[Archived] Safe Standing - Lobby the club to vote YES before Friday

[Al]

So you'll only have people sat down who'll stay down and not get up during moments of excitement?

i doubt that would be the case.

Everybody gets up during moments of excitement. We all know that and nobody minds. You are just being obtuse.

[broadsword]

I'm being perfectly clear! You're a sulker, Al.

If people stand up all through the game then some (at least) of them should be chucked out pour encourager les autres.

Ripping out seats just to accommodate people whose selfishness spoils it for others is the wrong approach. You don't give in to idiots, you make them play by the rules.

[Al]

I'm being perfectly clear! You're a sulker, Al.

If people stand up all through the game then some (at least) of them should be chucked out pour encourager les autres.

Ripping out seats just to accommodate people whose selfishness spoils it for others is the wrong approach. You don't give in to idiots, you make them play by the rules.

Why? Seems to me you are the sulker. Live and let live is a much better way to solve the situation.

Although I cannot argue that some of the ones who persistently stand in seated areas should be chucked out.

[Paul]

Utd support for safe standing:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2559247/Manchester-United-declare-support-safe-standing-Old-Trafford-handing-campaign-major-boost.html

[den]

http://www.alastaircampbell.org/blog/2014/02/16/stand-up-for-the-standing-up-my-observer-debate-with-danny-kelly-on-safe-standing/

[Ben-2000]

Definately gaining momentum! The authorities can't ignore the issue forever.

[Gav]

Hardly the top of our agenda at the moment but it seems Celtic have been given permission to introduce safe standing next season and about time to.

After the Hillsborough coverup and subsequent persecution of football fans all over the country for the next 30yrs, lets hope the next 30yrs see the balance redressed.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/celtic-announce-introduction-safe-standing-7897632#y953Lzv2bxvyf1wc.97

[Al]

I can't understand why in God's name anybody wants to stand for two hours when you can sit down and watch the match in relative comfort.

[AggyBlue]

I can't understand why in God's name anybody wants to stand for two hours when you can sit down and watch the match in relative comfort.

It's an age thing Al.

At least all the singers could get together as in the old days.

[Neal]

I can't understand why in God's name anybody wants to stand for two hours when you can sit down and watch the match in relative comfort.

Works the other way that, I can't understand why people wouldn't want to stand up and support their team for 90 minutes, unless you're a family or getting on a bit. This is why the Bundesliga has left everyone behind atmosphere wise, I travel regularly to Berlin and if they're playing at home i'll go and watch Hertha with the Ultras. I've never witnessed anything like it, jump up and down for 90 minutes, constantly singing, can drink where you sit/stand. Football should be for EVERYBODY and that's what Germany has done, catered for everyone. Here in England it's over policed and regulated with a do and don't at every turn and I for one am bored and sick to death of it. The game has been run by fuddy duddy's and dinosaurs for too long from top to bottom. Why is it so difficult to cater for those who want to stand up and support their team? Absolute joke.

[Parsonblue]

Works the other way that, I can't understand why people wouldn't want to stand up and support their team for 90 minutes, unless you're a family or getting on a bit. This is why the Bundesliga has left everyone behind atmosphere wise, I travel regularly to Berlin and if they're playing at home i'll go and watch Hertha with the Ultras. I've never witnessed anything like it, jump up and down for 90 minutes, constantly singing, can drink where you sit/stand. Football should be for EVERYBODY and that's what Germany has done, catered for everyone. Here in England it's over policed and regulated with a do and don't at every turn and I for one am bored and sick to death of it. The game has been run by fuddy duddy's and dinosaurs for too long from top to bottom. Why is it so difficult to cater for those who want to stand up and support their team? Absolute joke.

One word - Hillsborough. To get standing areas back it requires a change in the law and I suspect no Government - of whatever party - would prepared to be the one to bring back standing areas in case there should be another tragedy and the blame would be put in their direction.

[Neal]

One word - Hillsborough. To get standing areas back it requires a change in the law and I suspect no Government - of whatever party - would prepared to be the one to bring back standing areas in case there should be another tragedy and the blame would be put in their direction.

http://www.petitionbuzz.com/uploaded/1601140931559f0a003baa6473d02d02431ff9.jpg

With safe standing seats that would be implemented there would close to 0% chance of that repeating again. Hillsbrough happened and it's been learned from and ultimately those to blame have been brought to justice but I just don't see why large groups of supporters around the country should have to suffer because a minorities failings decades ago. It's time to move on, just like Celtic have done who co-incidentally have close ties with Liverpool.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/36205523

[Stuart]

One word - Hillsborough. To get standing areas back it requires a change in the law and I suspect no Government - of whatever party - would prepared to be the one to bring back standing areas in case there should be another tragedy and the blame would be put in their direction.

