[Archived] Rovers Trust/Action Group/Ians

[Parsonblue]

Thanks for the reply 47er.  You make a number of interesting points, many of which I wouldn't disagree with.  I suspect next season will be the point when we will know if Venkys are going to stay, go or put the club into administration - or even liquidation.  Worrying times for all of us who have Blackburn Rovers at heart irrespective of whether we attend or boycott.   

[JBiz]

Just now, Daniel Louis Grabko (Dan) said:

Why does everyone seem to forget that a deal for majority ownership that included a real and substantial capital investment was put together by a locally based consortium led by Battersby's investment firm that Rovers Trust did in fact help flesh out and facilitate, but that the Venkys didn't even have the decency to decline politely but instead most insultingly publicly denied the very existence of?

That was this very season. The, "who would be interested in buying us?" dismissive rhetoric isn't valid. There are people that have shown interest in just that only a short few months ago.

Administration most likely wouldn't decrease the amount of capital needed by such a group to come in, but it would allow more of that capital to go to righting and rebuilding the club rather than to the blood sucking leeches that current own 99.99% of the shares of our club!!

In what reality do the Rao give up and walk away? I can only see them selling on their own terms, how do we tie their hands? 

The situation could go one of many ways, I don't think many people are awake to the ownership being followed by something even worse or more untoward, are there ways as fans to ensure this doesn't happen?

I ask because you've been involved, no worries if you're none the wiser because this seems the big issue. When others ask me if fans should keep going, I always say yes because from my(and a few others) angle, that will bear an impact in deciding what happens to us next.

Im aware that this impact is probably negligible but the other side of the coin seems far more dangerous. The owners are so arrogant and isolated, who would be suprised if they saw a completely empty ground and just decided to wind us up for lack of interest?

[perthblue02]

25 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

 

I'm going log off for a few days before I say something that I will regret and possibly get ban from. Very responsible from me in all fairness. 

Can you leave the ball so the rest of us can still play with it?

[Ozz]

You can tell we`re in the sh1t when there`s a lot in interest in the Trust  again.

[Stuart]

@47er @Daniel Louis Grabko (Dan)

Two excellent posts.

Have to hope that the consortium would be prepared to speak to the administrator about taking us over.

To be honest, unless we are taken over by a rich sheikh or Chinese oligarch (and I can't fathom why they would) then we will surely become a NewCo.

Next question, assuming somebody comes in, which division would we start in? I think we can safely say, despite what happened with Rangers, that the EFL would stick two fingers up at us, so L2 is out. Would the Conference or Conference North take us? There's an argument in our favour if we have 10k crowds. If the hardcore continue to stick with the club "through thick and thin" (rather than defect to a league side) stick around, and the NAPM boycotters return, then it may be possible. If, however, we follow the Hereford FC route then we would end up in the North West Counties League (the 9th tier), and a MINIMUM 5 years back to the football league.

But right now, I'd take even that 'adventure' if it meant it was the ONLY way to get rid of Venkys. But I suspect I am in a very small minority (in the hundreds). I'm not sure Seneca would see a return on that so anything below Conference would be a complete starter upper and probably years of ignominy. Would the football authorities be okay with that? Probably.

Would you be there @Parsonblue?

[Mercer]

Venky's had a partial way out with the Seneca proposal which seemed a fair and reasonable way forward, capping their debt at its then level, freeing them from future losses and, if we progressed upwards, would see value added to their remaining sharehding.

I have little doubt now that when Venky's do exit, they will max out on their recoverables which doesn't augur well for our future or even very existance.  Lets be frank, I don't think they give a toss for the club or its supporters and we can expect no favours.

[Gav]

Just now, Ozz said:

You can tell we`re in the sh1t when there`s a lot in interest in the Trust  again.

It may have more to do with the future makeup of the Trust than the club being in the sh1t.....

[Gav]

21 minutes ago, 47er said:

Well, you've given me an out by saying no-one can answer it! But I will do my best to offer my thoughts on it.

First of all, we must accept that at some point a crunch will come. Venkys have not so much put money in as allowed debt to mount and borrowed to pay the interest. That cannot go on forever and therefore, if you accept that they will never actually cough up, then they will leave at the point where there are no or insufficient assets to sell and no more cuts that can be made. I suspect they would declare their British Company insolvent and creditors here would get virtually nothing back. How the Indian Banks would deal with that we can't say because we don't know the terms of the loans.

At that point we would go into administration I imagine.

At that point Rovers could be attractive to buyers and obviously I'm hoping a fan-Friendly consortium would step in. Ian Battersby has implied as much in very general terms.

