[Archived] Rovers Trust/Action Group/Ians

[tomphil]

I got the impression from the Mr Battersby interview that a big cause for concern is what the real debt is and how it's secured and to whom. No one is going to risk throwing a bid in without knowing that and the only way to find out would be due diligence and that brings us back to someone putting in a bid big enough to get a foot in the door. Not easy.

[Dunnfc]

Ways around the debt...

briefly at the moment this is guaranteed personally by VHPL then the monies passed through to VLL then BRFC. 

The issue isn't the debt as such it's gaining an understanding to VHPL, let's be honest they paid 0.25 p to the pound for the club initially so there is that avenue to explore itself.

Next avenue is switch the PG status if bank is willing to someone prepared to bring it crashing down after through administration, that way in an admin the debt is against and chased at the individual or entity wiping the club clean of it if no charges are held against it and laying them at the individual. 

End of the day a guarantee is only what it is, a promise to repay although the lender usually can chase the holder for everything. If battersby was prepared to plunge some cash to an individual to get it going is the next question, seen it done on smaller scales admittedly not football clubs.

[TBTF]

1 hour ago, Dunnfc said:

Ways around the debt...

briefly at the moment this is guaranteed personally by VHPL then the monies passed through to VLL then BRFC. 

The issue isn't the debt as such it's gaining an understanding to VHPL, let's be honest they paid 0.25 p to the pound for the club initially so there is that avenue to explore itself.

Next avenue is switch the PG status if bank is willing to someone prepared to bring it crashing down after through administration, that way in an admin the debt is against and chased at the individual or entity wiping the club clean of it if no charges are held against it and laying them at the individual. 

End of the day a guarantee is only what it is, a promise to repay although the lender usually can chase the holder for everything. If battersby was prepared to plunge some cash to an individual to get it going is the next question, seen it done on smaller scales admittedly not football clubs.

You've lost me Dunny-its not difficult pal !!!

[AndyNeil]

the Rovers Trust have announced the results of their election here >> http://www.roverstrust.com/2017/04/11/2017-board-election-results/

Congratulations to those elected - the hard work starts here.

[AllRoverAsia]

Well done.

I do hope that all or at least some of the unsuccessful candidates get co-opted onto the Board.

[Dunnfc]

Just now, AllRoverAsia said:

Well done.

I do hope that all or at least some of the unsuccessful candidates get co-opted onto the Board.

Seconded, even people like Andy Neil who didn't stand would be worthy.

well done to those elected 

[bob fleming]

1 hour ago, AllRoverAsia said:

Well done.

I do hope that all or at least some of the unsuccessful candidates get co-opted onto the Board.

Agreed. There are seven people there prepared to spend their time and energy on this.

Would it really hurt to have a Trust Board with seven people on it?  Is seven really too many? I'm struggling to think of any negatives.

[mhead]

As  I understand it , the 4 people now on the Board are the only members of the Board now. When you understand that Ozz Jones was the Vice-Chairman  before and Michael Doherty was also co-opted....that just leaves myself and Steven Bradley(based in New York and rarely able to attend) as the only new Board members!

Makes you wonder why we have had a highly dysfunctional Election.....where the main comment to me has been "Am I still a member?"

The many comments on here(and to me even today thanking me for standing) all said 'change is needed now more than ever'.

We will need further assistance because this is not a changed Board but more a re-structuring and re-seeding job!!

[AllRoverAsia]

How many elected Board members were there before this election? What is the legal minimum number required?

Nothing to do with those co-opted.

Surely it is a changed Board if only Ozz of the previously elected Board remains?

[Stuart]

1 hour ago, mhead said:

As  I understand it , the 4 people now on the Board are the only members of the Board now. When you understand that Ozz Jones was the Vice-Chairman  before and Michael Doherty was also co-opted....that just leaves myself and Steven Bradley(based in New York and rarely able to attend) as the only new Board members!

Makes you wonder why we have had a highly dysfunctional Election.....where the main comment to me has been "Am I still a member?"

The many comments on here(and to me even today thanking me for standing) all said 'change is needed now more than ever'.

