out. Suppose Venky's build up the debt over the next two years and we don't get promoted. They decide to pull out and leave the Rovers with a debt they can't repay. The future of the club is then, as it may well be already, under threat.

FFP is working in the lower Leagues and will work in the Championship as club's will have to live within their means. You will never get an even playing field. Some clubs will always be disadvantaged but FFP should ensure that clubs are not driven to the wall by poor financial management.

There will always be surprise packages and Yeovil are an example of that. It can't be denied that FFP strengthens the big clubs and weakens the smaller clubs and that doesn't seem right and certainly doesn't constitute a level playing field. Small town clubs like Rovers will struggle to compete.

That's exactly my point, Rovers couldn't even fill their ground even when they were a title winning team yet we still outspent and outperformed the big clubs. That couldn't happen with FFP. Football will become predictable and boring. I agree that you'll never get an even playing field but small town clubs won't be able to compete with big city clubs on a consistent basis. Using your example, Yeovil got promoted last season but they will get relegated soon, Sheff Utd will get promoted. Yeovil sink whereas Sheff Utd will grow under FFP.

Again, your last point comes down to having responsible owners in football clubs and not FFP issues. People like Jack Walker were a breath of fresh air, people like Tan and Venkys are a disgrace.

[Stuart]

Again, your last point comes down to having responsible owners in football clubs and not FFP issues. People like Jack Walker were a breath of fresh air, people like Tan and Venkys are a disgrace.

And yet FFP will welcome Venkys and Tan on board and put the shutters up to the Jack Walkers. That's if there ever are any more. It's entirely possible that we simply had the golden ticket for a while there. The Whelans and Davies are the same mould but came in after the horse had bolted. Jack's fortune was enough but only for a time.

Wonder how BangkokRover's Qataris are doing with falling in love with Rovers? Has that NDA not expired yet and you can spill the...

(That's a photo of my beans that I've just taken now, btw, not from bing images, honest!. )

[Plastic Head]

Before this season, Bolton paid 5.5 million on interest for there debt last year, having had there debt for a while i wonder how much interest has been accumulated and representative to the 160 million figure?

Davies' company received an annual "loan arrangement fee" and a very decent interest rate on the loans to Burnden Leisure.

And to say he doesn't need his money back! Well he has a net worth of £40M so would you want £150M back? He makes kettles FFS.

Very grim times ahead at Bolton and at Rovers I think.

[Clitherover]

And yet FFP will welcome Venkys and Tan on board and put the shutters up to the Jack Walkers. That's if there ever are any more. It's entirely possible that we simply had the golden ticket for a while there. The Whelans and Davies are the same mould but came in after the horse had bolted. Jack's fortune was enough but only for a time.

Wonder how BangkokRover's Qataris are doing with falling in love with Rovers? Has that NDA not expired yet and you can spill the...

(That's a photo of my beans that I've just taken now, btw, not from bing images, honest!. )

Haha, the old 'airport lounge shot', must go down in BRFCS folklore, brilliant!

[Parsonblue]

There will always be surprise packages and Yeovil are an example of that. It can't be denied that FFP strengthens the big clubs and weakens the smaller clubs and that doesn't seem right and certainly doesn't constitute a level playing field. Small town clubs like Rovers will struggle to compete.

That's exactly my point, Rovers couldn't even fill their ground even when they were a title winning team yet we still outspent and outperformed the big clubs. That couldn't happen with FFP. Football will become predictable and boring. I agree that you'll never get an even playing field but small town clubs won't be able to compete with big city clubs on a consistent basis. Using your example, Yeovil got promoted last season but they will get relegated soon, Sheff Utd will get promoted. Yeovil sink whereas Sheff Utd will grow under FFP.

Again, your last point comes down to having responsible owners in football clubs and not FFP issues. People like Jack Walker were a breath of fresh air, people like Tan and Venkys are a disgrace.

The problem with waiting for owners with money is that they don't come along all that often. Laurence Cotton in the years before the First World War and then Jack. In between those years we were the poor relations. Since the lifting of the maximum wage small town clubs have struggled to compete with the big city clubs - it's nothing new. Ipswich won the title in 1961-62 and then we did in 1994-95 and in between it was dominated by City clubs. Since 1995 it has continued to be dominated by the clubs from Manchester and London. The history of football is about those with money and those without. We have chosen to support a club that is not one of the fashionable clubs that will attract sponsorship, large crowds or wealthy foreign ownership. FFP is about preventing clubs going out of existence and surely that has to be a good thing for those small communities for whom the football club is important. FFP may well have prevented Portsmouth falling through the Leagues and Coventry might well be playing in their own city rather than in Northampton.