We should be encouraged by seeing several clubs come back from the dead or from a near-death experience thanks to the devotion of their fans. Wimbledon is an example that should give us great heart. If they can do it, so can we. Very few clubs have died and never returned, certainly none of the size of Rovers. It would be pretty amazing wouldn't it if Accrington Stanley can recover and we couldn't?

So,for me, not something to fear and far better than the slow death we are currently enduring.

You seem prepared to go on like we are forever, I can't wait for it to end.

I can't give you a list of intending buyers, I have no inside info but I cannot believe a club with the history will be allowed to go under.

Relegation, admin-------prefer them all to what we have now.

Fresh start, drain the swamp!

 

You've been reading my posts again 47er

[Ozz]

Just now, Gav said:

It may have more to do with the future makeup of the Trust than the club being in the sh1t.....

Probably Gav. Colour me very worried.

[47er]

Just now, Gav said:

You've been reading my posts again 47er

Great minds and all that Gav!

To be fair I've been saying this for a long time now!

[Parsonblue]

Just now, Stuart said:

@47er @Daniel Louis Grabko (Dan)

Two excellent posts.

Have to hope that the consortium would be prepared to speak to the administrator about taking us over.

To be honest, unless we are taken over by a rich sheikh or Chinese oligarch (and I can't fathom why they would) then we will surely become a NewCo.

Next question, assuming somebody comes in, which division would we start in? I think we can safely say, despite what happened with Rangers, that the EFL would stick two fingers up at us, so L2 is out. Would the Conference or Conference North take us? There's an argument in our favour if we have 10k crowds. If the hardcore continue to stick with the club "through thick and thin" (rather than defect to a league side) stick around, and the NAPM boycotters return, then it may be possible. If, however, we follow the Hereford FC route then we would end up in the North West Counties League (the 9th tier), and a MINIMUM 5 years back to the football league.

But right now, I'd take even that 'adventure' if it meant it was the ONLY way to get rid of Venkys. But I suspect I am in a very small minority (in the hundreds). I'm not sure Seneca would see a return on that so anything below Conference would be a complete starter upper and probably years of ignominy. Would the football authorities be okay with that? Probably.

Would you be there @Parsonblue?

Funnily enough we were discussing the very same thing before the game yesterday.  Ground sharing with Darwen and playing in the North West Counties League as an amateur/part-time outfit.  Stanley took about forty years to get back, obviously AFC Wimbledon did it much quicker.  I'm sure there will be a few hundred of us who would still be there no matter what but lets hope it never comes to that.

[47er]

Away games would be nearer! Every cloud....

[Stuart]

Just now, Jbizzle said:

In what reality do the Rao give up and walk away? I can only see them selling on their own terms, how do we tie their hands? 

The situation could go one of many ways, I don't think many people are awake to the ownership being followed by something even worse or more untoward, are there ways as fans to ensure this doesn't happen?

I ask because you've been involved, no worries if you're none the wiser because this seems the big issue. When others ask me if fans should keep going, I always say yes because from my(and a few others) angle, that will bear an impact in deciding what happens to us next.

Im aware that this impact is probably negligible but the other side of the coin seems far more dangerous. The owners are so arrogant and isolated, who would be suprised if they saw a completely empty ground and just decided to wind us up for lack of interest?

In what way could things be worse than Venkys, allegedly, paying off interest on debt with more debt, and hoping for a miracle?

An asset stripping company? If there was anything to sell, you would have to expect it would have already been sold, or would be before any sale.

More untoward? Are you kidding? We are being run into the ground, at worst, and left to find money ourselves, at best.

If 10k fans rally round and buy season tickets before then end of April - then what? Let's say an average of £200 per season ticket, including children and concessions, £2m. Does this keep the current club infrastructure afloat for a month? The Summer? Til Christmas? What players can we sell in the Summer?

These are the ONLY senior players still under contract come June (it's just about a full team - decent in League One but can we afford them and would they want to stay with only one year left?):

Steele - 1y - Calamity keeper. No.2 elsewhere £500k

Raya - 2y - Rovers No.1 next season - Young with potential

Williams - 2y - £1m based on contract length

Ward - 1y - free to cancel contract - can't get in the side ahead of Brown

Mulgrew - 2y - Best player but crock - free to offload wage

Nyambe - 1y - Young with potential 

Lenihan - 2y - Would get a move to the Championship £1.5m

Evans - 2y - won't haggle over him - big wage I suspect - free

Bennett - 1y - would expect him to leave but I would like to see him stay

Conway - 1y - will get picked up by a Championship side £500k

Feeney - 1y - somebody would definitely take him £500k

Graham - 1y - can't see him wanting to play in L1 - big wage - off on free and we pay half his wages to get rid

Stokes - 2y - we'll stick with this lad unless somebody in Scotland offers him a route - don't see him giving up his contract - one of the players the Phoenix club pays off at a rate of £200pw.