We will need further assistance because this is not a changed Board but more a re-structuring and re-seeding job!!

Good luck with it and thanks for putting your hand up to get involved. That goes for the other three. With Ozz you have continuity and a staying power that will really help the new guys.

I hope the other three guys are also involved.

I'm sure 7 roles would be very easy to fill:

Chair, Vice chair, Secretary, Treasurer, Media, Membership - that's six without really thinking about it.

Could have been a bit more diverse a group to choose from but that's the nature of the hardcore supporter, I guess.

Not that I'm a dad to any of you and you are all grown ups but, remember, you are all now part of a team and need to work together. There cannot be factions within a faction. Agree to work through any issues and to compromise wherever possible.

[Mercer]

On ‎10‎/‎04‎/‎2017 at 6:23 PM, Dunnfc said:

Ways around the debt...

briefly at the moment this is guaranteed personally by VHPL then the monies passed through to VLL then BRFC. 

The issue isn't the debt as such it's gaining an understanding to VHPL, let's be honest they paid 0.25 p to the pound for the club initially so there is that avenue to explore itself.

Next avenue is switch the PG status if bank is willing to someone prepared to bring it crashing down after through administration, that way in an admin the debt is against and chased at the individual or entity wiping the club clean of it if no charges are held against it and laying them at the individual. 

End of the day a guarantee is only what it is, a promise to repay although the lender usually can chase the holder for everything. If battersby was prepared to plunge some cash to an individual to get it going is the next question, seen it done on smaller scales admittedly not football clubs.

Think you are getting mixed up between cross company guarantees and personal guarantees.

A cross company guarantee is an arrangement between two or more related firms eg VHPL, VLL.

A personal guarantee is typically from a business owner, but could be other eg father acting as a guarantor for son, and can be either secured or unsecured.

A 'belt and braces' arrangement could see BOI having both cross company guarantees and secured personal guarantees from one or more of the Raos (eg Balaji is a personal guarantor with his land bank legally charged by BOI).

What we should not lose sight of is regardless of such guarantees, BOI can pursue, and almost certainly would (they already reserve the right to take a debenture), Rovers directly for monies advanced from BOI to The Blackburn Rovers and Athletic Limited potentially leading to an insolvency situation.  Lenders who hold guarantees usually only rely upon them as a last resort when all other avenues to recovery its debt have been exhausted.

What we do not know is what monies, if any, BOI has lent to the Raos as individuals in order to allow them to issue some £130m of shares in VLL with that money in turn then loaned to Rovers.  Also, bear in mind that this inter company loan was shown as being repayable within 12 months in the March 2016 accounts of VLL.

 

[Dunnfc]

2 hours ago, Mercer said:

Think you are getting mixed up between cross company guarantees and personal guarantees.

A cross company guarantee is an arrangement between two or more related firms eg VHPL, VLL.

A personal guarantee is typically from a business owner, but could be other eg father acting as a guarantor for son, and can be either secured or unsecured.

A 'belt and braces' arrangement could see BOI having both cross company guarantees and secured personal guarantees from one or more of the Raos (eg Balaji is a personal guarantor with his land bank legally charged by BOI).

What we should not lose sight of is regardless of such guarantees, BOI can pursue, and almost certainly would (they already reserve the right to take a debenture), Rovers directly for monies advanced from BOI to The Blackburn Rovers and Athletic Limited potentially leading to an insolvency situation.  Lenders who hold guarantees usually only rely upon them as a last resort when all other avenues to recovery its debt have been exhausted.

What we do not know is what monies, if any, BOI has lent to the Raos as individuals in order to allow them to issue some £130m of shares in VLL with that money in turn then loaned to Rovers.  Also, bear in mind that this inter company loan was shown as being repayable within 12 months in the March 2016 accounts of VLL.

 

Not getting confused at all, just didn't make it clear. It's crossed between VHPL and Venco , as listed in credit report from ICCA India whereby the short lend went from A*** to A and longer term borrowing downgraded to BBB

 

youll find Venco is only cash rich company and not exactly there's. That is who is lending VHPL then VLL then BRFC 1134 crores less some 82 costs which works out in pounds the number of shares in circulation at BRFC. 

