Bolton debt

[Andy]

It's just crazy..football finances are totally out of control.The game is knackered.

Hardly.

Nothing to do with 'the game', it's about one club's financial mismanagement.

[LDRover]

Any club that spends 12 million on a plodder like Elmander deserves all that is coming to them.

[tomphil]

I do believe Jack Walker did the same debt/share conversion thing to some 10-15 million worth of cash debt around '97 tomphil.

He did yes and i seem to think the trust did something similar a few years later.

Isn't FFP designed to prevent exactly that?

Leicester City owners did it recently to the tune of about 80 mill i think so i suppose if it's done before the FFP comes in then that's ok ?

[dave birch]

Why is everyone concerned about other football teams problems?

Does it change our own teams situation?

OK, it's a problem, but let's fight our own battles, win them, and then bother obout other teams.

[rovers11]

Why is everyone concerned about other football teams problems?

Does it change our own teams situation?

OK, it's a problem, but let's fight our own battles, win them, and then bother obout other teams.

Does it change our own team's situation. Yes, massively!

If a significant number of other teams in the championship are in the same boat as us, which quite clearly they are, then FFP will not come to fruition. FFP is supposed to help clubs so if it does the opposite then it won't come in. That will be good news for Rovers and quite a lot of other teams who have spent too much.

[John]

Why is everyone concerned about other football teams problems?

Does it change our own teams situation?

OK, it's a problem, but let's fight our own battles, win them, and then bother obout other teams.

Local rival and their situation is of course relevant to us as we have similar financial problems - strange post...

[tomphil]

Why is everyone concerned about other football teams problems?

Does it change our own teams situation?

OK, it's a problem, but let's fight our own battles, win them, and then bother obout other teams.

I'm not concerned about Bolton just interested to see how they handle the situation. One quite similar to ours in case you ain't noticed

[dave birch]

Goodness, some of you guys seemed to have missed the point.

Yes we have a problem, yes they have a problem, but, let's solve our own, before we worry about others.

The gist is, keep the focus on the Rovers rather than other teams. They've got enough supporters to do their worrying.

Tomphil, take the point of your first sentence, and I have noticed.

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

Hardly.

Nothing to do with 'the game', it's about one club's financial mismanagement.

Make that 'most' clubs financial mismanagement.

[Doug]

Living in Bolton and taking the @#/? they regularly give me, I can only think of one response .......

[ABBEY]

Couldn't give a crap about any other clubs or their fans because as it's been proven no one gave a fook about us .

[Brfcrule1]

I don't follow Gartside's argument that being in the Prem for 11 years and then getting relegated is the reason for their financial problems. That's 11 seasons of very healthy television money, 11 seasons of decent prize money and 11 seasons of Premier League sponsorship money. Whilst the FA have plenty to answer for in relation to English football finances I don't think they or the Prem are to blame for Bolton's horrendous debt level. They've spent beyond their means and adhered to an unsustainable business model, it's not much more complicated than that. If they couldn't afford to spend the money they should have kept it within the club and if that meant relegation a few seasons sooner then so be it - the fans would likely be angry at "lack of investment" but is £150M+ debt a better alternative? Seems to me that Bolton's owner gambled the club's financial health on perpetual Premier League survival, which is obviously not a sound strategy for a club the size of Bolton.

DE and that is the point gambling on staying in the PL forever was a totally unsustainable business model.

Their bank manager should be shot.

Your not wrong I thought our debt was bad but to let it get to 163.8M is reckless in the extreme.

There are very few other clubs in the type of debt Bolton are in, as far as I'm aware anyway. I agree that clubs like ours have little choice but to overspend a little to try and compete but Bolton have clearly gone off the deep end financially.

DE that is not entirely true I would hate to even speculate what QPR's balance sheet would look like.

Isn't FFP designed to prevent exactly that?

Stu you are absolutely right but the problem is how they will implement this.

That really is shocking. Wtf have they spent so much on? I can't remember them splashing those levels of cash around, although from memory the likes of Elmander were pretty expensive (and awful).

DE think about it David NGog, Martin Petrov former Man City etc...

Why is everyone concerned about other football teams problems?

Does it change our own teams situation?

OK, it's a problem, but let's fight our own battles, win them, and then bother obout other teams.

Dave it could well do we are onviously in a mess finance wise and so are many championship clubs and a lot of the other teams unless promoted will be hit with a transfer embargo and when they challenge FFP e.g. Boro, QPR, Forest etc... the League will probably realise although it would be a good thing it would be impossible to implement and throw it out or extend the deadline to give clubs a reasonable transition to comply and it might wake Shelfie up to the idea of challenging the rules.

[tomphil]

Living in Bolton and taking the keans they regularly give me, I can only think of one response .......

I also know plenty of em and in the recent past it's always been we're ok Uncle Eddies got it covered, we're gonna buy Rhodes (wonder were they got that idea!) we're goin to do this and that but basically Rovers are fooked. I've always responded that it can't go on for ever and they'll be in the same boat one day. This may bring it home to them a bit

[Zulu]

Bolton Wanderers have the highest wage bill outside the Premier League. Being cut dramatically as we speak.

The owner, Eddie Davies, is owed £151 million of that debt - which is interest free allegedly. So it's not as bad as it would first appear. Not good though! A lot of clubs in England in similar circumstances. For instance, Blackburn Rovers are £60 million in debt and reportedly losing £2 million a month! Anyone confirm that?

Forget the local rivalries. The game is knackered.

Incidentally, £151 million will buy you a lot of electric kettle elements!

[DE.]

