[Archived] Benefit tv

[Al]

Really? Well it's certainly not a reward for achievement is it?

With a flat tax rate the incentive is there for all to work hard and strive for success.

Maybe you did not quite understand my post Gordon. I believe that the highest rate of tax is too high and is punitive to the high earners. At the very top it attracts very little and in my opinion is a sop to appease the low earners. I would not be opposed to an upper limit above which no tax is charged. However I do believe that a flat rate is unnecessarily punitive to the lower earners and as such is not acceptable to most voters.

[thenodrog]

Really? Well it's certainly not a reward for achievement is it?

With a flat tax rate the incentive is there for all to work hard and strive for success.

Maybe you did not quite understand my post Gordon. I believe that the highest rate of tax is too high and is punitive to the high earners. At the very top it attracts very little and in my opinion is a sop to appease the low earners. I would not be opposed to an upper limit above which no tax is charged. However I do believe that a flat rate is unnecessarily punitive to the lower earners and as such is not acceptable to most voters.

The answer is in the word 'incentive' Al.

[dave birch]

I always thought that the graduated scale of taxation was a pretty fair method.

I always thought that the allowance for business expenses (in that they were spent in creating a profit) were fair.

So where is the problem?

Work hard, earn more. Works for both employees and for Business, the only major difference is, that in starting a business (even one that is now large) someone somewhere put their arse on the line.

[thenodrog]

I always thought that the graduated scale of taxation was a pretty fair method.

I always thought that the allowance for business expenses (in that they were spent in creating a profit) were fair.

So where is the problem?

Work hard, earn more. Works for both employees and for Business, the only major difference is, that in starting a business (even one that is now large) someone somewhere put their arse on the line.

Why? Just to come out with a statement like that is nonsensical. With a Flat rate the higher earners pay more tax on a pro rata basis so why set up even higher rates in order to bleed them? It's hardly a good socialist principle to treat one section of society differently than another is it?

Whichever part of ewood we stand in we all pay the same, whichever car we choose to run we all pay the same duty on fuel, whenever we make a purchase we all pay the same VAT, we pay the same duty on alcohol whether we drink in a Chelsea Wine bar or a Northern Working mans club.

As for 'putting ones arse on the line'. Correct. It's like cave dwellers rewarding their best hunter gatherers for a fine days foraging with a meal of bread and water whilst the lazy arses share out the meat and fruit. I do however accept that this principle of greed does occur in the animal kingdom. Male Lions let the she lions do all the hunting before having the first choice by bullyboy methods, drones do Kean all in a colony of bees, magpies are nest thieves and of course cuckoos are well represented in human society aren't they?

btw Do you have any Australian examples dave? Dingo's perhaps? They are remarkeable scavengers I understand, but they'd have top go some to top our lower orders.

[Tyrone Shoelaces]

Do you think the male Lions vote Tory ?

[ABBEY]

19 Romanians in a terraced house this week

[jim mk2]

List of countries in the world with the flat tax. Off you go Gordon

1. Bosnia-Herzegovina
2. Bulgaria
3. Albania
4. Czech Republic
5. Estonia
6. Georgia
7. Guernsey
8. Hungary
9. Kazakhstan
10. Iraq
11. Jersey
12. Kyrgyzstan
13. Latvia
14. Lithuania
15. Macedonia
16. Mongolia
17. Montenegro
18. Mauritius
19. Romania
20. Russia
21. Serbia
22. Slovakia
23. Ukraine

[yoda]

List of countries in the world with the flat tax. Off you go Gordon

1. Bosnia-Herzegovina
2. Bulgaria
3. Albania
4. Czech Republic
5. Estonia
6. Georgia
7. Guernsey
8. Hungary
9. Kazakhstan
10. Iraq
11. Jersey
12. Kyrgyzstan
13. Latvia
14. Lithuania
15. Macedonia
16. Mongolia
17. Montenegro
18. Mauritius
19. Romania
20. Russia
21. Serbia
22. Slovakia
23. Ukraine

Not exactly bastions of the free market are they

[jim mk2]

Exactly. Democracies have progressive taxes. As a Thatcherite, flat tax, flat earth dinosaur thenodrog really should move abroad. Mongolia would suit him perfectly.

[yoda]

Exactly. Democracies have progressive taxes. As a Thatcherite, flat tax, flat earth dinosaur thenodrog really should move abroad. Mongolia would suit him perfectly.

Have you been on the sauce

[adopted scouser]

Have you been on the sauce

He always does this, just boring, reverts to type.

[yoda]

He always does this, just boring, reverts to type.

being an ex journo he would do

[thenodrog]

Exactly. Democracies have progressive taxes. As a Thatcherite, flat tax, flat earth dinosaur thenodrog really should move abroad. Mongolia would suit him perfectly.

Isn't socialism about equality or does your version allow cherry picking the bits that suit.

Needless to say many high earners who can operate their business from distance already have done. An overly punitive tax system just kills the goose that laid the Golden Egg. No living organism can thrive successfully when it is infested with parasites.

[jim mk2]

Yeah, you're right. Lots of multinationals run from the likes of Mongolia and Kazahkstan.

When are you leaving by the way ? Alot of those places have the benefits of capital punishment too.

[ultrablue]

Isn't socialism about equality or does your version allow cherry picking the bits that suit.

Needless to say many high earners who can operate their business from distance already have done. An overly punitive tax system just kills the goose that laid the Golden Egg. No living organism can thrive successfully when it is infested with parasites.