So I get about £4m, plus the £2m from STs.

Assuming no transfer fees, no loan fees, £1m agents fees to shift the earners and bring in frees/loans. Let's take off another £1m running costs include non-playing staff (all in). That's:

£4m for 18 players for 52 weeks a year of £4k per week per player.

You have to think that this club Venkys (or rather their hapless minions) need relegation to League One - maybe even League Two.

[mhead]

Its Sunday and after one of the most desperate Saturdays I can ever remember(not quite on a par with Palace away) I have just logged on to my emails and brfcs.

After only one day I think everyone needs to just count to ten and hope for the next home match.

When a Barnsley team full of young lads and an unknown Manager come to Ewood and just woosh us off the Park, then it just demonstrates how far we have slipped.

The Trust election....having a Plan B and Plan C....and all the things I have tried to gently put forward in recent posts, seemed relevant yet irrelevant. Very depressing.

I am sure we will be planning more Protests soon(when we are relegated)

I am sure the Trust needs to considerably up its game

I am sure there are Investor Supporters who will come to the rescue.

But its just so sad and needless.

[JBiz]

14 minutes ago, Stuart said:

In what way could things be worse than Venkys, allegedly, paying off interest on debt with more debt, and hoping for a miracle?

An asset stripping company? If there was anything to sell, you would have to expect it would have already been sold, or would be before any sale.

More untoward? Are you kidding? We are being run into the ground, at worst, and left to find money ourselves, at best.

You have to think that this club Venkys (or rather their hapless minions) need relegation to League One - maybe even League Two.

1. I'm not listing ways it can be worse, you don't need me to. You know exactly what I mean, the club could cease to exist - that's the worst thing that could happen, so to assume; The end of Venkys = a new successful era is just looking at it from a perspective of a fan/from this position. It's not simple. Some might think it is, it's not.

2. You say asset stripping, well finally after years of seeing that term used wrongly, it applies to what could happen if we ended up being put in admin (cite rangers) or potentially if the debt is written off and club given to the highest bidder with a huge turnover deficit. Despite the debt, there are still structural assets to strip. 

3. More untoward. Gaydamak. Recon. Oyston. Sisu. Tony Fernandes. A few examples of disasters happened, happening etc - maybe of different levels of "dodgyness", but all ran poorly in terms of how they should be. Villa for example, they spent two years "for sale" and in this time made mistake after mistake. The "at best finding our own money" is life for 95% of football clubs, the only difference for us is we've been propped up to a position where premier league money is required to support infrastructure.

 

One thing that hasn't been ignored or not funded (to most reports, best knowledge) is the academy. A simple way things can get worse? It closes.

[Stuart]

Just now, Jbizzle said:

1. I'm not listing ways it can be worse, you don't need me to. You know exactly what I mean, the club could cease to exist - that's the worst thing that could happen, so to assume; The end of Venkys = a new successful era is just looking at it from a perspective of a fan/from this position. It's not simple. Some might think it is, it's not.

2. You say asset stripping, well finally after years of seeing that term used wrongly, it applies to what could happen if we ended up being put in admin (cite rangers) or potentially if the debt is written off and club given to the highest bidder with a huge turnover deficit. Despite the debt, there are still structural assets to strip. 

3. More untoward. Gaydamak. Recon. Oyston. Sisu. Tony Fernandes. A few examples of disasters happened, happening etc - maybe of different levels of "dodgyness", but all ran poorly in terms of how they should be. Villa for example, they spent two years "for sale" and in this time made mistake after mistake. The "at best finding our own money" is life for 95% of football clubs, the only difference for us is we've been propped up to a position where premier league money is required to support infrastructure.

 

One thing that hasn't been ignored or not funded (to most reports, best knowledge) is the academy. A simple way things can get worse? It closes.

See my other post about the lack of successful new era post Venkys - I'm under no illusions.

You give Venkys an awful lot more credit than they deserve with your comparisons to 'worse' owners. Out of the list, only Gaydamak comes close, for what happened since, and that's because of where Portsmouth ended up. But even they are better off now he has gone and they have Supporter Trust backing so to say sticking with Venkys is the best option, is to say that Pompey should have stuck with him.