DE and that is the point gambling on staying in the PL forever was a totally unsustainable business model.

DE that is not entirely true I would hate to even speculate what QPR's balance sheet would look like.

DE think about it David NGog, Martin Petrov former Man City etc...

Point 1: This plan would have been approved by the Bolton board though, no? Us and Wigan are nowhere near Bolton's level of debt after all - though we're edging closer to it thanks to the loons.

Point 2: I'd be surprised if there were many teams in the Championship with a bigger debt than Bolton. QPR may come close but other than that?

Point 3: From recollection those guys weren't hugely expensive so their wages and signing on fees must have been absolutely ridiculous.

[tomphil]

Bolton Wanderers have the highest wage bill outside the Premier League. Being cut dramatically as we speak.

The owner, Eddie Davies, is owed £151 million of that debt - which is interest free allegedly. So it's not as bad as it would first appear. Not good though! A lot of clubs in England in similar circumstances. For instance, Blackburn Rovers are £60 million in debt and reportedly losing £2 million a month! Anyone confirm that?

Forget the local rivalries. The game is knackered.

Incidentally, £151 million will buy you a lot of electric kettle elements!

Higher wage bill than Rovers ? Hell where is it all going ?

[Parsonblue]

Does it change our own team's situation. Yes, massively!

If a significant number of other teams in the championship are in the same boat as us, which quite clearly they are, then FFP will not come to fruition. FFP is supposed to help clubs so if it does the opposite then it won't come in. That will be good news for Rovers and quite a lot of other teams who have spent too much.

Taking the brake off clubs spending beyond their means is not good news. FFP will force clubs to live within their means and not gamble their future on trying to get into the Premiership. Venky's are the perfect example of why FFP will be a good thing in the long run.

[Zulu]

Higher wage bill than Rovers ? Hell where is it all going ?

It's being @#/? up the wall from what I can see. The legacy of Coyle - an expensive error if ever I saw one.

[DE.]

It's being keaned up the wall from what I can see. The legacy of Coyle - an expensive error if ever I saw one.

Another SEM success story.

[rovers11]

Taking the brake off clubs spending beyond their means is not good news. FFP will force clubs to live within their means and not gamble their future on trying to get into the Premiership. Venky's are the perfect example of why FFP will be a good thing in the long run.

We need to avoid another pompey situation for sure but surely that comes with tightening up the fit and proper test and not the FFP. Rovers wouldn't have won the league without outside investment. Clubs like Fulham and Wigan would never have got to the premier league without rich owners.

Clubs with massive parachute payments will have a huge advantageous over every other club. Club with big fan bases will also have a huge advantage. Why shouldn't a wealthy owner be allowed to pump their own money into a club if they want to live the dream. How are Rovers going to compete with the likes of Brighton and Leeds in the future with them getting around 25k supporters each home game and us getting around 15k with very cheap tickets. Also, how are we going to compete with clubs relegated from the premier league with them having 50m or whatever it is in parachute payments. FFP simply won't work and can't be allowed to come in as it will create a big divide and the dream of many smaller football clubs will die.

[tomphil]

It's being keaned up the wall from what I can see. The legacy of Coyle - an expensive error if ever I saw one.

Steve Kean and Owen Coyle. What a pair of #####. No suprise at the connection of the 2 and the matching mess they both left behind. Sickening.

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

Zulu,around some 60 Million in debt according to official club figures and losing around 2 Million a MONTH is most peoples estimate.

Just have a bad feeling this is only the calm before the storm for both clubs.

[Zulu]

Zulu,around some 60 Million in debt according to official club figures and losing around 2 Million a MONTH is most peoples estimate.

Just have a bad feeling this is only the calm before the storm for both clubs.

I agree with you. Not just Bolton Wanderers and Blackburn Rovers either.

[Dunnfc]

Before this season, Bolton paid 5.5 million on interest for there debt last year, having had there debt for a while i wonder how much interest has been accumulated and representative to the 160 million figure?

Edited December 31, 2013 by Dunnfc

[Parsonblue]

We need to avoid another pompey situation for sure but surely that comes with tightening up the fit and proper test and not the FFP. Rovers wouldn't have won the league without outside investment. Clubs like Fulham and Wigan would never have got to the premier league without rich owners.

Clubs with massive parachute payments will have a huge advantageous over every other club. Club with big fan bases will also have a huge advantage. Why shouldn't a wealthy owner be allowed to pump their own money into a club if they want to live the dream. How are Rovers going to compete with the likes of Brighton and Leeds in the future with them getting around 25k supporters each home game and us getting around 15k with very cheap tickets. Also, how are we going to compete with clubs relegated from the premier league with them having 50m or whatever it is in parachute payments. FFP simply won't work and can't be allowed to come in as it will create a big divide and the dream of many smaller football clubs will die.

FFP has worked very well in the lower Leagues and the issues you raise also applied to them. Last season Yeovil were promoted with very small gates whilst the likes of Sheffield United, with huge gates by comparison missed out on promotion. Since the abolition of the maximum and until Jack came along, the Rovers struggled to compete with the big city clubs. It is a fact of life. The fact is that the Rovers, even when we won the League, couldn't fill the ground week in and week out. Suppose Venky's build up the debt over the next two years and we don't get promoted. They decide to pull out and leave the Rovers with a debt they can't repay. The future of the club is then, as it may well be already, under threat.

FFP is working in the lower Leagues and will work in the Championship as club's will have to live within their means. You will never get an even playing field. Some clubs will always be disadvantaged but FFP should ensure that clubs are not driven to the wall by poor financial management.