[Blue Cabbage]

The problem with waiting for owners with money is that they don't come along all that often. Laurence Cotton in the years before the First World War and then Jack. In between those years we were the poor relations. Since the lifting of the maximum wage small town clubs have struggled to compete with the big city clubs - it's nothing new. Ipswich won the title in 1961-62 and then we did in 1994-95 and in between it was dominated by City clubs. Since 1995 it has continued to be dominated by the clubs from Manchester and London. The history of football is about those with money and those without. We have chosen to support a club that is not one of the fashionable clubs that will attract sponsorship, large crowds or wealthy foreign ownership. FFP is about preventing clubs going out of existence and surely that has to be a good thing for those small communities for whom the football club is important. FFP may well have prevented Portsmouth falling through the Leagues and Coventry might well be playing in their own city rather than in Northampton.

Sickeningly true PB, bob on.

[bob fleming]

Wanderers and Rovers - victims of our own success in the *use Frank Sidebottom voice* "fantastic* Premier League where everyone's a winner. Unless of course your quite Northern, have small crowds (in comparison) to other Big City clubs, and are stitched up by a bunch of scotch bullshiters with Sky and the FA's Agents behind them. FFP - that'll lock em out. Give that man a CBE.

Then again we won the League. Which was nice. Then again, that was an age ago. Maybe theno was right. Where's the new ground going to be by the way? Victory Park?

Nah. It just wouldn't work. Too much pride. We'll just have to watch it all implode instead and watch the magic of the Premier League bore us shtiless every season instead. Ooh Arsenal this year? Or is it City? Maybe Man U? I'll just check my giveashitometer again, see how Southampton and Villa feel. They'll never win feck all either. But the money the players get... Just to keep up with the Phil Jones'.

[patrickvalery]

I wouldnt write Southampton off just yet Bob. There are some mind boggling things going on there at the moment. They won't do it overnight by any means, and possibly will fall short. But their aim is champions league football and they are gearing up for just that. I read an incredible piece in the Telegraph (I think) which highlighted some of there work. They are boxing very clever. Don't expect to see their conveyor belt of young talent ending any time soon. I drive past their training complex every day and its extremely impressive and seemingly always getting bigger. I appreciate they are flavour of the month but its for good reason. There some people there with big ideas. Strangely their undoing could be something which us rovers fans can relate to. The financial backing is at the mercy of the family of Markus Liebher who passed away a couple if years ago. I believe his daughter now holds the purse strings. Providing she shares her fathers dream I can see Southampton getting very close to cracking the top four in the next 5 years.

Edit - i should add that i appreciate this has nothing to do with the point you were making. It just sort of popped into my simple brain.

Anyway, Bolton. Um, whats to say. Its not too pretty.

And happy new year one and all.

Edited January 1, 2014 by patrickvalery

[lraC]

FFP has worked very well in the lower Leagues and the issues you raise also applied to them. Last season Yeovil were promoted with very small gates whilst the likes of Sheffield United, with huge gates by comparison missed out on promotion. Since the abolition of the maximum and until Jack came along, the Rovers struggled to compete with the big city clubs. It is a fact of life. The fact is that the Rovers, even when we won the League, couldn't fill the ground week in and week out. Suppose Venky's build up the debt over the next two years and we don't get promoted. They decide to pull out and leave the Rovers with a debt they can't repay. The future of the club is then, as it may well be already, under threat.

FFP is working in the lower Leagues and will work in the Championship as club's will have to live within their means. You will never get an even playing field. Some clubs will always be disadvantaged but FFP should ensure that clubs are not driven to the wall by poor financial management.

It isn't as simple as the size of the fan base or what comes through the gates, as it happens. When you just isolate one very small element of Rovers dealings over the last few years with Phil Jones being an example. When you unearth a Gem like him, it can keep a small club very competitive for a long time, if the club strike the right deal. The transfer fee was huge and given that he was' home grown' the profit on this was substantial. It's a real sham that we seemed to waste it.