However, let's take them in turn, and say, "they are all crap but":

Gaydamak won Pompey the FA Cup.

You think that Tony Xia is worse than Randy Lerner?

The Oystons got Blackpool into the PL and upgraded the ground.

SISU have just won Coventry the Football League Trophy.

Fernandes won QPR promotion to the PL.

Yes, they have all been pretty terrible from their own fans' perspective but Venkys have brought nothing but destruction. There has been no high to compensate for the lows. There no "ah well at least Rovers got...".

The only person you've not mentioned and I would have agreed would be Fawaz Al-Hasawi he is about as clueless as Venkys but at least even he is looking to sell. Our lot don't even have the decency to acknowledge offers.

[JBiz]

Just now, Stuart said:

See my other post about the lack of successful new era post Venkys - I'm under no illusions.

You give Venkys an awful lot more credit than they deserve with your comparisons to 'worse' owners. Out of the list, only Gaydamak comes close, for what happened since, and that's because of where Portsmouth ended up. But even they are better off now he has gone and they have Supporter Trust backing so to say sticking with Venkys is the best option, is to say that Pompey should have stuck with him.

However, let's take them in turn, and say, "they are all crap but":

Gaydamak won Pompey the FA Cup.

You think that Tony Xia is worse than Randy Lerner?

The Oystons got Blackpool into the PL and upgraded the ground.

SISU have just won Coventry the Football League Trophy.

Fernandes won QPR promotion to the PL.

Yes, they have all been pretty terrible from their own fans' perspective but Venkys have brought nothing but destruction. There has been no high to compensate for the lows. There no "ah well at least Rovers got...".

The only person you've not mentioned and I would have agreed would be Fawaz Al-Hasawi he is about as clueless as Venkys but at least even he is looking to sell. Our lot don't even have the decency to acknowledge offers.

There are plenty of others. Football is littered with chairman, owners, names that send a chill, from Shinawatra to Murray, origin is irrelevant! Forest are another good example.

Giving Sisu, or the hedgefund that owns any credit is ignorant of the last 10+ years, not the "paltry" 6+ we've experienced....!! 

Fernandes has straddled QPR with nearly twice the debt we are in. You know the ill feeling with Blackpool, and the manufacturing of their league position. Recon are a result of what may happen to us, (albeit still in action how they'll fair, i.e "still happening") what kind of owners are you attracting if it takes two years to sell? Granted Lerners asking price reduced upon relegation.. that again puts question marks on their door.

Birmingham, Leyton Orient, Morecambe, Tranmere, Darlington, etc etc. A million different examples, the number outweighs the walkers and the Sheiks.

I agree that we've been destroyed, but I'm concerned that there is plenty still to dismantle, and that's why I asked DG the question!

Pompeys scenario might look like the best all round. Some say they'd take a Phoenix to be rid of Venkys but personally, if we could keep the club/stand/history at the cost of 2 relegations and a loss of facilities, I'd only cry myself to sleep 6 nights out of 7.

[MCMC1875]

3 hours ago, Daniel Louis Grabko (Dan) said:

Why does everyone seem to forget that a deal for majority ownership that included a real and substantial capital investment was put together by a locally based consortium led by Battersby's investment firm that Rovers Trust did in fact help flesh out and facilitate, but that the Venkys didn't even have the decency to decline politely but instead most insultingly publicly denied the very existence of?

That was this very season. The, "who would be interested in buying us?" dismissive rhetoric isn't valid. There are people that have shown interest in just that only a short few months ago.

Administration most likely wouldn't decrease the amount of capital needed by such a group to come in, but it would allow more of that capital to go to righting and rebuilding the club rather than to the blood sucking leeches that current own 99.99% of the shares of our club!!

Because you didn't bloody well publicise it, that's why! Your PR is non existent. Move over.

[MCMC1875]

14 hours ago, Stuart said:

'Tis all a bit daft really, isn't it. And very very British:

"Right we are struggling to get numbers, resource, let alone momentum behind this project"

"Well, there's 7 people who really want to help"

"Jolly good. We only want 4 helpers in this committee though"

"But how do we decide which 3 to fob off?"

"Democratically, of course! We'll have a vote and the three lowest won't get to help. Or they might. If we co-opt them later"

"But shouldn't we just be getting on with it and worrying about more important (and more pressing) things like renewing the ACV on Ewood Park?"

"All in good time, old bean. We have a procedure to follow. We should have a committee confirmed in about 6 weeks, then we can form a sub-committee to co-opt a working part to arrange a meeting with the senior committee. We'll have this nailed down and ready to roll out in 3 months. With a fair wind."