You've got your knickers in a twist here thenodrog. There are some simple truths you are missing.

a. A progressive rate of tax does not neccessarily mean punitively high taxes for the top earners. It just means their taxes are higher than those who earn less. Income tax rates can be subjectively low or high of course, but this has nothing to do with progressive or flat tax systems, just the thresholds and rate.

b. Progressive tax rates actually help the top earners. By taxing the income of the working class at a lower rate, with the top earners picking up the slack, you put disposable income in lower earners' pockets. They then spend and grow the economy, giving the top earners more custom and further opportunities to grow their wealth.

Flat tax rates on the otherhand are a sign of insecurity, stagnation and a lack of economic growth. Capitalism only works if there is a vibrant middle class with money to spend.

Progressive tax rates have been used by governments all over the world to grow the middle class. Why should they give up such a potent tool just for the sake of 'fairness'. As a blu blooded conservative you should know there is no such thing. It's you that soumds like the socialist.

[yoda]

You've got your knickers in a twist here thenodrog. There are some simple truths you are missing.

a. A progressive rate of tax does not neccessarily mean punitively high taxes for the top earners. It just means their taxes are higher than those who earn less. Income tax rates can be subjectively low or high of course, but this has nothing to do with progressive or flat tax systems, just the thresholds and rate.

b. Progressive tax rates actually help the top earners. By taxing the income of the working class at a lower rate, with the top earners picking up the slack, you put disposable income in lower earners' pockets. They then spend and grow the economy, giving the top earners more custom and further opportunities to grow their wealth.

Flat tax rates on the otherhand are a sign of insecurity, stagnation and a lack of economic growth. Capitalism only works if there is a vibrant middle class with money to spend.

Progressive tax rates have been used by governments all over the world to grow the middle class. Why should they give up such a potent tool just for the sake of 'fairness'. As a blu blooded conservative you should know there is no such thing. It's you that soumds like the socialist.

The only truth is the market will prevail,

The Chinese gov' is trying to come to terms with it, communist/socialist control over mass capitalism,

interesting mix and times coming up, I predict the end of communism/socialism in China in our life time.

[thenodrog]

Progressive tax rates have been used by governments all over the world to grow the middle class. Why should they give up such a potent tool just for the sake of 'fairness'. As a blu blooded conservative you should know there is no such thing. It's you that soumds like the socialist.

Exactly my inference. Jim and Tyrone are behaving like tyrants and I am behaving like a socialist. Well spotted ultrablue.

[dave birch]

Work for the dole.

Either get a job, any job, but if you can't, you go and spend X hours working on civic projects, rather than sitting at home grogging on.

Don't do the hours, see a reduction in your dole.

[neekoy]

Progressive taxes are fine if those who are supposed to be paying the most tax do so which in most cases they actually avoid, forcing the working middle class to pick up the tab forcing them into lower living standards therefore increasing the gap between the haves and the have nots further.

I would like to remove income taxes completely, increase company tax for super profits, increase VAT/GST to around 40% and remove individual and company tax returns.

I would also limit shareholder returns and cap executive pay based on key metrics outside of company profitability.

[Paul]

 

I would like to remove income taxes completely, increase company tax for super profits, increase VAT/GST to around 40% and remove individual and company tax returns.

The problem with high or increased sales tax is it will have the greatest impact on the low paid. This is certainly true when both income and sakes tax are used to collect taxes. I'm not sure if it would be in the absence of income tax.

[dave birch]

Neekoy, let me know how high income earners avoid tax. I'm not talking about the Packers etc, but a lot of "ordinary Joes" who are now wealthy.

Yep, they can do it through companies and trusts, but they bring their problems when it comes to getting hands on cash and the inevitable family split.

(the longest family split went for a couple of hundred years and was only resolved when the money ran out).

[thenodrog]

Work for the dole.

Either get a job, any job, but if you can't, you go and spend X hours working on civic projects, rather than sitting at home grogging on.

Don't do the hours, see a reduction in your dole.

Quite right dave. Thats my solution. It'd be self funding too cos one could pay for the other. Blackburn is a dirty scruffy shithole these days with litter everywhere, overgrown cemetaries, dilapidated buildings, crumbling walls etc...... and a massive population of bone idle scroungers.

[ABBEY]

Quite right dave. Thats my solution. It'd be self funding too cos one could pay for the other. Blackburn is a dirty scruffy shithole these days with litter everywhere, overgrown cemetaries, dilapidated buildings, crumbling walls etc...... and a massive population of bone idle scroungers.

and Tinny

[Stuart]

Quite right dave. Thats my solution. It'd be self funding too cos one could pay for the other. Blackburn is a dirty scruffy shithole these days with litter everywhere, overgrown cemetaries, dilapidated buildings, crumbling walls etc...... and a massive population of bone idle scroungers.

I'm assuming that some solicitor on Richmond Terrace would be on the blower to Brussels and cry foul over the individuals' 'dignity' as part of a 'human rights argument'.

Cleaning up the town would be a brilliant idea. Might increase pride in the place too and keep it smarter, thus increasing the attractiveness of the area, and increase the chances of outside investment, creating - you've guessed it - jobs!

If you don't like it, go to night school and improve your prospects. Like everyone else has to.

[thenodrog]

Times aren't as good for Solicitors on Richmond Terrace these days. They've helped massively to cook their own goose. They are all going to have to tighten their belts and not before time.