Granted these sorts of transfers are the exception rather than the norm, but one big deal ever now and then, can eliminate the difference between a club with say 15,000 week in week out and a club with 25,000. This may mean clubs with smaller supporter bases, may invest in youth development a bit more and also be a bit more imaginative with sell on clauses and the like.

[thenodrog]

I just cant see a way how you ever pay that off. Its mind blowing

The debt is unmanageable and unrecoverable. Same as ours. The solution is obvious to me, unpalatable to some but inevitable. Bankruptcy---winding up----- NW United.

[tomphil]

The debt is unmanageable and unrecoverable. Same as ours. The solution is obvious to me, unpalatable to some but inevitable. Bankruptcy---winding up----- NW United.

Only viable option in the fantasy world of all local clubs winding up would be Chorley Utd. Start from scratch and expand something neutral that already exists. Fans of most local clubs already stand side by side plenty of times to cheer on Chorley so to pour millions into something like that and expand it, rocket up the leagues it may work.

[Shabani]

oops wrong thread..

Edited January 2, 2014 by Shabani

[Steve Moss]

The debt is unmanageable and unrecoverable. Same as ours. The solution is obvious to me, unpalatable to some but inevitable. Bankruptcy---winding up----- NW United.

Isn't converting the debt to equity also an option, assuming the owners were inclined?

[Zulu]

Isn't converting the debt to equity also an option, assuming the owners were inclined?

I reckon that's what Eddie Davies will choose to do at Bolton - although I have no evidence whatsoever to back that up. I wish I had so much money that £151 million didn't matter!

I can't see it being on the Venky's list of options though.

[thenodrog]

I wager he'd struggle to recover 20% of that debt.

But in his position it's family or a football club that is in the hands of people that have spewed £160m already? Not really a tough choice is it? Somebody has to put the plug in the bottom of the bath and turn off the taps.

Edited January 3, 2014 by thenodrog

[chris_h]

I reckon that's what Eddie Davies will choose to do at Bolton - although I have no evidence whatsoever to back that up. I wish I had so much money that £151 million didn't matter!

I can't see it being on the Venky's list of options though.

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

'' I wish I had so much money that £151 million didn't matter.''

Astonishing isn't it..how much money are these people sitting on!!

Edited January 3, 2014 by SIMON GARNERS 194

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

'' I wish I had so much money that £151 million didn't matter.''

Astonishing isn't it..how much money are these people sitting on!!

The days of Millionaires being able to run Premier League and recently relegated Premier League clubs successfully are over. You need to be a Billionaire now. The game has moved on so much. The only people who've benefitted from this are the players and agents. Sooner or later it will all collapse. Edited January 3, 2014 by Tyrone Shoelaces

[windymiller7]

As Peter Jones said when asked "What's the fastest way to become a millionaire?"

"Buy a football club when you're a billionaire"

So true!

[patrickvalery]

I heard on the radio this morning that NGog is on 35k pw, Wheater is on 25k, Eagles on 30k and Tyrone Mears is on 20k and hasnt played since we dicked them 4-1. There was something about Beckford too. I only half heard it because I was busy, but im sure they mentioned he was on 40k at Leicester and took a pay cut to go to Bolton. But you'd have to guess it wouldn't be a huge drop or he'd have sat tight. Some of those figures are very very scary.

[FGS5635]

I heard on the radio this morning that NGog is on 35k pw, Wheater is on 25k, Eagles on 30k and Tyrone Mears is on 20k and hasnt played since we dicked them 4-1. There was something about Beckford too. I only half heard it because I was busy, but im sure they mentioned he was on 40k at Leicester and took a pay cut to go to Bolton. But you'd have to guess it wouldn't be a huge drop or he'd have sat tight. Some of those figures are very very scary.

Scary stuff. Infuriating thing is Gartside is considered a respected good guy and the reality is he is arguably dafter than venkys. At least they had no experience in football and can play the retard card...whats his excuse?

[EgyptianPete]

Scary stuff. Infuriating thing is Gartside is considered a respected good guy and the reality is he is arguably dafter than venkys. At least they had no experience in football and can play the retard card...whats his excuse?

Brilliant

[RevidgeBlue]

The figure that caught my eye above was Beckford allegedly on 40k p.w. at Leicester.

Who could ever think that Beckford even on his very best day was worth anything remotely approaching 40k p.w?

(Milan Mandaric probably but it was a rhetorical question. You deserve everything coming to you paying those sort of wages out)