"Sporty"

"I thought so"

Spot on this.

Fiasco from start to finish.

Why was the election late after holding previous elections?

Why are ERS (independent service provider) not involved any more?

Why only four posts available?

Why not make maximum posts available?

Why was there a leader board?

Why was the polling software faulty?

[SIMON GARNERS 194]

4 hours ago, Parsonblue said:

Thanks for the reply 47er.  You make a number of interesting points, many of which I wouldn't disagree with.  I suspect next season will be the point when we will know if Venkys are going to stay, go or put the club into administration - or even liquidation.  Worrying times for all of us who have Blackburn Rovers at heart irrespective of whether we attend or boycott.   

A new club publication for you Parson?....'Blackburn Rovers: The Final Chapter'

[Dunnfc]

I sense allot of passion from those like mhead and MCMC here from WMC Supporters club.

Good to see if these get in, more communication from the trust will be coming. Hopefully you guys will be able to get Dan Grabko & others to assist going forwards.

Great to see the level of interest in this too over the last couple of weeks, exactly what we need.

[TBTF]

17 hours ago, MCMC1875 said:

Because you didn't bloody well publicise it, that's why! Your PR is non existent. Move over.

I think everyone was aware of the Senaca bid and that these morons lied about it ever happening-and it was on the Cheston watch. What I don't think any body appreciated was that the Trust had anything to do with it .In fact I'm pretty sure had the Trust been involved we would have heard far more about it both then and more recently when many pieces have been written on here about what the Trust have achieved. My own recollection for what its worth was that  the Trust did back that Senaca bid and it coincided with lots of votes organised by the Trust about whether fans would support it- and the numbers suggested that they very much would support it.

Other than that MCMC, I'm pretty sure that was the limit of the Trusts involvement. I am also pretty sure that Senaca are completely and deliberately away from any fan groups for obvious reasons.

But Mercerman is spot on and I agree with what he says about the bid. It was ridiculous of Venkys to deny it all and then sell our 2 centre halves, pocket the cash and then not spend any more money. And when we do go down it will be another big drop in TV money which means that Venkys will have to find even more money to prop it up. Like the other 20,000 none of us get it one jot.

But please Venkys just hand over the keys and go whilst there is still the slightest glimmer of keeping this once proud institution alive. 

 

[mhead]

Waiting for Election Result....polls closed at 1000hrs this morning.

Predict that only I get in and that will be very sad and maybe a lonely position.

Still cannot work out why only 4 posts...in 2013 it was 6 posts, and its not as if the Trust Board was at the 10 to 12 elected members level.

Still heavily depressed about Saturday and how weakened the Venkys left us this season.

Only positive is that 'slimy' Senior must be feeling worse as his meal-ticket is going down the plug-hole.

Keep the Faith.

[1864roverite]

One thing is for certain, the club isn't worth anything near like it was, even less in the Championship and now even less as we take another drop. Maybe the time is ripe for a renewed bid of say £10m for Venkys to hand the club over to people who have the club at heart. Moreover, rumours of Chinese interest in Oldham beg the question why there isn't any sort of interest in Rovers, we have the ground the infrastructure and facilities, we just don't have a senior management team capable of running the club properly. A much cheaper option for easy investment. 

[TBTF]

38 minutes ago, 1864roverite said:

One thing is for certain, the club isn't worth anything near like it was, even less in the Championship and now even less as we take another drop. Maybe the time is ripe for a renewed bid of say £10m for Venkys to hand the club over to people who have the club at heart. Moreover, rumours of Chinese interest in Oldham beg the question why there isn't any sort of interest in Rovers, we have the ground the infrastructure and facilities, we just don't have a senior management team capable of running the club properly. A much cheaper option for easy investment. 

£10m ?? What for??  Its worth £1 on a good day and a bribe from someone to get you to take it off their hands on most other days.

Car Crash FC is bust lets all face up to it. It only pays the bills by virtue of some nutjobs in Pune sending their pocket money over each month. When they get bored with that its over the next day.

We just have to hope that the Ians /Senaca are there with a bloody big safety net. If the unthinkable happens I dread to think how many idiots will surface from all parts of the globe looking to pick at the carcass. Look at Bolton .. what a shambles and please nobody say they are sorted because they are getting promoted. They are skint , hocked up to the eyeballs and exactly where we will be when Scumbags leave. I suppose our DoF has got whiter teeth , fatter lips and talks more like a ponce  than theirs though on the plus side.