[Archived] Is world war 3 about to kick off, starting in Ukraine

[yoda]

Less a project than the natural progression of any civilisation; as one becomes dominant it destroys the alternatives, but that's another discussion.

Anyway, you're so fixated on annexation being the only relevant point that you missed the vast majority of the issue, along with the fact that it wasn't me that listed the eastern European affiliates of NATO.

At the heart of the UN Charter is the right to self-determination (Chapter 1, Article 1), Crimea exercised that right. If you don't accept the results of the 2014 plebiscite then go back to the poll held in 1992 where the majority voted for Crimean independence with the ultimate intention of becoming part of Russia; there were no Russian soldiers holding the public buildings then.

So no, NATO has not annexed any eastern European nations, but then none of their citizens have ever voted for such action either, which makes them quite different to Crimea. What NATO has done in Ukraine is use NGOs and support for neo-Nazi groups to bring about regime change against the will of at least half the population.

I accept it actually when it is a free vote and not looking down the barrel of a gun.

I also think because Crimea was officialy part of the Ukraine, then all of the Ukraine should have voted, like the whole of the UK should be voting to kick the Scotts out.

Russia only wants the Crimea as a holiday resort for the Oligarchs anyway,

Whereas the west are trying to progress the one world order and it looks like the UN are onside now,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26776416

[Jeru tha Damaja]

I accept it actually when it is a free vote and not looking down the barrel of a gun.

I also think because Crimea was officialy part of the Ukraine, then all of the Ukraine should have voted, like the whole of the UK should be voting to kick the Scotts out.

Russia only wants the Crimea as a holiday resort for the Oligarchs anyway,

Whereas the west are trying to progress the one world order and it looks like the UN are onside now,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26776416

So you accept the 1992 referendum in Crimea then? In which case you must believe that its incorporation into the Russian Federation is over 20 years overdue.

As far as the whole country voting, does that mean all of Yugoslavia should have voted before that country was carved up? If so then the NATO intervention in Kosovo starts to look criminal.

Should all of Russia not have voted before Crimea was given away to Ukraine in the first place?

[yoda]

So you accept the 1992 referendum in Crimea then? In which case you must believe that its incorporation into the Russian Federation is over 20 years overdue.

As far as the whole country voting, does that mean all of Yugoslavia should have voted before that country was carved up? If so then the NATO intervention in Kosovo starts to look criminal.

Should all of Russia not have voted before Crimea was given away to Ukraine in the first place?

nobody in Russia argued with or questioned Nikita Khrushchev

That referendum was carried out while still part of the Ukraine SSR which was part of the USSR and if you read the history the Crimean autonomous government reached an agreement/compromise with the Ukraine government that granted Crimea Autonomous Republic status. The Crimean government later changed the ball game.

The Russians just believe it belongs to them and have taken it back, who is next?

[thenodrog]

I accept it actually when it is a free vote and not looking down the barrel of a gun.

I also think because Crimea was officialy part of the Ukraine, then all of the Ukraine should have voted, like the whole of the UK should be voting to kick the Scotts out.

Russia only wants the Crimea as a holiday resort for the Oligarchs anyway,

Whereas the west are trying to progress the one world order and it looks like the UN are onside now,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26776416

The resorts around Europe no doubt wish that were true.

[yoda]

The resorts around Europe no doubt wish that were true.

Not sure about that, lots of crime seems to follow them

[Jeru tha Damaja]

nobody in Russia argued with or questioned Nikita Khrushchev

That referendum was carried out while still part of the Ukraine SSR which was part of the USSR and if you read the history the Crimean autonomous government reached an agreement/compromise with the Ukraine government that granted Crimea Autonomous Republic status. The Crimean government later changed the ball game.

The Russians just believe it belongs to them and have taken it back, who is next?

And 30 years from now people will be saying nobody argued with Putin.

[yoda]

And 30 years from now people will be saying nobody argued with Putin.

Pussy riot did

[Guest Norbert]

And a fair amount of people after the dodgy election a year or two ago.

[Jeru tha Damaja]

But people remember outcomes, not failed opposition. Putin is still in control in Russia and Russia remains in charge in Crimea, everything else is peripheral.

We are now at the point where President Obama called Putin, not to discuss a Russian exit from Crimea, but to plead with him not to take any more of Ukraine. Clearly the White House is accepting new realities rather than concerning itself with matters that would be too costly to change.

[thenodrog]

We are now at the point where President Obama called Putin, not to discuss a Russian exit from Crimea, but to plead with him not to take any more of Ukraine. Clearly the White House is accepting new realities rather than concerning itself with matters that would be too costly to change.

'plead' might be a taj too strong a word Jeru. Thing is Putin was backed up by election results (we are lead to believe), whilst it sounds like the rest of the Ukraine would vote the other way.

Historically though (and I cant be bothered studying up) it's the usual age old conflict isn't it? Muslims v The rest of the World. Crimea (with it's Tartar white slavers history) was shoved under Ukranian rule by the Soviets causing all round resentment just as the European Empirical countries caused resentment all over the globe in their efforts to carve up conquered countries and force primitive societies and traditional enemies to co-habit.

btw My barber's an Iraqui Kurd and he blames their troubles on the Brits for wrapping them up under Baghdad and Ankara rule generations back. I told him it's prob their own fault for backing the wrong horse in WW1. Pretty bold really given his proximity to his cut throat!