This shows an ignorance of what safe standing is all about.

This is not in anyway about 'bringing back standing areas'. It is about a natural extension to the current seating arrangements. You would still have a numbered ticket allowing you to stand only in the spot where there is a foldaway seat. This ensures there is no potential for overcrowding.

[Lancs Rover]

I was up for this after the Brentford game. Me and our lad laughed loud and long at the three fifty-odd year old blokes who were facing away from the game, banging the corrugated metal wall in unison for a good ten minutes in the second half and cranking up the atmosphere for the rest of us. Brilliant and would never have happened in all seater stadia. They weren't even watching the game just having a great time.

But after reading online about Hillsborough, I'm really wary.

Safe-standing is shading it but we have to remain aware of some of the excesses of crowd misbehaviour in the past. Even if a lot of it went on in Mill Hill and other areas outside the ground. Eh, Shaft?

[Neal]

This shows an ignorance of what safe standing is all about.

There is a lot of ignorance towards it and it doesn't take a genius to notice the clue is in the name. SAFE standing.

[Mattyblue]

Police etc. aside, one of the main reasons for the Hillsborough disaster was that the terrace was split into 4 pens- and the fans that were let through the gates all poured into one pen, with no chance to disperse across the Leppings Lane End, as would be standard practice on a busy terrace.

Hillsborough wouldn't have hapenned on a standard open terrace, so it is certainly not going to be repeated in a ticketed stand with rail seating.

[Stuart]

I was up for this after the Brentford game. Me and our lad laughed loud and long at the three fifty-odd year old blokes who were facing away from the game, banging the corrugated metal wall in unison for a good ten minutes in the second half and cranking up the atmosphere for the rest of us. Brilliant and would never have happened in all seater stadia. They weren't even watching the game just having a great time.

But after reading online about Hillsborough, I'm really wary.

Safe-standing is shading it but we have to remain aware of some of the excesses of crowd misbehaviour in the past. Even if a lot of it went on in Mill Hill and other areas outside the ground. Eh, Shaft?

Hillsborough has no more to do with safe standing than Heysel. I'm old enough to remember both. There's an argument that the behaviour of fans in the years before Hillsborough contributed to problems.

The issue now is entirely political. Safe standing arrangements are no less safe than safe seating if done properly. This is not simply the removal of seats and will actually cost clubs money to implement. The current seated capacity of grounds should not increase as a result of safe standing. It's similar to standing now except with an individual barrier to prevent people falling forward.

http://youtu.be/rAqa-auSn8w"]https://youtu.be/rAqa-auSn8w

Fans want safe standing. The trouble is that the only fans who matter now to the football money men are the armchair ones.

[Lancs Rover]

Hillsborough has no more to do with safe standing than Heysel. I'm old enough to remember both. There's an argument that the behaviour of fans in the years before Hillsborough contributed to problems.

The issue now is entirely political. Safe standing arrangements are no less safe than safe seating if done properly. This is not simply the removal of seats and will actually cost clubs money to implement. The current seated capacity of grounds should not increase as a result of safe standing. It's similar to standing now except with an individual barrier to prevent people falling forward.

http://youtu.be/rAqa-auSn8w"]https://youtu.be/rAqa-auSn8w

Fans want safe standing. The trouble is that the only fans who matter now to the football money men are the armchair ones.

Good point, Stuart. Heart says yes, head says dunno.

[Proudtobeblue&white]

Wow, the German model shouts loud!

Dortmund has an incredible stadium, I loved & grew up in the BE, I would love to stand, bring back concrete!

[Giant]

The reason why Hillsborough and all seater stadiums happened was because of football hooligans. Their behaviour including pitch invasions on various occasions, led to the fencing in of terraces. You can talk about the thousands of Liverpool fans who turns up ticketless and were pushing and shoving outside the stadium, and fatally inept policing decisions, but if it hadn't been for hooligans there would have been no fences to trap fans in the pens. Was that ever mentioned in the Hillsborough inquest, probably not. Terraces are dangerous places and should not be brought back, just remember Bolton FA cup disaster, Hyjsel, Inbrox etc.

[West Yorks Rover]

The reason why Hillsborough and all seater stadiums happened was because of football hooligans. Their behaviour including pitch invasions on various occasions, led to the fencing in of terraces. You can talk about the thousands of Liverpool fans who turns up ticketless and were pushing and shoving outside the stadium, and fatally inept policing decisions, but if it hadn't been for hooligans there would have been no fences to trap fans in the pens. Was that ever mentioned in the Hillsborough inquest, probably not. Terraces are dangerous places and should not be brought back, just remember Bolton FA cup disaster, Hyjsel, Inbrox etc.