 

Il dig the report out and email?

[McClarky]

Personally can't see any future for the club.  There's no way anyone is going to get hold of the books to do due diligence so there's no way the club can be sold.  Why would anyone want to buy it even if it was sell able?  Debts must outweigh value by about 5 : 1.  Totally untenable.  I think it's a matter if waiting it out until the Vs ride off into the sunset leaving a smouldering corpse behind.  In my view this is delayed by every pound that anyone puts into their pockets so a total boycott is the best option.

[tomphil]

1 hour ago, Dunnfc said:

Not getting confused at all, just didn't make it clear. It's crossed between VHPL and Venco , as listed in credit report from ICCA India whereby the short lend went from A*** to A and longer term borrowing downgraded to BBB

 

youll find Venco is only cash rich company and not exactly there's. That is who is lending VHPL then VLL then BRFC 1134 crores less some 82 costs which works out in pounds the number of shares in circulation at BRFC. 

 

Il dig the report out and email?

Venco as in Vencomatic ?      There seems to be some worldwide poultry conglomerate going on so are they behind that ?  If so where does the dosh for all that come from I wonder.

[Mercer]

11 hours ago, Dunnfc said:

Not getting confused at all, just didn't make it clear. It's crossed between VHPL and Venco , as listed in credit report from ICCA India whereby the short lend went from A*** to A and longer term borrowing downgraded to BBB

 

youll find Venco is only cash rich company and not exactly there's. That is who is lending VHPL then VLL then BRFC 1134 crores less some 82 costs which works out in pounds the number of shares in circulation at BRFC. 

 

Il dig the report out and email?

VENCO RESEARCH AND BREEDING FARM PRIVATE LIMITED seems to be a joint venture with VHPL having 60% and Venco has a profitability of c£10m pa and a net worth of c£60m based upon the last information I could find.

I'd be pretty surprised therefore if Venco had either the inclination (can't see the other owners in the joint venture being up for it) or the financial capability to 'put' close on £150m into Rovers. 

I think we would all be fascinated if you could post on here key extracts from the report that you think backs up your thoughts and numbers.

 

[1864roverite]

email them

[email protected]   might be able to spout a bit of venom their way for the way they have treated us all.

[Dunnfc]

2 hours ago, Mercer said:

VENCO RESEARCH AND BREEDING FARM PRIVATE LIMITED seems to be a joint venture with VHPL having 60% and Venco has a profitability of c£10m pa and a net worth of c£60m based upon the last information I could find.

I'd be pretty surprised therefore if Venco had either the inclination (can't see the other owners in the joint venture being up for it) or the financial capability to 'put' close on £150m into Rovers. 

I think we would all be fascinated if you could post on here key extracts from the report that you think backs up your thoughts and numbers.

 

It's a joint venture between them and Cobb (A company with an office in Colchester and three across the world) whom are 100% owned themselves by Tyson Foods. This is an article I found from a credit agency point of view which sheds more light on the matters, I suggest everyone reads this.

http://www.icra.in/Files/Reports/Rationale/Venkateshwara Hatch-R-03112016.pdf

 

Intresting last paragraph - Management lessens investment to less that 100 crore. 1 crore is 120,000 multiplied by 100 = 12 Million. So that might just be  the level of yearly investment going forwards.

 

270 crores last year to the subsidiary oversees AND sister company. So the monies last time came from VENCO. A Joint Venture company!

[Mercer]

I think you need to keep it simple:

1 crore = 10 million Indian rupees = circa £120k.

One of the big areas of speculation is just how Venky's have funded Rovers over the years.  Personally, I think it's as clear as mud and wouldn't go anywhere near this lot.