[Guest Norbert]

If Ukraine and Moldova are in Eurovision, that could be fun come voting time. Normally countries that have been whacking the crap out of each other for 300 years give each other big points ('Sorry for that time we burnt your city to the ground and raped your great grandma, here's 10 points'), as well as regional friends.

[yoda]

If Ukraine and Moldova are in Eurovision, that could be fun come voting time. Normally countries that have been whacking the crap out of each other for 300 years give each other big points ('Sorry for that time we burnt your city to the ground and raped your great grandma, here's 10 points'), as well as regional friends.

That's it, genius, blame the Eurovision song contest for everything,

[Guest Norbert]

I'm not blaming Eurovision, just wondering how the dodgy voting patterns will be affected by what's gone on.

[yoda]

I want to blame the Eurovison,

what if Putin is actually @#/? that they have not won it for a while and has decided to reform the USSR in order to give him a better chance,

Doctor No will be working on a solution as we type

[Guest Norbert]

OK, I'll join in as it sounds fun. Actually, I think something slightly different is going on. Reforming the USSR would mean fewer points as the Eastern bloc countries usually vote for each other. I think Putin is beating up Ukraine, so they can pretend to like each other later and award each other 10 or 12 points. It'll be like Serbia and Bosnia, or Germany and Israel constantly doing that. Then other countries that do not want to be invaded will go out of their way to please Putin, especially if they're former members of the USSR.

[old darwen blue]

Cracking idea actually, stuff the threats of war etc. Let's just have a singing contest to decide the outcome.

However on a serious note we need to tell our politicians that they can threaten each other with peaceful economic and diplomatic sanctions but the general populace who put them in their jobs does not want wars any longer. Have we learnt nothing of what happened between 1914-18 and 1939-45?

[Guest Norbert]

I always wonder when I think of that famous football match in 1914, what would happen if the soldiers en masse said "stuff all this shooting business, we're not fighting any more." Obviously the officers behind the desks and politicians will be ordering firing squads to get ready, but if the numbers refusing got to a few thousand either side, there would be a momentum that might be self perpetuating. However, there was a lot of nationalistic propaganda that led to the tension before that war started, so that probably made such a situation unlikely, as both sides were pumped up with nationalist anger.

[Guest Norbert]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/vladimir-putin-wants-to-regain-finland-for-russia-adviser-says-9224273.html

Well I hope this is not true, otherwise it would really be World War 3.

[thenodrog]

Look on the bright side Norbert. A good few nuclear strikes dotted around the Northern hemisphere will chuck tonnes and tonnes of dust into the atmosphere and all that global warming from the other thread will go into a sharp reverse.

[Guest Norbert]

Not sure there will be a silver lining to a mushroom cloud, with all that radiation etc.

Finland would be a real sign Putin has got megalomania, as it is an EU country and probably a member of NATO. So Russia would be at war with the EU, and probably the USA too. China wouldn't be happy since he'd be attacking a business partner so they might be awkward too. It won't happen for these reasons unless Putin goes completely off the rails.

[Steve Kean's Hypnotoad]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/vladimir-putin-wants-to-regain-finland-for-russia-adviser-says-9224273.html

Well I hope this is not true, otherwise it would really be World War 3.

Waiting for Wilpshire Blue to somehow astonishingly turn this into a rant about America.

[yoda]

Not sure there will be a silver lining to a mushroom cloud, with all that radiation etc.

Finland would be a real sign Putin has got megalomania, as it is an EU country and probably a member of NATO. So Russia would be at war with the EU, and probably the USA too. China wouldn't be happy since he'd be attacking a business partner so they might be awkward too. It won't happen for these reasons unless Putin goes completely off the rails.

Not a member of NATO

[Guest Norbert]

Ah right. I didn't know. Still, Finland is part of the EU, so if Vladimir did have a go, there would be a debate and vote in the EU Parliament*, and then a vote for the Commissioners to formulate a statement possibly saying that member states should get together to discuss what to do. Then the various Chancellors, Prime Ministers etc. will meet to try and work out a common policy they can all agree on. Germany will not want war (suppressing dormant urges), the French won't really care unless they benefit, and we will not be involved in any EU led military operation, but the Polish and Baltic states will urge everyone to kick Russian arse.

After this meeting, there will be a statement from the EU saying that invading Finland will have 'dire consequences' if Russia does not withdraw from the by now conquered Finland (it'll be at least 6 months after the first attack at least), there will be a ban on exporting olive oil, cars, French cheese and pork pies to Russia from the EU. Then the whole process will be repeated again as Putin ignores those measures and builds up the army near Belarus and the Baltic states.

*=If he was really clever, he'd time the invasion just when the Parliament is moving between Strasbourg and Brussels.

[Steve Moss]

Here's a pretty good article about the USA's Strategic Oil Reserve and how it can be used to financially cripple Russia:

http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2014/03/30/america-may-have-just-unveiled-a-new-weapon-to-com.aspx

[Guest Norbert]

Would the USA sell some of that oil slightly cheaper to the EU to offset any blips in the Russian imports, or will it be solely for US consumption?

Anyway, I think Ukraine will be able to look after themselves if they vote for this guy. Putin would not be a problem for long.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/ukraine-darth-vader-turns-up-3301360