The point is, the proposed safe standing areas which seem to work so well in Germany, in packed stadiums may I add, are nothing at all like the

old terracing, May I politely suggest you do a bit of research.

In fact I would say seating, where thousands of people are standing ie; most away fans, are probably more dangerous.

[ABBEY]

They may have safe areas but the fans are still treated like scum with fences penning them

In .

[West Yorks Rover]

They may have safe areas but the fans are still treated like scum with fences penning them

In .

True they do have fences, not sure they're treated like scum though, they have waiter service for beer brought to your seat. I'd say

that's quite civilised.

[Stuart]

Since it is very relevant to the debate around safe standing, and will be the elephant in the room for a long time to come, I thought I'd share this first person account that popped into my Fb feed this evening...

Originally posted by Andy Frith (and shared by a friend):

I have considered carefully what I want to say here about Hillsborough. The media coverage over the past few days, comments in the House of Commons and the suspension of the South Yorkshire Chief Constable all persuade me to post my thoughts.

I was a Constable, Sergeant and Inspector in South Yorkshire Police and served 17yrs before leaving to run a family business. I was there on the pitch at Hillsborough when the tragedy occurred working as a PC in a public order serial which had been called into the ground when the shout went up for assistance.

I witnessed the lack of command. The almost complete radio silence from the control room at the ground and the ridiculous decision to line up our serial in front of the Notts fans to prevent a pitch invasion whilst people at the Leppings Lane end were in obvious trouble.

I broke ranks at that moment with several other officers and began helping the injured from the pitch because it was obvious that senior commanders were not reacting to the situation as they should have been.

There is no doubt in my mind that poor policing decisions led to the deaths that day and it comes as no surprise that those in charge tried to deflect the blame. The culture in the force at that time was demonstrated in person by the majority of the Chief Superintendents and senior Command team. I have never come across a more arrogant, pompous and unlikeable group of individuals. They had absolute power over their Divisions (Districts now) and were completely unaccountable. What they said went and they were completely but mistakenly self assured in their ability.

That it took so long to discover the depth of the cover up from the then Chief Constable Peter Wright to the Chief Superintendents and those under their direct command is no surprise to me as no one would have dared to speak out.

What does offend me however is the headline in todays edition of i which screams ROTTEN TO THE CORE. Well that's not true either. The huge majority of officers on duty that day did just that their duty. They helped where they could, used initiative when the chain of command failed and should be commended for their work.

The current Chief Constable David Compton has been suspended by the Police and Crime Commissioner Dr Alan Billings. Yes he takes responsibility for the force but he wasn't there 27 years ago. It looks as though he was suspended because he tried to defend his force during the inquest proceedings. I think our Dr Billings is coming up for re election and needs to be able to say to the electorate look how tough I am. This has nothing to do with proportionality.

And the fans yes like all football crowds some of their number were intoxicated. I know because I saw it and we were confiscating beer from vehicles all morning. A huge haul of trays of lager and beer cans which had been brought to drink before the match. This was nothing unusual. This was the culture at the time and the reason fans were penned in like sheep at all grounds. Their behaviour in the previous decade had necessitated separation because of continued violence. So to say the fans had no responsibility is also wrong. Perhaps on the day the fans did not contribute directly to the 96 deaths but as a group their general behaviour over previous years had led to the point of wire cages on terraces.

Yes, let the people responsible face the music. Yes let Chief Superintendent Duckenfield and his immediate team be called to account but please don't call South Yorkshire Police rotten to the core. It wasn't then and I don't believe it is now.

It's me on the right by the way.

[Baz]

The reason why Hillsborough and all seater stadiums happened was because of football hooligans. Their behaviour including pitch invasions on various occasions, led to the fencing in of terraces. You can talk about the thousands of Liverpool fans who turns up ticketless and were pushing and shoving outside the stadium, and fatally inept policing decisions, but if it hadn't been for hooligans there would have been no fences to trap fans in the pens. Was that ever mentioned in the Hillsborough inquest, probably not. Terraces are dangerous places and should not be brought back, just remember Bolton FA cup disaster, Hyjsel, Inbrox etc.

I think you should consider reviewing the facts of Hillsborough, before making comments about ticketless fans and pushing and shoving.

There was a 2 hour documentary on BBC2 tonight, which is available on iplayer tomorrow, as a starting point.

Incidentally, I would be for the re-introduction of safe standing areas (within home areas to begin with, so you know who is in there), along the lines of what I saw in Leverkusen (seat and integrated crush barrier). Much safer than the everyone stood up in the seated areas approach in some stadia.