[chaddyrovers]

From Graham Jones MP

Ministerial reply and a reply for the FA on 'Owners and Directors' test at Blackburn Rovers. @BRFCActionGroup @RoversTrust @onerovers https://t.co/v4OC1duM8Z

[tomphil]

1 hour ago, Dunnfc said:

It's a joint venture between them and Cobb (A company with an office in Colchester and three across the world) whom are 100% owned themselves by Tyson Foods. This is an article I found from a credit agency point of view which sheds more light on the matters, I suggest everyone reads this.

http://www.icra.in/Files/Reports/Rationale/Venkateshwara Hatch-R-03112016.pdf

 

Intresting last paragraph - Management lessens investment to less that 100 crore. 1 crore is 120,000 multiplied by 100 = 12 Million. So that might just be  the level of yearly investment going forwards.

 

270 crores last year to the subsidiary oversees AND sister company. So the monies last time came from VENCO. A Joint Venture company!

Good find this and basically it's all in there the club along with one or two other things has been causing the main group a concern with draining resources and that's the main reason for the clampdown of funding from that direction. Naff all to do with FFP and it has to be down to bling just hanging on because surely others in the main group have expressed concern at this pointless arm of the company. No chance of any return at all on it unless it's in the Prem now and it won't manage to fund itself for much longer.

Wouldn't be surprised if bling and the others have been draining money out via the club from the main group seeing as the whole empire seems mostly run on debt and oversees investment. No surprise to see the whole thing go bang one day from the overstretching of too rapid expansion. Either that or they'll take over the world.

 

Also about time Dunnfc got a bit of credit he's dug up more in past few months than most have in years, well done sir interesting stuff.

[Dunnfc]

15 minutes ago, chaddyrovers said:

From Graham Jones MP

Ministerial reply and a reply for the FA on 'Owners and Directors' test at Blackburn Rovers. @BRFCActionGroup @RoversTrust @onerovers https://t.co/v4OC1duM8Z

How can you apply fit and proper test when it's only applicable for UK directors and those based here?

additionally looks like that letter is a standard reply he got which appears to have also been sent to other fans

[lraC]

27 minutes ago, tomphil said:

Good find this and basically it's all in there the club along with one or two other things has been causing the main group a concern with draining resources and that's the main reason for the clampdown of funding from that direction. Naff all to do with FFP and it has to be down to bling just hanging on because surely others in the main group have expressed concern at this pointless arm of the company. No chance of any return at all on it unless it's in the Prem now and it won't manage to fund itself for much longer.

Wouldn't be surprised if bling and the others have been draining money out via the club from the main group seeing as the whole empire seems mostly run on debt and oversees investment. No surprise to see the whole thing go bang one day from the overstretching of too rapid expansion. Either that or they'll take over the world.

 

Also about time Dunnfc got a bit of credit he's dug up more in past few months than most have in years, well done sir interesting stuff.

A massive well done to Dunnfc with this. I know dialogue is taking place with the club at the minute. Not too sure if this has already been done, but what about E Mailing Cheston and getting him to explain the statement that we can't expect the owners to keep funding us? It is pretty clear from all this information, that they never have.

[J*B]

4 hours ago, lraC said:

A massive well done to Dunnfc with this. I know dialogue is taking place with the club at the minute. Not too sure if this has already been done, but what about E Mailing Cheston and getting him to explain the statement that we can't expect the owners to keep funding us? It is pretty clear from all this information, that they never have.

Get yourself down to WMC to hear further about what those nasty protestors that hate the club are doing behind the scenes. 

[TBTF]

On 12/04/2017 at 4:14 PM, lraC said:

A massive well done to Dunnfc with this. I know dialogue is taking place with the club at the minute. Not too sure if this has already been done, but what about E Mailing Cheston and getting him to explain the statement that we can't expect the owners to keep funding us? It is pretty clear from all this information, that they never have.

Let's be honest IraC   Cheston doesn't have a clue where it comes from or how. Bean counting nobhead who thought he had won the pools and got above himself at the start of the season with his public spotlight ramblings. As soon as it went pear shaped he crawled back under his stone never to be heard from again. 

And so we move on To Swiss Tony........ more @#/? from him in Jan and with us staring down the barrel he has gone quiet too.

we will go down in complete silence and they will pretend it never happened and business as usual .

it won't be long till we get the " like for like ST sales" figures. I can't stand any more. I give in .

[MCMC1875]

I understand that some duplicate votes have not yet been discounted.